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Selaco - A Doom engine FPS inspired by FEAR and the classics

Unreal

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May 6, 2016
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The Centre of the World
Oni has a good combat system, truth be told, but the level design is subpar and even the enemy design isn't that good. It tries tho, it's kind of a weirdo version of a fighting scroller (a genre that died a few years before Oni).

Oh yeah i agree with that, the levels are essentially a series of big rooms to fight in with some locked doors that you need to unlock and a secret item stashed in a corner here and there but they are done in the simplest way possible.

It's something one of the developers said, that their target platform at the time was the iMac G3, which mostly only came with an 8MB ATI Rage 128. And I don't think you can rely on the people who would upgrade to sell your game to the people who wouldn't.

That'd be for the low end requirements, similarly to how any PC title of the time would need to work more than on the most high end PCs. In fact, out of the box the many iMac G3s had RAM below the game's minimum requirements (which would need an upgrade) and for some the CPU wasn't even fast enough.

But as i wrote, there weren't any Mac-specific limitations, the Macs of the time were pretty much as powerful as the PCs of the time. It wouldn't be any different from a game developer targeting old PC specs so your "Macintosh game made within Macintosh limitations" is wrong. There were no Macintosh limitations aside perhaps from using OpenGL instead of Direct3D but OpenGL was also on PC and as i wrote at the time it was at its peak in terms of both performance and features.

It was always talked about as being based on pre-existing research, no one said anything about psychologists literally programming the animation themselves. But the claim of Oni being ‘designed by pro architects’ doesn't make any sense if that isn't literally the case.

I explicitly remember reading in interviews (that was 2003 at most, before the game was released) that Valve hired psychologists so they get the game's NPC interactivity right. It was something that i also remember being referenced at some point in a YouTube video as a joke. That was years ago though, so unless i go sleuthing to find the source of that (which i'm not feeling like doing as it is pointless), i can't point to anything off the top of my head and a quick Google search has a ton of false positives.

But this is beside the point, my point was that i'd take both of these with a grain of salt since PR -even back in the innocent 90s- tends to overexaggerate things. Being designed by pro architects can mean that they hired some architect to create a few concept art-like pieces for how the buildings would look but the actual design was made by the level designers at Bungie. Or it could mean that one of the level designers also had some architecture knowledge - you may not know it but at the time architecture was sold to level designers as something that was very useful for them to know.

Of course it could also be that they hired an architect to design the levels but i'm pretty much certain that wasn't the case.
I mean, Valve likes designers with architectural experience, didn't you know. If anyone's to hire psychologists for game design, it's Valve, so if they say it happened, I believe them. What's an architect, anyway? What do they do? Where is the line drawn between level designer with some knowledge and actual architects? If an architect makes a concept, or even a layout, and level designer models it, who made the level? If a map is like a realistic empty boring building, is it level design? If Macintoshes can be upgraded, will they be? Why didn't Bungie make Macintosh Crysis? What about PC-only games that still got their graphics downgraded before release? Everyone could have just upgraded, they didn't need to do that. Macintosh developers obviously wouldn't take advantage of their more standardized platform to make their game run for most people. They didn't make their game for the weakest iMac so they obviously wanted to make it for only the best but muh PS2. It's not like you could only downgrade the PS2 version and not the others or anything. Game developers are proven idiots so let's listen to Bad Sector instead.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
I mean, Valve likes designers with architectural experience, didn't you know.

Maybe, dunno, what does that have to do with what i wrote though? I don't remember Valve claiming that their levels were designed by pro architects.

If anyone's to hire psychologists for game design, it's Valve, so if they say it happened, I believe them.

Good for you and they probably did later since i found several articles about them doing such a thing - but that was much more recently and not during HL2's development.

What's an architect, anyway?

Why do you jump back to architects? What is the point of that question?

What do they do?

Stuff.

Where is the line drawn between level designer with some knowledge and actual architects?

They are about very different things.

If an architect makes a concept, or even a layout, and level designer models it, who made the level?

Level designers wouldn't model a layout that someone else made, that'd be environment artists (level designers might use modular assets by environment artists though). Level designers are who would make the layout and that layout would have to do with the gameplay, not the architecture in a way that architects would care about - a lot of levels do not make sense architecturally.

If a map is like a realistic empty boring building, is it level design?

Yes, though if it is boring because of how it plays it'd be bad level design. If it is boring because of how it looks then that doesn't have to do with level design but with environment art.

If Macintoshes can be upgraded, will they be?

By themselves? I don't think they can do that.

Why didn't Bungie make Macintosh Crysis?

I'd guess because Crysis was made after Bungie was bought by Microsoft and didn't exist at the time we are hopefully discussing about.

What about PC-only games that still got their graphics downgraded before release?

What about them?

Everyone could have just upgraded, they didn't need to do that. Macintosh developers obviously wouldn't take advantage of their more standardized platform to make their game run for most people.

Are you still referring to Oni here? As i already wrote Macintoshes at the time were pretty much the same as PCs aside from using PowerPC instead of x86 CPUs and the game had a PC version.

They didn't make their game for the weakest iMac so they obviously wanted to make it for only the best

I don't see how one would imply the other. It is like claiming that since a developer who makes PC games doesn't try to support 386 (the weakest 32bit x86 CPU) or -say- Athlon64 (the weakest 64bit x86 CPU), they only make games for a 12th gen i9 / Ryzen 5900X.

Except of course - and i hope you are capable to understand this - system requirements do not work in this extreme way.

but muh PS2.

I realize you are trying to sound stupid with that "muh" here but you are overdoing it because you failed to convey what PS2 has to do with what you were writing so far.

It's not like you could only downgrade the PS2 version and not the others or anything.

PS2 has nothing to do with what i wrote, try to understand what others are writing before writing random pseudo-vague garbage in an attempt to sound smart.

Game developers are proven idiots so let's listen to Bad Sector instead.

Never claimed anything like that.
 

Unreal

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I ask stupid questions because you make stupid statements.

Level designers wouldn't model a layout that someone else made, that'd be environment artists (level designers might use modular assets by environment artists though). Level designers are who would make the layout and that layout would have to do with the gameplay, not the architecture in a way that architects would care about - a lot of levels do not make sense architecturally.
Looking at MobyGames, Oni's credits list list ‘level modelling’ and ‘designers’, so that's probably the case here, which is entirely believable given how gameplay is, but otherwise that's an assumption that only applies to some games. Looking at 90s shooters, the expectation is that the level designers do all the modelling themselves, because why wouldn't they. Some games don't have those convenient level editors, but the modeller and the designer might still be the same. Because modelling is half or even most of the design, and if you can have one guy do it all himself, that's easier than two guys trying to do it.

What does that have to do with Oni, and what does any of this have to do with Selaco? Your mom lmao
 

SharkClub

Cipher
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
800
Strap Yourselves In
I played the demo and it's pretty good. I think I mentioned somewhere before about how all these boomer shooters are mixing together in my mind and that I'm getting boomer shooter fatigue, in reference to this game specifically. Allow me to reassess then because Selaco actually plays differently enough that it's kinda like a blend of something like Ion Fury, FEAR and System Shock 1. I tried to put 0451 in a code panel and the game electrocuted me and told me it wasn't an immersive sim though. I also don't mind female protagonists if they aren't goblina bulldykes and have no aversion to cute girls so that's fine by me.

Looking forward to the final product, wishlisted it and will keep an eye on it.
 

yellowcake

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Dec 11, 2007
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Alas! in my skull
I played Oni not long after release (and many times since) and remember actualy thinking at that time that level or environment design was great and had to be inspired by real architectural designs. Later I encountered the claim that it was in fact so and was not surprised.

As an example of this architectural thinking - there is a lot of verticality in the game; there are levels that take cue from known architectural concepts like atrium building with open space in the middle that goes vertically through all floor planes, with serpentine stairways around etc. Big open halls with galleries of smaller interiors on the side etc. All in all there's a feeling of construction - not that the interiors are thought out from the inside as one added to another, but rather that an environment was first constructed like an actual building - supporting elements, resting elements (floor planes), and then gameplay path was implemented inside.

I think that it greatly added to the game atmosphere as it takes place in cyberpunk cityscapes & industrial districts, airport etc. that levels feel like actual buildings with a real purpose.

I didn't mind emptiness tbh and it made appreciating "architecture" easier and performance better. The combat system is still next to none IMO.
 

Lagi

Savant
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Jul 19, 2015
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Desert
release date 2255? devs hope for some imminent breakthrough in human live span increase.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
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Nov 4, 2012
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The Satellite Of Love
Really liking the demo. Too many of these throwback shooters feel like cheap copies but this feels fresh and original, albeit with some pretty clear visual and gameplay influences. This could easily shape up to be the best of the subgenre.

Slide kick is fucking retarded though.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
Looking at MobyGames, Oni's credits list list ‘level modelling’ and ‘designers’, so that's probably the case here, which is entirely believable given how gameplay is, but otherwise that's an assumption that only applies to some games. Looking at 90s shooters, the expectation is that the level designers do all the modelling themselves, because why wouldn't they. Some games don't have those convenient level editors, but the modeller and the designer might still be the same. Because modelling is half or even most of the design, and if you can have one guy do it all himself, that's easier than two guys trying to do it.

You are confusing environment art and visuals with level design, these two are separate things even if they are done by the same guy.
 

Unreal

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Looking at MobyGames, Oni's credits list list ‘level modelling’ and ‘designers’, so that's probably the case here, which is entirely believable given how gameplay is, but otherwise that's an assumption that only applies to some games. Looking at 90s shooters, the expectation is that the level designers do all the modelling themselves, because why wouldn't they. Some games don't have those convenient level editors, but the modeller and the designer might still be the same. Because modelling is half or even most of the design, and if you can have one guy do it all himself, that's easier than two guys trying to do it.

You are confusing environment art and visuals with level design, these two are separate things even if they are done by the same guy.
:hmmm:
 

Curratum

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Joined
May 14, 2018
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Imagine trying to argue or reason with Unreal, where the only thing that's unreal about him is how dense he is.
 

Jenkem

お前はもう死んでいる
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Make the Codex Great Again!
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yeah, I'm out...
 

Curratum

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You'd be fabulously optimistic to think that any project made by the Doom community, commercial or not, that has a team working on it, will not have some LGBTQ stuff on it. It's empirically impossible.
 

Alienman

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