Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Torment: Tides of Numenera

[Tacgnol]

The main issue I had with the combat was how slow and restrictive it felt.

I tend to be a bigger fan of having action points rather than the whole one move/one action system. I guess it's hard to fit APs into the whole Numenera stat pool system?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I'd imagine the reasoning for the combat system was that that's how most people ended playing PS:T, ie. avoid combat at all costs. So they wanted to design the system fitting for what they perceived as preferred playstyle of T:TON playerbase. On paper that decision certainly makes sense, and you have to give them credit for at least trying something completely new here.

It's remains up to debate whether the combat falls on it's face purely because of poor execution, or because InXIle made a crucial mistake of confusing what the players want and what the players think they want.

 

[Prime Junta]

The main issue I had with the combat was how slow and restrictive it felt.

I tend to be a bigger fan of having action points rather than the whole one move/one action system. I guess it's hard to fit APs into the whole Numenera stat pool system?

It wouldn't have been any harder than the changes they did make. It would also have made it a little harder to decide where to put your pool points; as it is, Intellect is a no-brainer, but if they had tied APs to Speed, it would've been a contender.

 

[Tacgnol]

The main issue I had with the combat was how slow and restrictive it felt.

I tend to be a bigger fan of having action points rather than the whole one move/one action system. I guess it's hard to fit APs into the whole Numenera stat pool system?

It wouldn't have been any harder than the changes they did make. It would also have made it a little harder to decide where to put your pool points; as it is, Intellect is a no-brainer, but if they had tied APs to Speed, it would've been a contender.

Yeah, that's a good point with speed. It's such a useless stat as it is.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Because it's more Tormenty to make it a low combat game with lots of dialogue?

Torment had a lot of combat. Granted, it wasn't the game's strongest point but it was there for those who needed it. Making an RPG with very limited combat is a very risky move. I understand why No Truce with the Furies' guys skip combat (they have limited resources and they don't want to work on the game for 10 years), but inXile had WL2 system.

 

[Prime Junta]

Because it's more Tormenty to make it a low combat game with lots of dialogue?

Torment had a lot of combat. Granted, it wasn't the game's strongest point but it was there for those who needed it. Making an RPG with very limited combat is a very risky move. I understand why No Truce with the Furies' guys skip combat (they have limited resources and they don't want to work on the game for 10 years), but inXile had WL2 system.

Or they could've just cribbed the Pillars system and cosmetically re-skinned it. They had the engine.

 

[Infinitron]

Because it's more Tormenty to make it a low combat game with lots of dialogue?

Torment had a lot of combat. Granted, it wasn't the game's strongest point but it was there for those who needed it. Making an RPG with very limited combat is a very risky move. I understand why No Truce with the Furies' guys skip combat (they have limited resources and they don't want to work on the game for 10 years), but inXile had WL2 system.

Or they could've just cribbed the Pillars system and cosmetically re-skinned it. They had the engine.

They had an early version of the engine, but we know from Jedi Master Radek's interview with Feargus that there was very little communication between the studios about that after they got it. Clearly it branched off way more than PS:T's IE did.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Probably for the best anyway, they certainly did a better job with Obisidan tech than Obsidian itself. The loading screens alone, man. It's faster to load entire city in T:TON than in Pillars to load a broom closet.

The real mystery is why the graphics seems so castrated compared to trailers.

 

[existential_vacuum]

They did also run a post-Kickstarter funding drive to expand the Bloom though.

Really needs to be a smilie.

Jesus, what's with the quality of this pic? Here:

 

[an Administrator]

The loading screens alone, man. It's faster to load entire city in T:TON than in Pillars to load a broom closet.

Aren't areas in TToN much smaller than PoE's?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Because it's more Tormenty to make it a low combat game with lots of dialogue?

Torment had a lot of combat. Granted, it wasn't the game's strongest point but it was there for those who needed it. Making an RPG with very limited combat is a very risky move. I understand why No Truce with the Furies' guys skip combat (they have limited resources and they don't want to work on the game for 10 years), but inXile had WL2 system.

Or they could've just cribbed the Pillars system and cosmetically re-skinned it. They had the engine.

Pillars made me replay Icewind Dale 2 and enjoy the experience like never before. Much better writing too.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

The problem is that with all the skill checks and dialogue skills, you'd think it was possible to totally avoid combat in Torment: Tides of Numenera.

It isn't. Most of the time you can avoid it, but there are a few quests (only sidequests so far) where you have to do at least a bit to complete the quest. There's one in the Reef zone and another in the Valley of Dead Heroes where you have to get through at least 3 combat encounters.

 

[an Administrator]

Valley of Dead Heroes where you have to get through at least 3 combat encounters.

You know you can avoid combat at Endless Gate, right?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

The loading screens alone, man. It's faster to load entire city in T:TON than in Pillars to load a broom closet.

Aren't areas in TToN much smaller than PoE's?

Are they really? It's certainly a much smaller game, but much smaller maps? Circus Minor or Underbelly seem as big as anything in Pillars. CM probably has 3x more NPCs than any location in Pillars, but still loads almost instantly.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Seems overly harsh, but I've had a busy work week, and only had time to play the first few hours. Which I quite enjoyed - it's obviously not enough time to judge a game, but usually if a game is going to be fall-apart-terrible like the review makes out, you feel it pretty early on. Lionheart/Barcelona or Chapter 1/Risen are the exception to the norm.

Comments are in the spoiler chunk, but I want to ask a question, so I'll hide my wall of text.

Spoiler

I wasn't expecting a PS:T gem though, so that might help. Always thought it was a mistake to try and market something as PS:T style of sequel as a pre-planned project. Writing and NPC design are at the wrong end of the design process for that to work - to knowingly create a PS:T-worthy game, you'd have to reverse the development order and work like a film studio, starting off by taking submissions from hundreds of script writers. Even that isn't going to be reliable if you aren't also commissioning a bunch of top-notch established writers to each write the equivalent of a pre-greenlight screenplay, a full draft of the world, main NPCs, story, themes, etc. And then if you chance upon one that's PS:T-quality, you might go 'ok, we've got a great PS:T script, let's make that our next project'.

It's why franchise films are so hard to make well - the studio is committed to the film before they even know that they've got a good script + a director with a good take on that script. They've just got to go balls-out and hope that something good drops in their lap, and if it doesn't, that fandom and having a workable house style/formula can at least prevent it from sucking so hard it kills the franchise.

Even then, film studios have the script in hand before the rest of the work (other than marketing) starts. And that's the exception, i.e. their shittiest situation. Otherwise they can be guided by what good scripts they do get, so long as each market is catered to. So you didn't get a good script for that ice-planet giant panda gunslinging film you've been hoping for? Nevermind, you'll go with the decent script that you got for a space samurai showdown, same age + demographics covered so it's no biggie.

I'm not saying that games should work like film studios. I'm just pointing out how damn unreliable it is to 'plan' for a PS:T - you can plan for good mechanics, a good engine, etc, but a good story? You'd have to wholly invert the industry for that, and so far, there's very few companies that go 'story first' that make anything remotely approaching a 'good game', or even a 'game'. Icepick Lodge is the only one that comes to mind. Got no idea whether they do place the writing at the front end of their design process, but all their games have story-telling via mechanics to an extent that would be difficult if you didn't know the major themes/plot first.

And could you even do that kind of 'call for screenplays' in game development? Seems like almost all the good writers are locked into contracts with sole employers, and they like it that way because, with a few exceptions who have already put out their best ideas and are brought on board mostly for experience (MCA), freelancing is completely unviable if you want to eat regularly.

Seems the best you can consistently aim for is to make Deus Ex / UU/SS style 'interactive sims', where the mechanics are conducive to good writing, but don't necessarily rely on it - i.e. if the writing sucks, you can still have fun throwing vending machines into enemies and dicking around with the AI, and then have some decent FPS-rpg gameplay thrown in. Then if you've got good writers, maybe once every 10 games or so, you'll stumble upon a PS:T style gem.

Has there been talk suggesting that there's going to be substantial alterations such that I should wait 6 months before going further with this playthrough? I've still got my White March playthrough to finish, which I'm really enjoying (about half-way through the game), and the improvements since launch have been so massive that the original game feels barely comparable - entire different combat mechanics, fundamental alterations like it's different game altogether. I've also got the last 1/3 of Deus ExD to finish off. Factoring in work and kids, I could easily make those + Undertale + a 2nd Shadowrun: Dragonfall playthrough last me for 18 months, i.e. easily long enough for a PoE 3.0 style revamp.

With PoE the improvement was so great that it really wasn't a case of 'play version 1, then come back and replay 3.0/3.2', it was more a case of 'wait for them to retool this game that is very much in early beta, and then come back when they've got the finished product', or 'subtract 2 from the game's version number and you've got the right indicator'.

Any signs that something as massive as the PoE revamp will happen? Or worth playing through now and then replaying with later alterations?

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Valley of Dead Heroes where you have to get through at least 3 combat encounters.

You know you can avoid combat at Endless Gate, right?

No?

I've been doing both of the sidequests at the same time

Spoiler

but when I go into Endless Gate I still get attacked by the cultists.

 

[Infinitron]

Azrael the cat OT, but what would it take to get you to write a KOTOR2 retrospective review?

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Valley of Dead Heroes where you have to get through at least 3 combat encounters.

You know you can avoid combat at Endless Gate, right?

No?

I've been doing both of the sidequests at the same time

Spoiler

but when I go into Endless Gate I still get attacked by the cultists.

an Administrator - I am dumb. I just found what I needed to do to TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT in Endless Gate.

 

[Bleed the Man]

The loading screens alone, man. It's faster to load entire city in T:TON than in Pillars to load a broom closet.

Aren't areas in TToN much smaller than PoE's?

Are they really? It's certainly a much smaller game, but much smaller maps? Circus Minor or Underbelly seem as big as anything in Pillars. CM probably has 3x more NPCs than any location in Pillars, but still loads almost instantly.

???

Pillars has way bigger maps, no question.

This is Copperlane:

Spoiler

This is Circus Minor:

Spoiler

This is Ondra's Gift:

Spoiler

This is the Underbelly:

Spoiler

Tyranny would be comparable in terms of map size, but Pillars? Absolutely not.

 

[GelGel]

Millennials can't handle bitter truth that Codex delivers.

Great review, makes it really hard to support inXile in future.

 

[commie]

Seems overly harsh, but I've had a busy work week, and only had time to play the first few hours. Which I quite enjoyed - it's obviously not enough time to judge a game, but usually if a game is going to be fall-apart-terrible like the review makes out, you feel it pretty early on. Lionheart/Barcelona or Chapter 1/Risen are the exception to the norm.

Comments are in the spoiler chunk, but I want to ask a question, so I'll hide my wall of text.

Spoiler

I wasn't expecting a PS:T gem though, so that might help. Always thought it was a mistake to try and market something as PS:T style of sequel as a pre-planned project. Writing and NPC design are at the wrong end of the design process for that to work - to knowingly create a PS:T-worthy game, you'd have to reverse the development order and work like a film studio, starting off by taking submissions from hundreds of script writers. Even that isn't going to be reliable if you aren't also commissioning a bunch of top-notch established writers to each write the equivalent of a pre-greenlight screenplay, a full draft of the world, main NPCs, story, themes, etc. And then if you chance upon one that's PS:T-quality, you might go 'ok, we've got a great PS:T script, let's make that our next project'.

It's why franchise films are so hard to make well - the studio is committed to the film before they even know that they've got a good script + a director with a good take on that script. They've just got to go balls-out and hope that something good drops in their lap, and if it doesn't, that fandom and having a workable house style/formula can at least prevent it from sucking so hard it kills the franchise.

Even then, film studios have the script in hand before the rest of the work (other than marketing) starts. And that's the exception, i.e. their shittiest situation. Otherwise they can be guided by what good scripts they do get, so long as each market is catered to. So you didn't get a good script for that ice-planet giant panda gunslinging film you've been hoping for? Nevermind, you'll go with the decent script that you got for a space samurai showdown, same age + demographics covered so it's no biggie.

I'm not saying that games should work like film studios. I'm just pointing out how damn unreliable it is to 'plan' for a PS:T - you can plan for good mechanics, a good engine, etc, but a good story? You'd have to wholly invert the industry for that, and so far, there's very few companies that go 'story first' that make anything remotely approaching a 'good game', or even a 'game'. Icepick Lodge is the only one that comes to mind. Got no idea whether they do place the writing at the front end of their design process, but all their games have story-telling via mechanics to an extent that would be difficult if you didn't know the major themes/plot first.

And could you even do that kind of 'call for screenplays' in game development? Seems like almost all the good writers are locked into contracts with sole employers, and they like it that way because, with a few exceptions who have already put out their best ideas and are brought on board mostly for experience (MCA), freelancing is completely unviable if you want to eat regularly.

Seems the best you can consistently aim for is to make Deus Ex / UU/SS style 'interactive sims', where the mechanics are conducive to good writing, but don't necessarily rely on it - i.e. if the writing sucks, you can still have fun throwing vending machines into enemies and dicking around with the AI, and then have some decent FPS-rpg gameplay thrown in. Then if you've got good writers, maybe once every 10 games or so, you'll stumble upon a PS:T style gem.

Has there been talk suggesting that there's going to be substantial alterations such that I should wait 6 months before going further with this playthrough? I've still got my White March playthrough to finish, which I'm really enjoying (about half-way through the game), and the improvements since launch have been so massive that the original game feels barely comparable - entire different combat mechanics, fundamental alterations like it's different game altogether. I've also got the last 1/3 of Deus ExD to finish off. Factoring in work and kids, I could easily make those + Undertale + a 2nd Shadowrun: Dragonfall playthrough last me for 18 months, i.e. easily long enough for a PoE 3.0 style revamp.

With PoE the improvement was so great that it really wasn't a case of 'play version 1, then come back and replay 3.0/3.2', it was more a case of 'wait for them to retool this game that is very much in early beta, and then come back when they've got the finished product', or 'subtract 2 from the game's version number and you've got the right indicator'.

Any signs that something as massive as the PoE revamp will happen? Or worth playing through now and then replaying with later alterations?

Probably gonna get butthurt fucked again, but I think you have the right attitude for the game. I was about half way when I heard about the additions to come. Think they will end up in an EE. I decided to play it through as one style of play and just deal with it how it is. Then I'll give it a go again when it's 'improved' upon. Since I went non combat, then I should be able to take advantage of any combat improvements in subsequent goes. But if you're really early in , then you can put it off I guess.

 

[Apexeon]

I think it's just simple project mismanagement.

Never underestimate the ability of bad project management to fuck things up.

Maybe they are just that unproductive, those glassdoor reviews come to mind

You mean these reviews?

"Good work environment, poorly organized"
Former Employee - Anonymous Employee in Newport Beach, CA

Recommends
Neutral Outlook
No opinion of CEO

I worked at InXile Entertainment full-time (More than a year)

Pros

Very positive atmosphere, great location, producers are encouraged to get feedback on design choices from everyone. Willing to promote from within, which is rare for the industry. This is not a good place if you're looking long-term, but as a 1-2 year position, it's worth it.

Cons

Disorganized in how they execute their projects. Very large communication gap between upper management and the engineers/artists, which sometimes translated into offhanded comments turning into week-long or even month-long blind alleys distracting important team members from the primary project. There was also a philosophical clash between the Leads' expectations of team members and HRs' expectations of team members … Show More

Advice to Management

The main thing that I hope has been learned is that having focused, clear project goals is vital to keeping everyone on the same page during development. Especially once you get toward feature-lock and engineers are pushing hard for their pet feature to get included, having a solid design bible at hand can save the project from grinding to a halt.

"Good luck to inXile - don't touch with ten foot pole"


Former Employee - Senior Artist in Newport Beach, CA
Doesn't Recommend
Disapproves of CEO


Pros

-While I was there, there were many talented people that I was proud to work with.
-Good location, right next to the beach.
-Pay was pretty good for the industry.

Cons

-Company had a hiring frenzy, by placing more cooks in the kitchen and crossed their fingers.
-You have to pick up slack of other people.
-Very visual game company, gameplay second or third.
-No backend, and management doesn't understand technology and limitations.
-Laid off everyone that was competent, and left behind the muses.
-No one left to make games, only management.

Advice to Management

Be more involved with design decisions. Don't come in at the end of development and wonder what's going on! Don't leave your trusted few to do the work, be involved for success! It such a small company, talk to your own workers! Corporation mentality doesn't work anymore, you don't have hundreds or thousands of employee like the Interplay days.


"Blind leading a sight seeing dog"
Former Employee - Anonymous Employee in Newport Beach, CA

Doesn't Recommend
Disapproves of CEO


Pros

Pay is generally higher than surrounding studios

Cons

"Upside down cake" studio.
Higher ups have no clue why things are failing. They refuse to talk to their own workers to acknowledge and fix their problems.

Advice to Management

Please google the following:
Peter's Principle and Dunning Kruger Effect. They both apply so perfectly to the studio.


"meh"
Former Employee - Anonymous Employee

Doesn't Recommend
Disapproves of CEO

Pros

all about the location, there

Cons

no vision, no funding, no shoes, no shirt, no service

Advice to Management
meh

Confirmed.

Artists and coders carry the load for weak/bad design and bad management.

 

[YES!]

This review is pompous and juvenile. Even the review introduction is complete shit. You say this hasn't sold as well as other big kickstarters but PST didn't sell as well as other crpgs. The three games you list as people playing are all fucking mega-ultra-console games. Why list console games in a crpg review? The audience is about as similar as smart people and codex members. TToN may have also released on console, but it is clearly first and foremost a crpg.

The review - I just skimmed it because I have a low tolerance for shit - that is why I play crpgs and not console games, unlike the reviewer. The reviewer does not seem to be a crpg fan. He seems to be a pompous ultra-leftist hipster. I bet he is a huge supporter of Palestine and calls jews Zionists.

I can gather all this just by skimming the review. Anyone who actually likes crpgs that gives any credence to this review is either too young to be able to form their own opinion or too stupid to realize they most likely do not like crpgs.


Lastly, anyone so cultist in their ultra-leftist ideology that cannot separate the product from the story behind the product should not be reviewing shit. When there is so much hate and bias on the process leading up to the released game how could anyone objectively review the released game? Like Fake News this is a Fake review. Sadly, it goes extremely well with the Fake RPG game fans on this site.

 

[YES!]

Wouldn't it be nice if an rpg site had people on staff that actually liked rpgs? It seems like the function of this site is to be edgy and full of drama instead of being an rpg site.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Codex creating butthurt like the good ole days...

Wouldn't it be nice if an rpg site had people on staff that actually liked rpgs? It seems like the function of this sight is too be edgy and full of drama instead of being an rpg site.

Prime Junta isn't really on staff, has actually said he's "not a codexer" and isn't very popular because he's too positive.