RPG gameplay elements/habits you don't understand

[Lilliput McHammersmith]

I hate broken economy in RPGs. It can often completely destroy the setting if you allow yourself to think about it for ten seconds. Classic situation: there's a dungeon near town filled with some low level critters. An average person can, at moderate risk to his life (if he's not careful) lose his life exploring it. If he explores it and sells all the shit he found... he just made a year's worth of average salary in a couple hours. Why is everyone with a smidge of courage not swarming each such dungeon to make big money quick? Why would some city thug bother robbing idiots in the ghetto if he can just beat up a couple goblins and make a hundred times as much money, without risk of legal trouble? Why is every city guard and soldier not going dungeon crawling in his free time?

I want more cRPG with "competing" adventuring parties, some i can rescue, some that will rescue me, some i will compete with, some ambushing me ...
Adventuring parties everywhere!
I'm not kidding, it would be extremely fun to have dynamic adventuring parties leveling up, also, elite parties looking down on your pathetic band of hobos.

Of course, i order not to ruin the fun for the player, either you'd have to add a certain amount of randomly generated dungeons for these parties to loot or to hide most important dungeons; having to discover them through various clues before raiding them, which some of them could fin in time too, (why not?); or both.

Also if nobody addresses a problem, it should become worse.
You don't do anything about these orcs raiding caravans ? Well, at some point, the orcs will grow bolder or get unified and prepare to raid a nearby city, even take it over.

I think Baldur's Gate and Pillars did this aspect pretty well. While they were not "adventuring" parties per se, you still had battles against elite parties and it was awesome. One of the most memorable encounters from Pillars for me was the bounty contract in the White March out in the frozen fields right before the Alpine Dragon cave. There was a party that consisted of 6 Monks and 2 Priests, IIRC. That was a tough fight, but it was a lot of fun. To me, it felt like they were a party that was out there searching the frozen plains just like my party.

Just did some googling, it was The Gleaming Society.

Here is the description:

A group of radicals calling themselves the Gleaming Society have been targeting and assassinating political figures in both the Dyrwood and Readceras. A bounty has been put on the head of their leader, Ulmar.

 

[Carrion]

I really hate long introductory areas and dungeons.

I hate linear, action-packed tutorial segments, RPGs or not. I've actually been meaning to make a thread about this, but I've been too lazy about it.

Especailly nowadays the rule is that you have to get the player straight into the action, make the game easy to get into and generally make sure the player never has to RTFM. It just happens to suck when your epic action scene is constantly interrupted by important messages like "click on an enemy to attack it" or "press C to crouch". The handholding kills the fun and excitement straight away, making your bombastic introduction lose its impact. I vastly prefer a separate (preferably optional) tutorial level that doesn't even pretend to be anything else. The game makes sure that you know the essentials, and then the umbilical cord is cut and you're on your own.

Compared to a lot of other games, I actually don't mind the Temple of Trials that much, at least not any more than the rest of the tribal thing in FO2. It's a lame tutorial, yes, but it's set up more as a learn-by-doing thing and a way to test your initial character than a scripted amusement park ride. The real game only starts after you're done with it.

 

[Lilura]

Compared to a lot of other games, I actually don't mind the Temple of Trials that much, at least not any more than the rest of the tribal thing in FO2. It's a lame tutorial, yes, but it's set up more as a learn-by-doing thing and a way to test your initial character than a scripted amusement park ride. The real game only starts after you're done with it.

The initial Fallout segment is far superior for learning-by-doing. ToT basically forces you to employ fists, spears or stealth-cheese. Veterans won't have any problems, but for newbies rolling with non-melee builds, its hell.

ToT's design cannot be defended. It's terrible.

 

[JarlFrank]

That's the case with many forced tutorial sections. They make you go through all the different motions just so you know which buttons you have to press, which is just ???????

Anyone who ever played a game before, any game, will know how pressing buttons works.

Those who don't can go through an optional tutorial. Don't force it on everyone.

 

[Lilura]

Also, ToT isn't even a tutorial. It's a prologue. A pretty tough one if you're new and trying to get to grips with Fallout's systems. If you don't Tag melee-based skills/crank melee-based attributes/take solid traits, it's potentially off-putting. In Fallout, you've got the rats. And you can go melee or 9mm. But you can also go into the Vault and get used to other aspects of the game, such as dialogue, exploration and non-combat skill usage. The Overseer will even give you a few things to help you along.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

That's the case with many forced tutorial sections. They make you go through all the different motions just so you know which buttons you have to press, which is just ???????

Anyone who ever played a game before, any game, will know how pressing buttons works.

Those who don't can go through an optional tutorial. Don't force it on everyone.

Opening sequences in western RPGs are cancer in general. Often in RPGs I just want to create a character, do something, then create another character. There should always be an option to skip the prologue and get to straight to open world when starting a new game.

Don't forget gaining a level while doing so. Which leads me to another DnD retardation, the "everyone is a level 1 commoner, just the PCs are speshul" approach. I see no reason why you couldn't have NPCs gain a few levels after a decade of plying their trade. At least you would have a world that can take care of itself somewhat and isn't at the mercy of anything above CR3.

Working your trade doesn't make you more powerful. You don't get to be a Jedi after 40 years of being a paper-pusher. Veteran combatants who train really hard can gain levels. I've been reading Forgotten Realms for ADnD and it's specifically mentioned that everyone at the Flaming Fist is at least a 5 level fighter. I don't think that the entire Flaming Fist is composed of PCs.
On the other hand the book also states that the above fact makes the Flaming Fist the most elite and expensive mercenary company around.

Childhood trauma from being unable to multiclass their male characters into valkyries in Wizardry must be the root of tranny infestation among RPG players.

I've developed a trauma when I found the Ring of Endurance 20 hours into the game and realized that my gadgeteer cannot equip it.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Working your trade doesn't make you more powerful. You don't get to be a Jedi after 40 years of being a paper-pusher. Veteran combatants who train really hard can gain levels. I've been reading Forgotten Realms for ADnD and it's specifically mentioned that everyone at the Flaming Fist is at least a 5 level fighter. I don't think that the entire Flaming Fist is composed of PCs.
On the other hand the book also states that the above fact makes the Flaming Fist the most elite and expensive mercenary company around.

I have news for you, killing people or doing fetch quests doesn't make you a jedi either ... Except it does in cRPG.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I have news for you, killing people or doing fetch quests doesn't make you a jedi either ... Except it does in cRPG.

You won't get stronger just by killing people. Commoners are worth like 5xp a head.
But I agree with fetch quests. If you do something that is neither challenging, nor dangerous you shouldn't get any experience. Buying a milk at the store is not a quest it's a chore.
For example it in Baldur's Gate 1 it's absurd that you get 50 xp each for getting a medicine for cow, bringing a guardsman his sword, finding a lost book, but only 20 xp for killing each of the assassins in Candlekeep. Assassination attempt would be a life-changing experience for every person living a normal life. Especially if the encounter in them killing the attacked in self-defence. How can they provide less experience than something everyone does all the time.

 

[JarlFrank]

Opening sequences in western RPGs are cancer in general. Often in RPGs I just want to create a character, do something, then create another character. There should always be an option to skip the prologue and get to straight to open world when starting a new game.

The best Fallout beginning is New Vegas'. Doctor patches you up, you get the option to do quests around town or head out straight away.
Fallout 1 is second best with the rats in the cave. Get past them and you're good to go.
Fallout 2 has Temple of Trials.
Fallout 3 has the lengthy sequence of living in the Vault (which is shit).
Fallout 4 has the pre-war sequence (which is equally shit).

New Vegas has absolutely zero bullshit. You're dropped straight into the world.

Arcanum is also pretty good. You start out at the blimp crash, then you can explore the crash site or just GTFO right away.

Morrowind sets you loose straight after character creation.

Jagged Alliance 2 gives you free reign from the start, too.

ToEE lets you ignore the dumb fetch quests of Hommlett and head straight into the dungeon crawling.

Plenty of western RPGs that drop you straight in with no mandatory tutorial section. Sadly the Biowarean school of EPIC PROLOGUE is more popular among designers.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Opening sequences in western RPGs are cancer in general. Often in RPGs I just want to create a character, do something, then create another character. There should always be an option to skip the prologue and get to straight to open world when starting a new game.

The best Fallout beginning is New Vegas'. Doctor patches you up, you get the option to do quests around town or head out straight away.
Fallout 1 is second best with the rats in the cave. Get past them and you're good to go.
Fallout 2 has Temple of Trials.
Fallout 3 has the lengthy sequence of living in the Vault (which is shit).
Fallout 4 has the pre-war sequence (which is equally shit).

New Vegas has absolutely zero bullshit. You're dropped straight into the world.

Arcanum is also pretty good. You start out at the blimp crash, then you can explore the crash site or just GTFO right away.

Morrowind sets you loose straight after character creation.

Jagged Alliance 2 gives you free reign from the start, too.

ToEE lets you ignore the dumb fetch quests of Hommlett and head straight into the dungeon crawling.

Plenty of western RPGs that drop you straight in with no mandatory tutorial section. Sadly the Biowarean school of EPIC PROLOGUE is more popular among designers.

The problem with Morrowind and New Vegas is that instead of long beginning they have needlessly long character creation. They would be perfect if you could tag "quick character creation" option and just get spawned in front of the doctor's house or the record office.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Plenty of western RPGs that drop you straight in with no mandatory tutorial section. Sadly the Biowarean school of EPIC PROLOGUE is more popular among designers.

I like humble origins. Starting games with epic shit is an aberration of Hitchcock ideas, games take at least 20 hours to complete, you don't need to pace them like if they were 2 hours long movie.

 

[DraQ]

You won't get stronger just by killing people. Commoners are worth like 5xp a head.

Seems like Hitler had a hell of a powergaming plan. Fucking munchkin.

But I agree with fetch quests. If you do something that is neither challenging, nor dangerous you shouldn't get any experience. Buying a milk at the store is not a quest it's a chore.
For example it in Baldur's Gate 1 it's absurd that you get 50 xp each for getting a medicine for cow, bringing a guardsman his sword, finding a lost book, but only 20 xp for killing each of the assassins in Candlekeep. Assassination attempt would be a life-changing experience for every person living a normal life. Especially if the encounter in them killing the attacked in self-defence. How can they provide less experience than something everyone does all the time.

Funny thing that I agree with that despite disagreeing with combat XP concept in cRPGs in general.
There is no contradiction there, though you'd probably need to revisit the old combat XP thread (the PoE one) to see why.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

You won't get stronger just by killing people. Commoners are worth like 5xp a head.

Seems like Hitler had a hell of a powergaming plan. Fucking munchkin.

If he actually gassed all those people by himself he could solo Stalingrad.
But seriously commoners should give 0xp in most RPGs. Xp should be awarded for defeating opponents, not killing people.

 

[Darth Canoli]

The best Fallout beginning is New Vegas'. Doctor patches you up, you get the option to do quests around town or head out straight away.
Fallout 1 is second best with the rats in the cave. Get past them and you're good to go.
Fallout 2 has Temple of Trials.
Fallout 3 has the lengthy sequence of living in the Vault (which is shit).
Fallout 4 has the pre-war sequence (which is equally shit).

New Vegas has absolutely zero bullshit. You're dropped straight into the world.

New Vegas is the most retarded of the bunch; i didn't touch FO4 though; after the questions thing they pulled off to replace the excellent character creation screen i lost interest in the game, i walked around for 5 minutes and forgot about this shit.

Fallout 3, 4, NV, it's all the same garbage.

Fallout 2 Temple of trials was a good idea, maybe inspired by CYOA books, it just didn't translate very well in an isometric cRPG but isn't there an option to skip it for non combat builds using the speech skill ?

The best start for cRPG i've played were Dark Sun Shattered Lands and Wizardry 8, by far.
Starting as a gladiator in the former was just brilliant and the Wizardry 8 Monastery is one of the most atmospheric dungeon ever created.

 

[JarlFrank]

You won't get stronger just by killing people. Commoners are worth like 5xp a head.

Seems like Hitler had a hell of a powergaming plan. Fucking munchkin.

If he actually gassed all those people by himself he could solo Stalingrad.

XP is usually shared among the party. And since everyone was a member of the nazi party...

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

The best Fallout beginning is New Vegas'. Doctor patches you up, you get the option to do quests around town or head out straight away.
Fallout 1 is second best with the rats in the cave. Get past them and you're good to go.
Fallout 2 has Temple of Trials.
Fallout 3 has the lengthy sequence of living in the Vault (which is shit).
Fallout 4 has the pre-war sequence (which is equally shit).

New Vegas has absolutely zero bullshit. You're dropped straight into the world.

New Vegas is the most retarded of the bunch; i didn't touch FO4 though; after the questions thing they pulled off to replace the excellent character creation screen i lost interest in the game, i walked around for 5 minutes and forgot about this shit.

Fallout 3, 4, NV, it's all the same garbage.

Fallout 2 Temple of trials was a good idea, maybe inspired by CYOA books, it just didn't translate very well in an isometric cRPG but isn't there an option to skip it for non combat builds using the speech skill ?

The best start for cRPG i've played were Dark Sun Shattered Lands and Wizardry 8, by far.
Starting as a gladiator in the former was just brilliant and the Wizardry 8 Monastery is one of the most atmospheric dungeon ever created.

The best start I've ever seen in an RPG is Ultima 4. Talk to Gipsy, get dropped into the world, have fun. They don't even put you in a town like in Wizardry. You start the wild but somewhere near the town. Getting a different starting location for different classes add to the reaplayability.

 

[DraQ]

You won't get stronger just by killing people. Commoners are worth like 5xp a head.

Seems like Hitler had a hell of a powergaming plan. Fucking munchkin.

If he actually gassed all those people by himself he could solo Stalingrad.
But seriously commoners should give 0xp in most RPGs. Xp should be awarded for defeating opponents, not killing people.

Actually, XP should be given for dealing with all sorts of obstacles. You kill the enemy, you get XP, you get enemy to flee, you get XP, you subdue the enemy, you get XP, you evade the enemy... you bribe the enemy... and so on.

As long as you are using XP at all it should be measure of achieving actual goals.

 

[Darth Canoli]

you get enemy to flee, you get XP

You take a piss, you get XP ...

 

[rusty_shackleford]

You won't get stronger just by killing people. Commoners are worth like 5xp a head.

Seems like Hitler had a hell of a powergaming plan. Fucking munchkin.

If he actually gassed all those people by himself he could solo Stalingrad.
But seriously commoners should give 0xp in most RPGs. Xp should be awarded for defeating opponents, not killing people.

Actually, XP should be given for dealing with all sorts of obstacles. You kill the enemy, you get XP, you get enemy to flee, you get XP, you subdue the enemy, you get XP, you evade the enemy... you bribe the enemy... and so on.

As long as you are using XP at all it should be measure of achieving actual goals.

The only experience worth learning is how to kill your enemy

 

[Lilura]

Morrowind sets you loose straight after character creation.

That conveniently leaves out the fact that chargen itself consists of unskippable dialogues.

 

[Poseidon00]

Why every world, post apocalyptic to fantasy, has ready access to instant healing even in the most unlikely of places. Just once I'd like to feel like I'm having to manage scare resources rather than juggle and ever-growing item list.

 

[Lilura]

As long as you are using XP at all it should be measure of achieving actual goals.

But when it comes to Morrowind, repeatedly breaking your legs for +acrobatics is fine, amirite?

 

[Poseidon00]

But when it comes to Morrowind, repeatedly breaking your legs for +acrobatics is fine, amirite?

It's great practice.

 

[alyvain]

you get enemy to flee, you get XP

You take a piss, you get XP ...

sounds like disco elysium to me.

 

[DraQ]

Morrowind sets you loose straight after character creation.

That conveniently leaves out the fact that chargen itself consists of unskippable dialogues.

Still better than unskippable Candlekeep.

you get enemy to flee, you get XP

You take a piss, you get XP ...

Well, I guess we should measure goals by the person.