Security Rebalance Mod for Oblivion

[User was nabbed fit]

This is why people shouldn't have even bought this shit game. Don't support Bethesda.

Meh. The way I see it is that there are already a lot of people who've bought the game (mostly fanboys/people blinded by the outrageous hype), so even if some of us buy it (who know it's not the "perfect game" that reviewers, excuse me, Bethesda's bitches, say it is), it won't change their profits that much...

The ignorant or "casual" gaming crowd will always outnumber those looking for something more along the quality of... Fallout, for example.

I got Oblivion because hey, it's not an RPG, but there's some fun it... if you get the right mods.

 

[aweigh]

Oh, and I never said anything concerning TES security, lock-picking or game mechanics. I was commenting strictly on Saint's D&D ponderings.

 

[bryce777]

26 is not superman, I remenber giants stats that have well over 26 is strenght.

And 26 strenght for a human is not possible when they manage to roll a 18 and then spend their stats points into strenght, at best they can get 23 that way.

Of course plus gear and other things they would pass 26 ...

And it does not create "certain kinks" when wizards are given even more power ... you talk about bashing locks as a bad thing because "only a thief sould open then" when wizards can just open the lock with spells.

Besides TES is a single character game as D&D is a party based system, your whole argument is absurd when seeing that even in D&D a rogue is not a absolute requirement for open locks (bards can do it and wizards carry spells for it) as in TES there are two ways to open locks ... spells and lockpicking.

You are thinking of 3rd edition. Yeah, 45 strength is common in monsters now, but I don't think anything in 1st and 2nd edition had over 26, which is what storm giants had. 26 mapped to about 40 strength or something like that in the 3rd edition rules.

18 was slightly 17, 18(00) was massively stringer than 18, and 23 was like 10x as strong as that.

 

[Blahblah Talks]

that he can bend iron or punch through doors, why would anybody want to use a lock-picking character then?

Breaking down a door or smashing a chest might set off a trap, or damage what is behind/inside. Also, it makes a lot of noise, which alerts the Killer Bees in the next room.

If he can bend iron with his hands and punch through walls or stone, why bother using anything other than unarmed to deal damage? You can enchant fists as easily as a sword.

Certainly makes sense for normal creatures, but by the time you make it that high in level you are dealing with creatures that have immunities to normal weapons.

... without looking for old [anachronisms] to dig up.

 

[Half-Redguard]

Because that introduces certain kinks into the game mechanics that could prove troublesome.

You're speaking here in terms of PnP, right? There have been systems for bending metal bars in all the D&D core books, just in case.

If a thief is wearing gloves of ogre power +4, what's to stop him from using his magically enhanced strength to beat down doors, bend iron bars, punch through stone, etc?

In 3.5 Ed. D&D, investing a lot in STR is not very helpful for Rogues on the long run, especially if they adventure with a mixed group of other classes. STR is not extremely helpful to them for melee combat purposes; their greatest source of melee damage comes from Sneak Attack, which adds extra dice to damage unmodified by STR, and they can apply DEX (their primary Ability) instead of STR to their melee attack rolls thanks to the Weapon Finesse feat.

Breaking doors and bending iron bars with your bare hands requires a bit of STR, but it's not an extremely spectacular feat. Breaking down a strong door and bursting through ropes requires a STR check DC 23, while bending iron bars is DC 24; a character with a STR of 18 can bypass those obstacles simply by Taking 20. Punching through stone is a bit more difficult; a wall with just one inch of thickness has a hardness of 8 and 15 HP, so you'd need a STR of at least 22 (+6) to be able to deal even 1 HP worth of damage with your bare fist, with a lucky roll, assuming you're a medium-sized humanoid with no special bonuses to unarmed damage (1d3+6 = max damage of 9). This would be a messy procedure that takes dozens of rounds to finish, makes a lot of noise, and shakes the whole building. STILL, your average rogue with a base STR of, say, 13, would need more than those Gauntlets of Ogre Power +4 to be able to even bend iron bars. And that rogue would rather be wearing some gloves that boost DEX.

If a warrior has 26 strength, according to 3.5e that means he posesses superhuman strength (10 is the average human's strength, 20 being Conan, and 26 being Superman), why doesn't he break his weapons accidentally every now and then when he grips too hard, or why even bother using a piece of steel to attack with if his fists can punch through stone or bend iron like a pretzel?

A character with a STR of 26 can barely lift a clown car off the ground. That character may carry up to 920 lbs. above the head, lift up to 1840 lbs. off the ground, and push around up 4600 lbs. Small cars like the Prius weigh in over 2000 lbs. Superman? More like... SuperGimp! LOLLERCAUST!!!

There are no rules for "accidental weapon destruction by death grip", you'd have to attempt to break it willingly. Weapons offer the benefits of extra damage, extra reach, wider threat ranges, and special bonuses to trip and disarm if you don't have levels as a Monk or some other unarmed-specialized class, plus you don't provoke an Attack of Opportunity if you don't have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Plus it doesn't sting as much when you're trying to smash your way through a rusty, spiky door, or a creature from the plane of fire, or an ooze.

 

[aweigh]

What I meant with the weapons comment is that if, role-playing-wise, your character is strong enough to bend iron or steel, why is he swinging a weapon? Obviously his body is superhuman, and role-play-wise his fists and feet are stronger than steel. I'm talking about logic here, not about actual game mechanics. This kind of stuff is usually glossed over in D&D because of the prevalence of weaponry and magical artifacts. Remember that once your attributes are in the 20's and up, your character is basically a demi-god in comparison to what D&D considers a "normal" human. Again, speaking in metagame logic, not actual mechanics.

Oh, and if you really want to get into D&D anachronisms... if a medium-sized humanoid wields a medium-sized Spiked Chain he has 10" of Reach and can attack adjacent characters. A medium-sized humanoid is probably around 5'8" - 6'. Now, a small-sized humanoid, like a gnome, uses a small-sized Spiked Chain he still has 10" of reach, same as the medium-sized humanoid. Keep in mind that a gnome is usually around 3 feet tall, maybe less. And both characters occupy the same 5" game space on the hex grid to boot.

Now here's how you twink that shit: you take a medium-sized character and have him dual-wield a medium-sized Spiked Chain in his main hand, and a small-sized Spiked Chain in his off-hand. He has 10" reach with both weapons, and both attack adjacent enemies as well, unlike most other reach weapons. If you further abuse feats like Monkey Grip, Improved Trip, Exotic Stunt and Spring Attack you have a nice Trip/AoO/Reach based character that can wreak havoc on the hex-grid by knocking everyone prone. (When an enemy is prone he receives a -4 to incoming blows, and invokes an AoO whenever he tries to stand up. He is also suceptible to a Coup de Grace.)

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the Monkey Grip is for using a Large-sized Spiked Chain in order to attain 15" reach and more damage dice.

 

[Section8]

Lock bashing should be in the game, but it should be something that draws guards in the area to you pretty quickly since it's a noisy operation. One thing I've never liked about D&D CRPGs is that very, very few of them have the bend bars option for strength, even though that's been a part of the game since the 1st Edition. I'm a heap of muscle, I should be able to kick in a puny wooden door.

Yeah, that's fair enough, and it works brilliantly in games like Arcanum, where the weapon damage it causes is fairly extreme, and it's fucking noisy. But, can you imagine it in Oblivious, where stabbing someone in front of their friends doesn't trigger a reaction, let alone actual sound propagation triggering appropriate responses?

But it's all pretty irrelevant anyway since my mage with 8 points in Security can unlock anything.

Certainly makes sense for normal creatures, but by the time you make it that high in level you are dealing with creatures that have immunities to normal weapons.

Anyone tried Hand-to-Hand against creatures with immunities to normal weapons? (ghosts, wisps, etc.) You'd think that you wouldn't be able to damage them at all, and maybe you'd have to find some magical gauntlets or something wouldn't you?

But no. Bare Knuckles > Ebony, Glass, Elven, Steel, Iron

What I meant with the weapons comment is that if, role-playing-wise, your character is strong enough to bend iron or steel, why is he swinging a weapon? Obviously his body is superhuman, and role-play-wise his fists and feet are stronger than steel.

Well, for one, weapons tend to be sharp and pointy, and even if they're not, the length of them essentially provides an extension of the arm, and the farthest point hits a lot harder.

 

[RK47]

which is why superman doesn't carry a sword. he might kill somebody.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yeah, that's fair enough, and it works brilliantly in games like Arcanum, where the weapon damage it causes is fairly extreme, and it's fucking noisy. But, can you imagine it in Oblivious, where stabbing someone in front of their friends doesn't trigger a reaction, let alone actual sound propagation triggering appropriate responses?

But it's all pretty irrelevant anyway since my mage with 8 points in Security can unlock anything.

Well, naturally, we have to assume the security system in the game works in the first place. There needs to be a reason for a player to consider how worth while it might be for him to make a lot of noise breaking in to something or not. In terms of locks and chests, there should always be a LESS BRAINS, MORE BRAWN option for muscle bound meat head characters with the consequences of not getting in somewhere using a degree of silence and stealth.