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Jarpie

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Codex 2012 MCA
* I think Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld, Daggerfall & Morrowind, etc aren't arpgs, but pure crpgs in real time, because there is a fundamental difference with Dark Souls or Diablo clones: Character skills, formulas and rng are more relevant in regard combat success than player reflexes.
Do you really want to die on a hill defending that Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder - AKA "combat tango" games - do not rely heavily on player reflexes?
Original Dungeon Master has a quite a bit less of "combat tango" than, say Legend of Grimrock does, have you even ever played the original DM? there are some enemies which hits like a motherfucker, but not as many as in Grimrock.
Pressing back = relying heavily on reflexes now. :lol:
OK, I get that the point is that you can use reflexes to dodge, but saying that something like EOB relies heavily on it, as much as something like DS or Diablo, is as retarded as saying that DE has combat.
I never said "Dungeon Master requires as much reflexes as Dark Souls", but if you differentiate "normal" RPGs from Action-RPGs based on whether player reflexes matter, then Diablo, Dark Souls AND all Real-Time Blobbers should all be in the same category. That was the whole point.

FFS, Chaos Strikes Back starts with you unarmed, in the dark, in a large room full of monsters and you have to walk around collecting weapons, equipping them, casting spells, dodging enemies and killing them one by one - all in real-time. Of course player reflexes plays a big role.

This is probably a bit pedantic, but CSB was made for "Dungeon Master" experts, and it's very much designed for those who knows the systems inside and out, it's like throwing someone to start DM from the level 8 or 9 dungeon without anything aka "Good fucking luck". CSB is much more like Grimrock in that it requires more of reflexes and timing than Dungeon Master, and I don't think we'll ever see the dungeon design again like it was in CSB, I remember it being pretty fucking devilish, but it's been a good while since I played it last.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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By those metrics tactical games like XCom would be the most exemplary cRPGs.
Squad-based tactics games are similar to the miniatures wargaming from which D&D arose; they have half the elements of RPGs, but are lacking character progression/customization as well as the exploration elements. X-Com took squad-based tactics, added a strategic overlay with base-building and also some character stats with a bit of progression (through actions related to the stats) but can't be an RPG because it doesn't have any exploration.

Admittedly, X-Com, Jagged Alliance 2, and similar games are closer to being RPGs than Disco Elysium. :martini:

Why can't this be looked at in the opposite way. If RPGs emerged from miniature wargames then it follows that there was a desire to create something new and distinct from miniature wargames, which is where the improvisational storytelling and exploration aspects come in. Moving further away from a reliance on combat as a fundamental component isn't moving further away from RPGs, it's moving further away from wargames; if anything it is making RPGs more uniquely their own genre that doesn't rely on being defined by the very style of game it chose to separate itself from.


I still think Disco Elysium is gay shit
RPGs as a genre are far less combat-focused than miniatures wargames / squad-based tactics games, which are more or less entirely about combat. However, combat (or some kind of confrontation substituting for combat) is still a fundamental component of the RPG genre. And Disco Elysium doesn't have either combat or exploration. :M

If you like Dungeons & Dragons so much, why you don't keep playing Dungeon & Dragons? Is one of the most mainstream and popular tabletop-RPG in existence today. Is the one with most adaptations to videogames.

Why you want everything to be a monopoly of one company? Why you need that every single RPG be made only for your liking? Because be aware, you're are not talking here about the quality of RPGs, for you is basically irrelevant if the mechanics of the RPG in question are good or not, only if they're centered around a specific type of combat, we can say then that you only and exclusively condemn them because you don't like them. And the only thing that would achieve is everything in the genre being the same.
As you might have guessed from my user-name, I enjoy Dungeon Master and other real-time blobbers which diminish the combat aspects of RPGs while enhancing exploration. I also enjoy the Gold Box games and similar RPGs focused on tactical combat at the expense of exploration. Also, Wizardry-likes that are more balanced in their approach. And various Open World RPGs, 3D real-time Dungeon Crawlers, Rogue-likes, JRPGs, C&C-focused RPGs, and Action RPGs. There are a multitude of discernible CRPG subgenres (as well as CRPGs that don't really fit into any existing subgenre), which differ substantially from each other, but nonetheless are all recognizably RPGs derived from Dungeons & Dragons.
 

Lord_Potato

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X-Com (the originals: Enemy Unknown and Terror from the Deep from the 90s) had no exploration?

What about the enormous alien bases, terror sites, ufo crash sites? There was a ton of dangerous and rewarding exploration.

Sure, the maps very generated from pre-fabricated elements, like in roguelikes, but they still provided some of the most memorable gaming experiences thanks to the considerable lethality of the environment.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
I propose next year a screenshot from each nominated game to be shown so at least I get a glimpse at all those obscure RPGs I'll never play.
 

Sir Crispy

Don't get old.
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LOL this list reminds me of the lineup of candidates the Democrats paraded up on stage the other night.

WHAT THE FUCK
 

Lord_Potato

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This is it, guys.

We've done it.

Now we only need to get DE into Codex 101 best rpgs evah and the Revolution will succeed!
 

Lord_Potato

Arcane
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