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Replaying Baldur's Gate

Claw

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Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Realms of fucking Arkania.

Food, getting drunk, bad weather. Worn out shoes, winter clothes. Broken swords. My elf had the cold most of the time. The whole party got wound fever after a hard battle. It was glorious.
 

Atrokkus

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It strikes me odd that you argue on the features being not original or "revolutionary". Alright, one game had it earlier, so what? Some of the stuff Fallout has have been done before, so what? It does NOTHING to prove the game being worse in any way.
 

bryce777

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mEtaLL1x said:
It strikes me odd that you argue on the features being not original or "revolutionary". Alright, one game had it earlier, so what? Some of the stuff Fallout has have been done before, so what? It does NOTHING to prove the game being worse in any way.

I agree with that in principle, but it's all been done before, but much better, when it comes to BG. There is no wow factor I can possibly imagine from any part of the game. Everything about it from the art to the story is as generic as possible. The production values are really pretty bad compared to other games that came out around the same time, and even many games before it, as well.

The best thing about it is possibly the item descriptions, and that is hardly enough to make it a classic, especially considering its flaws and foibles.
 

bryce777

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mEtaLL1x said:
It strikes me odd that you argue on the features being not original or "revolutionary". Alright, one game had it earlier, so what? Some of the stuff Fallout has have been done before, so what? It does NOTHING to prove the game being worse in any way.

I agree with that in principle, but it's all been done before, but much better, when it comes to BG. There is no wow factor I can possibly imagine from any part of the game. Everything about it from the art to the story is as generic as possible. The production values are really pretty bad compared to other games that came out around the same time, and even many games before it, as well.

The best thing about it is possibly the item descriptions, and that is hardly enough to make it a classic, especially considering its flaws and foibles.
 

DemonKing

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bryce777 said:
The production values are really pretty bad compared to other games that came out around the same time, and even many games before it, as well.

What are you smoking - BG had hands down the best production values of any CRPG to date at the time of release. Hell - one of my buddies even used to wax lyrical about the joy of casting a simple cure light wounds spell in BG!

The production values of FO 1 & 2 looked pretty weak in comparison, IMHO - and those were contemporary products.
 

Kuato

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[quote="DemonKing"}
The production values of FO 1 & 2 looked pretty weak in comparison, IMHO - and those were contemporary products.[/quote]

Fallout 1 and 2 had much better VO (Richard Dean Anderson,Richard Moll, Michael Dorn,and Ron Perlman) and a much better soundtrack, BGs lip synching was awful wait a minute BG didn't even have characters high enough res to have lips:)

..and of course to this day I dont think anyone has come close to touching Fallouts death animations certainly not BG
 

kris

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Relien said:
Many incredibly stupid wilderness 'areas' where all you had to do was uncover the FOW over the rectangular bitmap.

Personally I liked this. where there was wilderness areas that wasn't critical for the game in any way. I am not sure I like the BG2 way more when it comes to this. Only problem here was they had to many of these that you where FORCED to go trough to proceed, there should be a limit on how many obstacles you force the players to meet. Let them instead choose themself if they want to explore and find things. (I suppose it have to do with game lenght...).

I liked BG whence it came even if some complaints are very valid. Especially the pathfinding issues and the effect they had on combat, exploring and simply getting trough a doorway.
 

Section8

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How would food work in a game like fallout, when you needed to get somewhere that was a 2-3 weeks hike? Yeah, you would have to stop twice on the way and it would be just plain annoying. BaK's food thingy was nothing but annoying. You had a limited supply and it wasn't about pawning loot, but inventory space.

Well, Fallout wouldn't fare well, not so much on the food count, but with water. That little Vault 13 flask isn't going to get you very far across the parched wasteland. But it doesn't necessarily demand realism, nor direct management. It's not like you had to manually update the little "n days left!!" post-it. Food and water supplies can be decremented automatically during travel, and outdoorsman could possibly be tied into the finding of adequate nutriment along the way.

But, I don't think it would really be appropriate to Fallout. The world is so immense and sparsely populated that it would be pretty unreasonable to demand the player consume food and water, since they tend to spend a lot of time more than a week or two's travel away from a known supply of food and water. I think it's an itch better left unscratched with Fallout's current incarnation.

Thinking beyond that, and into the theoretical though, there's some interesting aspects to the idea of drinking and eating irradiated food and water.

In Betrayal at Krondor, your annoyance could quite rightly be termed "depth" by another player. All those rations getting in the way of your loot? Then you have a serious choice to make. Annoyance at that is like a kid throwing a hissy fit because their parents couldn't afford the gift they asked Santa to get them. You're not getting what you want, so you're pissed.

But what's wrong with a game saying "Tough luck, inventory management is an issue you have to deal with!" If nothing else, it's a good life lesson for the kiddies.

People complained about Fallout's time limit, finding Caius Cosades and a whole host of things that I see as legitimate portions of the challenge the game provides. Sometimes I think that a great deal of gamers don't actually want a challenge, they just want to get from start to fininsh with all haste, so they can complain about how short the game was.

I rather have no food in a game than that kind of food thing. Sure different consequences and health status are nice but it all comes down to being annoying.

As I say above, it troubles me that "annoying" aspects such as food management are deemed such because players are unwilling to face any kind of real consequence. It's the same line of thinking that leads to the Elder Scrolls' "jack of all trades, master of all guilds, no limit to what I can do, because I am the fucking uebermensch!" shit.

...production values...

I think a few of us are on different pages here. To me "Production Values" is more an encompassment of a theoretical end result than a measure of production quality. Saying "I want every character to have full VO" is a high production value, regardless of how shitty it might turn out to be. Saying "I want a 30 second cutscene as the player enters each town" is likewise a high production value, even if the quality is shite. "I want each map to be individually rendered as a huge fucking bitmap" etc.

And that's exactly what Baldur's Gate had. About 5 CDs worth of high production values. Aspirations to include massive amounts of superfluous content. And in the opinion of the minority we represent here, it was generally of bad quality, and the game would've been better off without it.

But there are folks out there that are more concerned with the fact that all dialogue is voiced, than whether or not any of those voices are competently acted. Just like there are people that are more interested in how pretty something looks than what substance it has. Or the fact that a game has recognised Hollywood B-Actors, rather than the actual end result of their VO sessions.
 

kris

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Section8 said:
In Betrayal at Krondor, your annoyance could quite rightly be termed "depth" by another player. All those rations getting in the way of your loot? Then you have a serious choice to make. Annoyance at that is like a kid throwing a hissy fit because their parents couldn't afford the gift they asked Santa to get them. You're not getting what you want, so you're pissed.

But what's wrong with a game saying "Tough luck, inventory management is an issue you have to deal with!" If nothing else, it's a good life lesson for the kiddies.

As I say above, it troubles me that "annoying" aspects such as food management are deemed such because players are unwilling to face any kind of real consequence. It's the same line of thinking that leads to the Elder Scrolls' "jack of all trades, master of all guilds, no limit to what I can do, because I am the fucking uebermensch!" shit.

Its even more funny considering the popularity of the sims where you have to do everything from taking a dump to be entertained. Personally I would prefer more of these things in a roleplaying game (forget about the "taking a dump" part, except for in some situations where you coudl cleaverly have it in as plot device). From a pure roleplaying experience it woudl be much better having such things in with the consequences. Getting sick, having injuries that actually affect you, mental states, desires and such. If you have eating in general in the game you can have it is a game device, otherwise this can always be used as plot/quest device (need to find cure).
 

Atrokkus

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I like BG2 a lot (haven't played BG1).
There are several features that I consider well done:
1. interaction between party members
2. story
3. graphic design (characters design, architecture etc)
4. side-quests that gave some choice and a good story, despite the linearity of main plotline.
5. personalities (whatever people may say, but I consider Jon Irenicus one of the most stylish and interesting npcs ever)


1 and 4 are aspects that allow us to consider BG2 an RPG, not just an adventure.

People complained about Fallout's time limit, finding Caius Cosades and a whole host of things that I see as legitimate portions of the challenge the game provides.
Complaining about its time limit is stupid, clearly. The story was this way, it would be stupid and way too unrealistic to say that it'll take little time to get the vault inhabitants dead, but ingame it would be make-believe, like "well, you would hurry, wouldn't you, dear player?" WEll fuck that!
Time-limit on certain quests is just great, and I wish they had implemented more of it.

However, the issue with FO1 is that BIS actually could (or maybe not) made a possiblity for continuing the game after threat to the world being dealt with. However, that would involve a lot of work, because the wasteland would had to be changed drastically.
 

Jinxed

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The "wow" factor in BG for me was atmosphere. Great music and very nice inventory artwork. BG allowed you to go to places and experience things I've never experienced or went to in a CRPG before, and it was all done in such a way that felt like PnP, thanks to using a system I've used before, and the setting. Vampires, cursed woods, abandoned tower etc. It allowed me to kill creatures straight out of the monster manual, which I kept handy throughtout my entire gaming, often looking up the creatures and going "ah, yes, yes :)" I used the players manual constantly as well.

In PnP, food was often the reason for tension. I or the entire party was often forced to split rations, going hungry, hell we even had to resort to being bandits. It was plenty fun and never a bother, figuring out what to do to survive was part of the game. In CRPG however, it always felt like a distraction. Every situation in PnP can be resorted in many different ways and it never really feels repeative. I can't say the same for CRPGs. If you're forced to do the same thing over and over throughout the game it's just a dumb chore and adds nothing.
 

bryce777

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kris said:
Section8 said:
In Betrayal at Krondor, your annoyance could quite rightly be termed "depth" by another player. All those rations getting in the way of your loot? Then you have a serious choice to make. Annoyance at that is like a kid throwing a hissy fit because their parents couldn't afford the gift they asked Santa to get them. You're not getting what you want, so you're pissed.

But what's wrong with a game saying "Tough luck, inventory management is an issue you have to deal with!" If nothing else, it's a good life lesson for the kiddies.

As I say above, it troubles me that "annoying" aspects such as food management are deemed such because players are unwilling to face any kind of real consequence. It's the same line of thinking that leads to the Elder Scrolls' "jack of all trades, master of all guilds, no limit to what I can do, because I am the fucking uebermensch!" shit.

Its even more funny considering the popularity of the sims where you have to do everything from taking a dump to be entertained. Personally I would prefer more of these things in a roleplaying game (forget about the "taking a dump" part, except for in some situations where you coudl cleaverly have it in as plot device). From a pure roleplaying experience it woudl be much better having such things in with the consequences. Getting sick, having injuries that actually affect you, mental states, desires and such. If you have eating in general in the game you can have it is a game device, otherwise this can always be used as plot/quest device (need to find cure).

You also go for months and years at a time with zero time off. Someone would go completelyc razy like that. I liked how in pirates, your crew would grow more discontent over time as you spent longer at sea.
 

Deacdo

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Oct 24, 2004
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I got BG2 and the expansion for cheap a while back. Does anyone recommend any of the mods? I never did finish the game (never even tried the expansion), so I though I'd give a go with a mod installed (new kits could be cool).
 

Volourn

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BG series is awesome. Anyone who thinks otherwise is retarded. Plain, and simple.
 

Mefi

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Volourn said:
BG series is awesome. Anyone who thinks otherwise is retarded. Plain, and simple.

Urgh. I must have had too much beer or something but I'm in agreement with Volourn about BG.

Great games for their time. I actually enjoyed a recent revisit to BG 1. Sure there are flaws but it is still a joy to play.
 

Section8

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In PnP, food was often the reason for tension. I or the entire party was often forced to split rations, going hungry, hell we even had to resort to being bandits. It was plenty fun and never a bother, figuring out what to do to survive was part of the game. In CRPG however, it always felt like a distraction. Every situation in PnP can be resorted in many different ways and it never really feels repeative. I can't say the same for CRPGs. If you're forced to do the same thing over and over throughout the game it's just a dumb chore and adds nothing.

Well, yeah, but I like to idealise CRPG design to consider what can be done. However, I think simple systems could be effective, and I believe have probably been done, though I can't cite specific examples.

Actually, staying at an inn in Darklands to work/train/study encompasses some good ideas that could be applied to camping/traveling in a typical CRPG. Even the stationary tasks for JA2 mercs could be adapted.

ie, My party is camped out. I can specify for each member, certain tasks. Like sleeping, keeping watch, healing, brewing potions, memorising spells, or relevant to this discussion, hunting, gathering, cooking, etc.

If you want everyone to rest, then you bear the risk of surprise attacks (no watchman), or maybe you can use a spell, tripwires or some other method. Also, unless you're out looking for food/water you'll have supply your own, once again through a range of methods.

All of this is integrated into the camp/travel interfaces and at any other time is transparent to the player. Now that's fairly painless, and adds depth fairly easily. With an established system you could further expand upon it. Maybe certain tasks trigger encounters, like a hunter/gatherer being set upon by something. You then have a combat encounter that plays out very differently to the usual group dynamic.

But damn, I wish I could actually find a P&P session in this town...
 

Jinxed

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The problem with this is that it just wouldn't be dynamic enough. In PnP you never know what to expect. In CRPG you start to notice patterns sooner or later and that's when it becomes less fun until you wish it wasn't even implemented altogether.

Personally, I think it's a dead end. Developers don't have time to work x hours creating realistic and dynamic food/resting mechanics. I'd rather have an interesting story and other things than that. The problem is that if food makes it into the game, it is half assed and gives off the impression that it is thrown in just for the sake of being there.
 

bryce777

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Section8 said:
In PnP, food was often the reason for tension. I or the entire party was often forced to split rations, going hungry, hell we even had to resort to being bandits. It was plenty fun and never a bother, figuring out what to do to survive was part of the game. In CRPG however, it always felt like a distraction. Every situation in PnP can be resorted in many different ways and it never really feels repeative. I can't say the same for CRPGs. If you're forced to do the same thing over and over throughout the game it's just a dumb chore and adds nothing.

Well, yeah, but I like to idealise CRPG design to consider what can be done. However, I think simple systems could be effective, and I believe have probably been done, though I can't cite specific examples.

Actually, staying at an inn in Darklands to work/train/study encompasses some good ideas that could be applied to camping/traveling in a typical CRPG. Even the stationary tasks for JA2 mercs could be adapted.

ie, My party is camped out. I can specify for each member, certain tasks. Like sleeping, keeping watch, healing, brewing potions, memorising spells, or relevant to this discussion, hunting, gathering, cooking, etc.

If you want everyone to rest, then you bear the risk of surprise attacks (no watchman), or maybe you can use a spell, tripwires or some other method. Also, unless you're out looking for food/water you'll have supply your own, once again through a range of methods.

All of this is integrated into the camp/travel interfaces and at any other time is transparent to the player. Now that's fairly painless, and adds depth fairly easily. With an established system you could further expand upon it. Maybe certain tasks trigger encounters, like a hunter/gatherer being set upon by something. You then have a combat encounter that plays out very differently to the usual group dynamic.

But damn, I wish I could actually find a P&P session in this town...

Darklands, in short. Well, except for the food.
 

Jora

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Section8 said:
ie, My party is camped out. I can specify for each member, certain tasks. Like sleeping, keeping watch, healing, brewing potions, memorising spells, or relevant to this discussion, hunting, gathering, cooking, etc.
J.E. Sawyer actually wanted to implement that in Baldur's Gate 3.

Oh, now I'm crying again.

One thing I once thought would be cool in an eating/drinking system is that if there was, for example, an enemy fortress your character would like to enter, he could cast a spell to poison their well and wait for a while for everyone to get poisoned/sick.

Like Claw, I too would love to see diseases play a bigger role in games. They could affect the player like the radioactive areas (the Glow) in Fallout depending on your stats/traits/advantages/disadvantages. Healing would actually become an interesting skill: the higher the skill, the more knowledgeable you would become of different diseases and their cures. Rulers and the rich would pay you handsomely for saving their lives from rare diseases unknown to most healers. They could make you their trusted councellor which would make your persuasion skill useful and allow you to affect the world with your words of advice... This kind of thing has been a daydream of mine for quite some time.
 

AnalogKid

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I'll say a few positive things about BG1 (or try, at least)...

The #1 reason I was excited about it was party-based tactical combat. No game that I was aware of had presented such opportunities since the goldbox games. I'm the opposite of the "RTwP = arcade" crowd. I put "pause at end of every character's turn" on and actually played it like a turn-based game (not that it was, exactly, but that's how I played it). This was particularly fun in the D&D ruleset, where every character is essentially a specialist and the party needed to be clever to survive. I was stunned when my friend started complaining that she couldn't get through a few of the battles. It turns out she wasn't using potions, wasn't using good party tactics, and was basically just trying to play the game without enough pausing and planning.

The #2 reason I liked it was the D&D license. I spent 2 years on their forum trying to figure out exactly how the thief's stealth skills would work, and how the pseudo-specialization rules would end up being implemented, among other details. This doesn't defend BG1 as a good game, but it's a huge part of why I was interested in it.

The #3 reason I liked it was it's "revolutionary" nature. I think a lot of people are unfarily downplaying how incredibly "new" this game was as a whole. Not necessarily any single feature, but the integration of all the features into one game. It was the first game I ever owned that came on more than 1 CD! All that artwork! The "EPIC" story! The promise of continued adventure in future sequals! The introduction of cooperative multiplayer! The exploration options! The "level mill", which wasn't a grind back then because MMO's weren't mainstream and the concept of getting more powerful was actually still fresh! So many other things... There would be no PS:T to compare NPCs against if it weren't for BG1's inital attempts at interesting NPCs.

I know the #3 paragraph is essentially a fanboi manifesto, and I won't spend a lot of time defending each point individually. My purpose is to point out that the game was hyped as, and imo delivered, a very new and different game experience to anything that came before. Bard's Tale, Wizardry, M&M, all had parties but not the tactical postioning or depth of the D&D ruleset, nor non-robot party NPCs. (I got irrationally pissed of at the Ultima series around Ultima 2, so I can't say anything about what it had to offer.)

Remember also that back then, games were still largely for kids (or at most, college kids like I was). They weren't made for bitter 40-year olds with jobs and money to burn on monthly fees or collectible cards. The overall impression and atmosphere were important, insofar as they connected with young, inexperienced minds. I guess that's actually still true today, witness what's happening to TES games. Minsc IS funny. Humour is a personal preference, therefore many won't agree.

BG2 improved a lot of things mechanically, but I wasn't ever able to finish it. By the time I got about 1/2 way through, the "coolness" and "freshness" were gone and I was left to see pretty much all the little faults that everyone here is bitching about inRe: BG1.

The only thing that really pissed me off when I was playing BG1 was the pathfinding. But I made up for it by making my own "multiplayer" party with only 2 characters (a mage and a fighter/thief) and then using the other slots just to have some hopefully interesting NPCs. I killed Jaheira ASAP, and booted her pansy boot-licker. Building up and finding ways to use my 2 guys was awesome fun! (OK, the mines sucked balls but with a hidden thief who can backstab-instakill those fucking Kobolds it wasn't so bad)

BG1 doesn't stand the test of time like other games do. I wouldn't consider going back and trying to replay it like I would consider Wastelands or Fallout, but at the time it was made it delivered an extremely fun few weeks of playtime.
 

ElastiZombie

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I don't know how many hours I have spent playing BG and the sequel, but they are two of the few games that blew me away at the time that they were released and still give me hours of entertainment each time I go back to replay them. They are by no means perfect (what game is?) but they have just the right combination of elements to equal fun.

One thing I wasn't crazy about was the character portraits and voice set choices, but if you didn't like them either you could always make your own portraits and voice sets fairly easily. A friend of mine made a few based on Scottish comedian Billy Connelly, Bob and Doug Mackenizie, the Big Lebowski, and others. This added a new dimension of hilarity to my game. As for the humour being lame, I actually found it to be funny, but as I am Canadian, maybe that explains it. :D
 

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