Review RPG Codex Review: Torment: The Explorer's Guide

[Infinitron]

I felt Prime Junta was the most qualified person available to review this.

If we had somebody who was a provenly good writer, had played lots of Numenera and Torment: Tides of Numenera, and also thought weirdness-uber-alles Jack Vance-style Dying Earth settings were the bee's knees, then maybe he could have reviewed this. But we don't, so there was no question here.

 

[Prime Junta]

My lack of enthusiasm for weirdness-über-alles settings is a bit beside the point actually. Like them or not, one important feature of Planescape: Torment was the "cosmic logic" of Planescape. If Numenera/Greater Garravia lacks that dimension, T:ToN will lack it too, and in that respect at least will be different – and, most PS:T fans would probably think, worse – than its spiritual ancestor.

I believe that argument stands regardless of how you feel about Numenera as a setting on its own merits. I do realise that's not the angle MCG would've wanted us to take, but we are a cRPG site and I think most people here are far more interested in PS:T and T:ToN than Numenera, so I thought the approach was valid.

 

[CMcC]

It's a valid concern, and one that we were concerned about as well when we licensed the setting. Planescape had the advantage of years of development before Black Isle licensed it, and a history that stretched back to AD&D. We knew it was a bit riskier to go with Numenera because we'd have to generate our history on the fly. Part of the reason we chose to set TTON in an area of our own devising is because it gave us a little more control over the history and setting, while still being able to draw on the broader Numenera lore.

I feel like we've managed to make something cohesive and logical, but then again, I'm probably just a little biased.

 

[Fenix]

Wow. Isn't Detroit a ghost-sity?

FIRED

You are too harsh, give him a chance to proove himself!11

 

[Prime Junta]

I feel like we've managed to make something cohesive and logical, but then again, I'm probably just a little biased.

I thought the Bloom was cohesive and logical, but that's not really the crux of the matter. One aspect of Torment's Torment-ness was pushing against the grand cosmic logic of the setting. PS:T was quite "sci-fi-esque" in that sense, except that the laws it was exploring were fictional: Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, the power of belief to shape reality, and so on. Apart from the Bloom, there really isn't anything like that in Greater Garravia let alone Numenera.

I also feel that T:ToN is held back by Monte's insistence that none of the past may be revealed or explained; it's just a big mass of random weird. You're sort of timidly pushing against that with the (relatively) recent history -- the Tabaht, Sagus Protectorate as a kingdom in decline etc. -- but that's all very small-scale and rather rudimentary.

Again, IMO only the Bloom has a whiff of the kind of grand setting-logic that makes for genuinely Tormenty possibilities. The rest is just your usual faction politics, although masked with a heavy layer of Weird. Not necessarily bad by any means, but you could do any of that just as well in Forgotten Realms or Fallout's Nevada (or indeed pretty much anywhere else).

 

[agris]

I just read the review again. FFS.

For example, the Guide explains that the water-breathing Ghibra of M’ra Jolios are telepathic because sound carries poorly under water (the opposite is true), and they call their militia the Tears of Ny’kul. How would an underwater race even have a concept for tears?

I don't have a dog in this fight and have the general impression that the Numa-numa setting is superficial and try-hard at the same time. That being said, you motherfuckers need a science skill-check every once and a while.

1. High frequency sounds carry poorly in water due to viscoelastic dissipation (1, 2)
2. Tears, as a concept, can exist as long as they are relatively immiscible with water. Bonus, if they're of greater density than water they'll flow with gravity as per the convention, but immiscible tears of a lower density would flow up and out of the eyes. That would certainly make an impression.

 

[Excidium II]

 

[Prime Junta]

1. High frequency sounds carry poorly in water due to viscoelastic dissipation (1, 2)

True but irrelevant. The assertion was that Ghibra are telepathic because sound carries poorly under water. This statement only makes sense if "sound carries poorly under water" would mean that sound is unsuitable as a communication medium under water. It's not. You just have to use a lower register. Just ask any humpback whale.

2. Tears, as a concept, can exist as long as they are relatively immiscible with water. Bonus, if they're of greater density than water they'll flow with gravity as per the convention, but immiscible tears of a lower density would flow up and out of the eyes. That would certainly make an impression.

You know Agris, I actually thought about this a while, and it did occur to me that Ghibra could secrete tears of black oil for example. (If they were clear, they'd hardly be visible in water even if they drifted up.) But... why would they? And assuming this kind of evolutionary/genetic-engineering change, how likely would it be that they would still be associated with sorrow?

Thing is, you can invent ex post facto rationalisations for anything if you're just allowed to make shit up without having any of it make sense, like Numenera does. "Oh, they're tears of black oil actually. Ghibra cry tears of black oil." That's what I would've done had I been caught in this blooper if it was my campaign. It's still lazy worldbuilding.

 

[felipepepe]

Thing is, you can invent ex post facto rationalisations for anything if you're just allowed to make shit up without having any of it make sense, like Numenera does. "Oh, they're tears of black oil actually. Ghibra cry tears of black oil." That's what I would've done had I been caught in this blooper if it was my campaign. It's still lazy worldbuilding.

Reminds me of Sawyer saying that those ruins in PoE made sense because they were build with Adra, so regular physics did not apply...

 

[Prime Junta]

Thing is, you can invent ex post facto rationalisations for anything if you're just allowed to make shit up without having any of it make sense, like Numenera does. "Oh, they're tears of black oil actually. Ghibra cry tears of black oil." That's what I would've done had I been caught in this blooper if it was my campaign. It's still lazy worldbuilding.

Reminds me of Sawyer saying that those ruins in PoE made sense because they were build with Adra, so regular physics did not apply...

Now that you mention it, yes, yes it does rather.

 

[Prime Junta]

Thing is, you can invent ex post facto rationalisations for anything if you're just allowed to make shit up without having any of it make sense, like Numenera does. "Oh, they're tears of black oil actually. Ghibra cry tears of black oil." That's what I would've done had I been caught in this blooper if it was my campaign. It's still lazy worldbuilding.

Reminds me of Sawyer saying that those ruins in PoE made sense because they were build with Adra, so regular physics did not apply...

Now that you mention it, yes, yes it does rather.

Which ruins in PoE?

My pet theory is that it started out as derpy design, then Sawyer came up with the "Adra!" explanation, and then they just ran with it and made more.

Reasoning: if you set out to make unnatural-looking ruins from the start, I'd expect you to come up with something materially weirder than unbalanced half-arches.

 

[80Maxwell08]

Reasoning: if you set out to make unnatural-looking ruins from the start, I'd expect you to come up with something materially weirder than unbalanced half-arches.

This is what always bothered me about that whole thing. They had free reign to do any fantastical thing they could think of, and they gave us arches that should have fallen, but didn't.

 

[Darth Roxor]

pillars of magical cement, never forget

 

[Infinitron]

grand cosmic logic of the setting

Isn't that what the Tides are?

 

[Prime Junta]

grand cosmic logic of the setting

Isn't that what the Tides are?

Going by what's been revealed of them now, no, they're not. You act in a certain way -> you become attuned -> those kinds of actions become easier and more effective. There's nothing to push against or follow there really; if you've been attuned to the red tide and suddenly decide to change tack and go blue, for a while you'll be less effective and then you'll be more effective in blue-tide things. The way they're explained in the Guide in particular doesn't even hint at grand cosmic logic -- they're just another Weird system floating around the Ninth World, and some -- but not all -- lucky characters are able to interact with it in a number of pretty crude ways.

I suppose they could introduce beings "made of" one of the tides rather than simply "being attuned" to them -- cf. demons embodying chaotic evil. There's been no hint of that as yet, though, and since the tides only deal with action rather than motivation and are inherently a lot harder to get your head around than law/chaos/good/evil, it's going to be a lot harder to come up with something as immediately relatable and tragic, or tragicomic, as Grace or Nordom.

 

[Infinitron]

Going by what's been revealed of them now, no, they're not. You act in a certain way -> you become attuned -> those kinds of actions become easier and more effective. There's nothing to push against or follow there really

I suppose they could introduce beings "made of" one of the tides rather than simply "being attuned" to them

You're looking at it from a rather mechanical perspective. "Made of" rather than "attuned" doesn't necessarily matter that much. What matters is what characters choose to do, how they define themselves. And if they're conscious of the existence of the Tides, that can make things even more interesting.

BTW did you read the novellas?

 

[Prime Junta]

You're looking at it from a rather mechanical perspective. "Made of" rather than "attuned" doesn't necessarily matter that much.

In PS:T, "made of" certainly makes an enormous difference. If Grace had been just a Chaotic Evil human thief-assassin-courtesan who decided to make a vow of chastity, she would not have been anywhere near as tragic and conflicted as she is when she's an actual embodiment of lust, evil, and chaos.

What matters is what characters choose to do. And if they're conscious of the existence of the Tides, that makes things even more interesting.

How?

BTW did you read the novellas?

I may have missed one or two, but yes, I did read most of them.

 

[Infinitron]

How?

Because then they can consciously dedicate themselves to one of the Tides, and possibly try to attune themselves to it in unexpected or devious ways, like the villainous Castoff(?) antagonist from Adam's novella.

In PS:T, "made of" certainly makes an enormous difference. If Grace had been just a Chaotic Evil human thief-assassin-courtesan who decided to make a vow of chastity, she would not have been anywhere near as tragic and conflicted as she is when she's an actual embodiment of lust, evil, and chaos.

OK, but how about if she's a Chaotic Evil thief-assassin-courtesan who has invested a large portion of her life (and let's say that's a very long time since she's from some race with immortality or longevity) devoting herself to the platonic ideal of chastity made corporeal in the form of a particular Tide, which is a real, tangible thing that is known to exist (and therefore not easily dismissed in the minds of readers as a shallow superstition). That's a bit different - a third option.

 

[Prime Junta]

That's still not "cosmic logic" or anything even close to it. It also suffers from the basic problem of the Tides: it's pretty hard to intuitively grasp what kinds of actions are attuned to which type of tide or tides. Sure, you can come up with somewhat clever character concepts -- someone who's attuned to the Indigo Tide but has fundamentally selfish motivations, say -- but from where I'm at they're nowhere near as immediately compelling.

More to the point: that struggle against cosmic laws was IMO pretty close to the core of the Torment experience. Someone cleverly exploiting one of many weird systems in the Ninth World is qualitatively different. That would be more like, say, a Lawful Good necromancer in D&D. Potentially interesting, sure, but it does not have the grand tragedy building blocks of a demon renouncing her nature or a defender of Law serving his cause beyond death.

 

[Infinitron]

More to the point: that struggle against cosmic laws was IMO pretty close to the core of the Torment experience. Someone cleverly exploiting one of many weird systems in the Ninth World is qualitatively different. That would be more like, say, a Lawful Good necromancer in D&D. Potentially interesting, sure, but it does not have the grand tragedy building blocks of a demon renouncing her nature or a defender of Law serving his cause beyond death.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that within the confines of a particular story, a character who is "made of a Tide" and a character who is merely highly attuned to one wouldn't necessarily behave or be understood by readers all that differently. Furthermore, the fact that a given character actually had to work to become attuned to a Tide (as opposed to "getting it for free" because he was born that way) could actually add tragic pathos.

 

[Roguey]

My pet theory is that it started out as derpy design, then Sawyer came up with the "Adra!" explanation, and then they just ran with it and made more.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-rogues-and-rangers.89463/page-7#post-3084815

 

[Prime Junta]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that within the confines of a particular story, a character who is "made of a Tide" and a character who is merely highly attuned to one wouldn't necessarily behave or be understood by readers all that differently.

True, and that illustrates the difference between grand cosmic laws à la Planescape and just another ancient half-understood technological system à la Numenera.

Furthermore, the fact that a given character actually had to work to become attuned to a Tide (as opposed to "getting it for free" because he was born that way) could actually add tragic pathos.

Perhaps. It would be a different kind of pathos than Torment though. PS:T had more than a touch of Greek tragedy (as did MotB for that matter). I can't see how the Tides would lend themselves to that anywhere near as well.

 

[FeelTheRads]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-rogues-and-rangers.89463/page-7#post-3084815

Yeah, keep trying.

Structures made out of adra doesn't sound like adra was just the mortar* as it turned out later when he was making up shit on the spot.

*Which is still dumbshit retarded and exactly the thing you make up on the spot.

 

[Infinitron]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that within the confines of a particular story, a character who is "made of a Tide" and a character who is merely highly attuned to one wouldn't necessarily behave or be understood by readers all that differently.

True, and that illustrates the difference between grand cosmic laws à la Planescape and just another ancient half-understood technological system à la Numenera.

I'm not sure if you understood me correctly.

P.S. I've edited some of my posts ITT so you may wish to reexamine them.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah, keep trying.

Structures made out of adra doesn't sound like adra was just the mortar* as it turned out later when he was making up shit on the spot.

*Which is still dumbshit retarded and exactly the thing you make up on the spot.

Sawyer doesn't make things up on the spot. Adra was used an excuse for artists not to care about such things. They've been through this before with Alpha Protocol.