RPG Questions

[Kogorn]

This is my first subject post on the forum. I'm an avid RPG player, but in the computer rpg genre I started kind of late. Luckily, that time was when BG1 first came out. I loved the series (expecially BG2, which I have completed with every class) and have not really been able to find a game that's quite as good. It seems to me that, for whatever reason, the RPG market is dying, and as a person who has little experience trolling for information I was wondering if you guys could answer a few questions for me.

1) I've played all BGs, the IWD games and PS: T. I thought Morrowind was pretty good, but HATED Oblivion, and found the NWN games very lacking compared to the Baldur's Gate series. I managed to find a little gem recently (Arcanum), and downloaded the unofficial patch because I heard that it had a lot of bugs, and that's how I found you guys. Anyways, my question is, are there any other cRPGs out there that an RPG player would love, but are often overlooked (like Arcanum) that you could recommend?

2) Why does the RPG market appear to be getting "dumbed down"? Pretty much every CRPG I've played since NWN has seemed really easy. I got through the NWN2 OC without ever having to reload from death. Oblivion was a joke compared to Morrowind. Does the gaming industry have some profit reason for dumbing down gameplay, favoring graphics (which don't honestly matter that much) over artistic elements (story, characters, etc) and producing constantly buggy games at release?

3) What do you have against Elderscrolls players? Oblivion was terrible, but I didn't mind Morrowind.

4) Why are the RPG companies that have survived moving on to MMORPGs? Yes, the profit is potentially huge but its a highly competetive, very risky market. I'm a former WoW player, and I don't believe that any other MMORPG that comes out can beat WoW at this time.

Heh, I know this is a load of really random questions that you might have discussed (since you all seem like hardcore players), but I never manage to get forum search engines to work in my favor...

 

[Darth Roxor]

1) I've played all BGs, the IWD games and PS: T. I thought Morrowind was pretty good, but HATED Oblivion, and found the NWN games very lacking compared to the Baldur's Gate series. I managed to find a little gem recently (Arcanum), and downloaded the unofficial patch because I heard that it had a lot of bugs, and that's how I found you guys. Anyways, my question is, are there any other cRPGs out there that an RPG player would love, but are often overlooked (like Arcanum) that you could recommend?

The Witcher is a must-play when it comes to new RPGs. If you liked PS:T and found "something lacking" in NWN, you should check Knights of the Old Republic 2, and probably NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, all the people around here seem to be praising it to heaven, never got to play it though.

3) What do you have against Elderscrolls players? Oblivion was terrible, but I didn't mind Morrowind.

There are actually a lot of people here who liked Morrowind. Also, there is nothing wrong with TES players, what is wrong though, are people who yell 'OMIGOSH, OBLIVION IS DA BEST RPG EVAR, UND BETHESDA IS THE BEST DEVELOPER EVAR, AMIRITE???'

4) Why are the RPG companies that have survived moving on to MMORPGs?

They are? Apart from the newly announced KotOR-MMO, I can't think of anything else.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Anyways, my question is, are there any other cRPGs out there that an RPG player would love, but are often overlooked (like Arcanum) that you could recommend?

Fallout you lucky devil, you. That should be fun getting to experience that newly. After that, you've pretty much played "the essentials". Here's a list of some other good stuff.

Prelude to Darkness (free and pretty nice, but tons of game-breaking bugs....still worth a try)
Ultima 7 (wonderfully detailed world with lots of interactivity)
Daggerfall (detailed character creation)
Jagged Alliance 2 (not an RPG per se.....but more RPG than a lot of games marketed as such)
Gothic (think Elder Scrolls, but a little different)

Here's some stuff other people swear by, but I'm not a huge fan of.

Geneforge
Darklands
Realms of Arkania
Mask of the Betrayer (haven't tried....not too eager given my graphics card sucks and I disliked NWN2 quite a lot)
The Witcher (haven't tried....graphics card would bleed)

2) Why does the RPG market appear to be getting "dumbed down"?

Eh...money I guess. The gaming industry doesn't understand making anything besides high-budget blockbusters, and thus can't have any sort of risk and must go with

3) What do you have against Elderscrolls players?

I've got nothing against them. I liked Daggerfall and didn't mind Morrowind. Every game or series has someone who hates it at the Codex. That's really the only universal factor here.

4) Why are the RPG companies that have survived moving on to MMORPGs?

Publishers and CEOs with little actual gaming experience trying to emulate WoW's success? I'm not really sure if it is a trend....

but I never manage to get forum search engines to work in my favor...

I'm pretty sure search has been borked for quite some time.

 

[Fat Dragon]

Besides the list of good rpgs Murrow listed you should also check out the Dark Sun games. They're a little buggy, but they're still very fun. The first one is one of my favs.

Also check out Hammer and Sickle. There are also the classic oldies like Wasteland and such, though you'll need to know how to use DOS Box to run them.

All three of Troika's games are worth checking out; since you've already got Arcanum get their Bloodlines and Temple of Elemental Evil games as well.

And make sure to keep an eye out for the upcoming Age of Decadence game.

What do you have against Elderscrolls players?

I don't think people here have anything against people that play and enjoy ES games. It's mainly the fanboys and the people that take the games waaaay too damn serious a.k.a. the LARPers that seem to annoy them.

Anyways, welcome to the Codex.

 

[barker_s]

Nobody mentioned Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines so far, so let me reccomend this game for you :wink: . It's one of my favorite rpg's out there, mainly because of great dialogues, story and atmosphere. But make sure you download some unofficial patches to fix the most annoying bugs.

Also, if you don't need super-duper graphics to enjoy a game, then definitely you should try roguelikes like ADOM and Dwarf Fortress (although this one is very time-consuming).

 

[Mareus]

1. RPG Games to recommend:
-Fallout 1,2
-Vampire the Masquarade: Bloodlines
-Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain (while we are at vampires)
-Jagged Alliance 2 (tactical RPG?)
-Gothic 1,2 (I hate it, but people around here love it so you might check it out)
-Kotor 1,2
-The Witcher (wait for the enhanced version, should be coming soon)
-Betrayal at Krondor (if you don't mind the graphic, this one is one of the best RPGs of all time)
-Deus Ex 1
-System Shock 1,2
-Final Fantasy 6,7 (to get a taste of JRPG, most people here hate it, but you might check it out)
-Chrono Trigger
-Wizardry 7,8
-Daggerfall (you will never finish it though. It's 1000 times bigger than Morrowind)

2. We have been asking ourselves the same question, and while there are many theories, we still ask ourselves that question.

3. Darth Roxor already answered this one pretty good.

4. Not really.

 

[Jaesun]

3) What do you have against Elderscrolls players? Oblivion was terrible, but I didn't mind Morrowind.

Poi...sen?

Welcome to the Codex!

 

[Jaime Lannister]

2) If you're looking for a modern, difficult game I would recommend any of the Gothic games. Part of the difficulty comes from the very bizarre control system, but even after mastering that you can still die easily if you explore a higher level area. So think of it as The Elder Scrolls without the level scaling and with quests that actually have consequences and affect the game world.

As for a modern party-based difficult game, I really don't know. MotB is moderately difficult, but easier than even BG2 I'd say. Try going to the NWN Vault and seeing if there are any modules, which tend to be more difficult than official campaigns, that interest you.

 

[Solohk]

Kogorn,

I am actually in a similar position as you. I missed most of the classic cRPGs when they came out and am in the middle of going through them right now. I have to throw my vote in for each of the following:

NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer
Best RPG to come out in a good while in my opinion. The story is dark and very personal, and surprisingly doesn't have to do with saving the world. Some pretty nice choices and consequences (C&C) as well. Combat is really easy like all new games, but it's strengths more than make up for it.

Arcanum
I loved this game. Fantastic setting and atmosphere. Combat is... not very good but bearable. Main plot is pretty good. However, the C&C is amazing. So many different ways to do things, so many opportunities to double-cross people, etc. I will play through this game again for sure. Oh, and did I mention the setting and atmosphere is amazing?

Temple of Elemental Evil
The story is generic, but the combat and party creation is a blast. Hooray for great turn-based combat!

 

[FrancoTAU]

I guess Richard Garriot ditched regular RPGs for MMORPGs, but i can't think of any others. Bioware, Bethseda, Obsidian, CD Projekt, Piranha Bytes aren't making MMOs except for KOTOR 3 MMO. All of the other old school RPG devs are dead.

 

[RK47]

richard garriot is partaking in a space operation to save humanity in space. You can also be part of it too, by having your DNA scanned in Tabula rasa (that's why hes giving free trials) to be uploaded to the immortality drive when he goes to space.

http://www.operationimmortality.com/

 

[Jasede]

He what?

Urgh

Did you know his mansion looks like the castle in Ultima, complete with secret doorways and levers?

 

[Saxon1974]

Arrg, Richard Garriot is a painfull subject for me.

His drive to make the best and most complete single player RPG's when making the Ultima games were a huge influence on me. I just loved how he cared deeply about every little detail including the cloth map.

But the fact that he is doing MMO's now just sucks. I know people move on and do other things, but dang.....

When is somone going to bring the interactivity of say Ultima VI and VII to the modern next gen graphical goodness?

sorry that was a bit of a rant.

 

[racofer]

Definitely get VTM:Bloodlines, even if you have to torrent it nowadays. It's also made by Troika and offers three distinct gameplay routes and many other different options along the way. It's not meant for kiddies and has the most memorable characters of any game I've played. The voice acting and characters acting is impeccable. The fact it uses the source engine does not mean it's just full of eye candy, quite the contrary, it has an unique art direction that made all the graphix!!!! whores say it was shitty since they couldn't comprehend it.

I would not recommend you Mask of the Betrayer because of the NWN2 engine, which is a pile of shit to say the least. Not only it's heavily unoptimized, the camera system is abysmal and will induce puke after minutes of usage.

Also if you disliked the original NWN you will not like KotOR 1, it follows the same style although not as shitty but it's extremely childish and cliched. The second game on the other hand is better, but unfinished, and until the restoration patch is released (somewhere near the Duke Nukem Forever release date) it's not worth it since like the whole ending is cut and left with lunar craters all over it.

The real Fallout games of course are worth it, but something tells me VTM:Bloodlines will fill your taste perfectly.

Oh yes, it's not a RPG but, Dark Messiah offers the best first person melee combat available if you are into such things and feels like just hacking through orcs and zoombies. It also runs on source engine so it should run fine on most computers. I find this game a must to detox from text reading overdoses.

 

[Texas Red]

m
Also if you disliked the original NWN you will not like KotOR 1, it follows the same style although not as shitty but it's extremely childish and cliched. The second game on the other hand is better, but unfinished, and until the restoration patch is released (somewhere near the Duke Nukem Forever release date) it's not worth it since like the whole ending is cut and left with lunar craters all over it.

Why do you spread your lies? I played with the leaked Restoration Pack and the game played perfectly with only some minor bugs.

If you want to play KotOR 2, download the Sith Lords Restoration Pack from some torrent website(use Google).

The Witcher is a very long game with good characters, setting and story but the developers decided to improve all of the dialogs. So wait until September when the (free) Enhanced Edition will be released. Some idiots will claim that the game is immature because you can have copious amounts of sex and receive "sex cards", not being aware that it's only a technique often employed in other games to draw away attention from the overly serious themes for some moments, as it gets tiring.

 

[Shannow]

1) Haven't seen it mentioned: Wizardry 8. You might also try some of the Might & Magic games. I think 6 and 7 are most liked here. I liked 8 but you should avoid 9.

2) "Do not frustrate the casual gamer." AAA games are made to make a profit. Only few people are capable of finishing challenging games. Somehow the suits think that by making games easier and shorter they will sell more to casual players. The bugs come with complex, un-optimized engines and short development spans as well as reducing the costs of quality assurance.

3) Nothing effective...ah, I mean... We consider Oblivion to be vastly overrated crap and gaming "journalism" has decided to declare it the best RPG ever. It doesn't help that every new RPG is measured against Oblivion's "qualities" and that TES players come over here to <s>troll</s> defend it, either.

4) As people mentioned, there are few RPG devs moving into mmos. If you mean a general trend toward mmos just ask yourself why people gamble. Many lose, few win, but everybody expects to win.

 

[Wyrmlord]

over artistic elements (story, characters, etc)

Ugh, artistic elements. Unfortunately, quite on the contrary, there has been far too much attention towards artistic elements. Back in the old days, stories were simple, and were not the forefront of the game. But now, the entire game is centered around the story.

Wasteland, for example, was all about hard tactical combat and exploration, and did these things way better than quite alot of modern games do, which have foregone those things in favour of story and characters. The former, when done well, is way more fun than browsing through a series of popup menus regarding what you have to say. Games these days are marketed like movies, hence their focus on cutscenes and stuff.

 

[inwoker]

kogorn, do you need Fate unlock code?

 

[Lumpy]

1. Didn't know Arcanum was overlooked. Anyway, Mask of the Betrayer is basically PS:T 2 in my opinion, make sure you try it.

2. Dunno.

3. I liked Morrowind back in the day. Oblivion was okay as well.

4. Again, dunno. More moneyz?

Anyway, welcome to the Codex. The nazis are over in General Discussion. Check RPG design for smart topics nobody gives a shit about. There's a topic in Site Feedback and one in General Discussion with recent memes. You get banned if you spam tons of shit. Piracy is not wrong because nothing is removed from an inventory, but you shouldn't post links to pirated stuff anyway.

Enjoy your fake nonchalance.

 

[Binary]

Arrg, Richard Garriot is a painfull subject for me.

His drive to make the best and most complete single player RPG's when making the Ultima games were a huge influence on me. I just loved how he cared deeply about every little detail including the cloth map.

But the fact that he is doing MMO's now just sucks. I know people move on and do other things, but dang.....

When is somone going to bring the interactivity of say Ultima VI and VII to the modern next gen graphical goodness?

sorry that was a bit of a rant.

This can't be quoted enough. Well done.

 

[Relayer71]

Must Play: Wizardry 8, Fallout

Should Play: Fallout 2, Gothic 2, Kotor 2, Temple Of Elemental Evil, NWN 2 MOTB

You may want to play: Divine Divinity, VtM: Bloodlines

Don't Play: NWN's OC.

I loved Morrowind, more for the lore, imaginative art design, atmosphere than anything else. That was one game that left me with good hopes for the future (ES: IV) but unfortunately they blew it big time with Oblivion. Never tried Arena, played Daggerfall only briefly. I don't like Bethesda's direction - seems like they just want to make dumb games for the masses (see footage of Fallout 3 & interviews floating around).

There is a place for MMORPGs. Someday one will (hopefully) come out with tons of dynamic content, choice and consequences, a thrilling backstory with excellent writing, and a real challenging, tactical combat system that doesn't have the old usual boring leveling grind. I thought Tabula Rasa was supposed to be it but not hearing good things about it.

 

[DraQ]

Hello, and welcome. Although I don't share your love for BG (BG1 at least - BG2 seems quite decent), I can give you a few recommendations:
- Fallout 1&2 (awesome series - good dialogue trees, c&c, cool retrofuturism-meets-world-after-nuclear-apocalypse atmosphere and setting, decent TB combat)
- Wizardry 8 (a dungeon crawl and very combat-centric experience, but superbly done and addictive - FPP view, party based, TB combat, some decent c&c, lots of stats)
- The Witcher (modern game, a bit twitchy combat wise, but story- and c&c wise it's a full blown RPG and, to compensate for twitchiness in combat, main character does look quite awesome while slaughtering opposition, also the delayed consequences of player's choices are absolutely fantastic thing)
- Daggerfall (TES II, I haven't played it all that much, but it seems good enough and the chargen is fantastic)
- Deus Ex (an FPS-RPG mix, to be honest, but it offers multiple ways of tackling problems and cool plot, setting and atmosphere, so why not? Of course, that's assuming you're not allergic to FPS games.)

I'd recommend PS:T, but, sadly, you've already played it.

I guess that dumbed down games are the result of dumbed down playerbase. I'm not sure if it has to do with widespread console use, operation systems no longer requiring knowldege of numerous text commands and setting up things like sound card manually, or general decline of humanity, but the dumb games are caused by dumb gamers. Focus on graphics is understandable, especially in context of dumb userbase, as it's the only element that can be easily conveyed by trailers and screenshots thus translating into more sales.

Aso, I am an avid Morrowind fan (and an antifan of Oblivion) myself, so I never quite got the reason behind all the hate and suspect that generalized anti-bethsdaism might have been a factor. It's a flawed gem, it would be quite unremarkable without it's lore, exploration and art direction, but it doesn't make it any less of a gem.

 

[Texas Red]

Must Play: Wizardry 8, Fallout

Should Play: Fallout 2, Gothic 2, Kotor 2, Temple Of Elemental Evil, NWN 2 MOTB

You may want to play: Divine Divinity, VtM: Bloodlines

Don't Play: NWN's OC.

That's a pretty fail list. Wizardry 8 a must and Bloodlines 2 tiers down? Why on Earth is Wizardry 8 on that list anyway? The game requires a very specific taste and gets really old really fast for many, I imagine.

 

[aleph]

If you don't mind old dos games:

- Might and Magic 3,4,5 (way better than the newer sequels, 7 was okay, the rest not so much, 9 sucked)
- Dragonwars
- Bard's tale (the old one)
- Realms of Arkania I,II and III (very detailed games with much party micromanagment and a very nice travel system)

 

[Jasede]

Wizardry 8 is the only game I'd say you /have/ to play, just to see if you are compatible with old-school RPG - with this I mean what RPGs were before Fallout. If you are, more recommendations in that direction can be made; and if you aren't, yeah, Fallout and Gothic.