Game News Short-term memory loss plagues the Wastelands of Fallout 3

[Silellak]

So why provide consequences if you're a keystroke away from erasing them anyway? Not much point, is there?

Because the option is there NOT to just load your game and "fix" your mistake. Some people like to load after screwing up, others don't. Bethesda is basically saying "Aw, don't worry, we'll make sure you can never, ever screw yourself over TOO much."

It is in the spirit of Fallout to let you completely and totally screw yourself over if you decide to do so. For whatever reason, Bethesda has apparently decided to remove that possibility.

You may not have realized this but: IT'S A GAME. It has 0 chance of avoiding a feeling of gaminess. Even if your idea of "consequences" were in effect it would feel like a game because I can't do everything I could in real life to dodge them. It becomes an apparent game mechanic more than anything else.

Of course it's a game, and will always to some extent "feel like a game", but with RPGs in particular I like to immerse myself in the world that game takes place in. To me, having an entire town forget I killed half the people in it 24 hours after doing so is a lot more immersion-breaking than having them remember it was me. Neither are a perfect, realistic reaction, but I think having them remember is a lot better than having them forget entirely.

In Fallout 3, it seems I can affect the world, but only as long as I don't break the precious plot path the designers have laid out for me.

This is how most modern games are, but that's not how a Fallout game should be.

 

[Brother None]

get the sheriff and every citizen chasing you with guns ablaze

I wonder if they go "Halt! Halt! Halt!" the whole time they're chasing you?

Ah man

Radiant AI classics

If they're going to do large-scale things like resetting the hostility of an entire town, expect Radiant AI to mess up and the town to turn into one enormous infight.

2) Never let the player go back without everyone in town hunting him down. (WHAA, the game's broken and I can't be evil and complete the game!)

Uhhh...what? We're talking about the reaction to being a psychopath and killing innocent people in broad daylight. That's not evil. That's stupid. And if you get punished for it thumbs up.

Evil gameplay should not be punished. But being a retard that gets the wrath of an entire town on his neck is not exactly high-end evil gameplay.

Though I suppose you're right, it's probably the best Bethesda has to offer. Man, you're harsh on Bethesda, Sarvis, essentially saying their only evil choice is stupid-evil.

 

[Kingston]

lol sarvis

 

[elander_]

This is the mark of Bethesda. Every time i play one of their games it tells me everything is a big joke. I enjoyed Bethesda for the immersion their games were capable of creating but now i can't play them because their paranoid retard-player protective measures are screwing immersion completely.

 

[Sarvis]

get the sheriff and every citizen chasing you with guns ablaze

I wonder if they go "Halt! Halt! Halt!" the whole time they're chasing you?

Ah man

Radiant AI classics

If they're going to do large-scale things like resetting the hostility of an entire town, expect Radiant AI to mess up and the town to turn into one enormous infight.

2) Never let the player go back without everyone in town hunting him down. (WHAA, the game's broken and I can't be evil and complete the game!)

Uhhh...what? We're talking about the reaction to being a psychopath and killing innocent people in broad daylight. That's not evil. That's stupid. And if you get punished for it thumbs up.

Evil gameplay should not be punished. But being a retard that gets the wrath of an entire town on his neck is not exactly high-end evil gameplay.

Though I suppose you're right, it's probably the best Bethesda has to offer. Man, you're harsh on Bethesda, Sarvis, essentially saying their only evil choice is stupid-evil.

The funny thing is, even if you randomly shoot people in broad daylight... ONLY the people in the area at the time will ever have a chance of recognizing you.

And really, if you did it right they're dead anyway...


A thought occurs: Why shouldn't the populace let you back into town? Even in the old west when famous robbers were running around everywhere they got to come into town. In fact, everyone just ran to hide!

 

[crakkie]

The funny thing is, even if you randomly shoot people in broad daylight... ONLY the people in the area at the time will ever have a chance of recognizing you.

30 people see you walk into town. Now 30 people know what you look like. 2 others see you kill someone. Those 2 now know you as a killer. They tell the other 30 what you did. Now 32 people know you as a killer and know what you look like.

And really, if you did it right they're dead anyway...

Yes, you kill someone, kill all the witnesses, and kill the witnesses to those murders, so on and so forth until the entire town is dead. Are you envisioning some kind of modern NYC RPG with 10,000,000 NPCs? Because then this might work. But in Fallout-sized communities it does not.

A thought occurs: Why shouldn't the populace let you back into town? Even in the old west when famous robbers were running around everywhere they got to come into town. In fact, everyone just ran to hide!

Like most unarmed, unintoxicated people in fallout 1/2?

 

[Mareus]

How do they come up with these decisions? Do they all get in a room and decide them?

I have a hard time anyone would agree to that. Are they using Drugs?

No, there is a lot of thought put into every decision. They are probably trying to implement some of PST into the game, and the loss of memory is probably due to exposure to radiation. And since you lived your hole life in the vault no one ever enters and no one ever leaves, once you leave you don't have the problem. One of 200 endings will probably be of you losing your memory and getting a black screen with achievments list.

 

[Sarvis]

The funny thing is, even if you randomly shoot people in broad daylight... ONLY the people in the area at the time will ever have a chance of recognizing you.

30 people see you walk into town. Now 30 people know what you look like. 2 others see you kill someone. Those 2 now know you as a killer. They tell the other 30 what you did. Now 32 people know you as a killer and know what you look like.

HEy, asshat: We're talking about CITIES here. Even fallout cities are cities <i>because of the traffic going through them.</i> That's how cities form, lot's of people going in and out.

I already said this won't work in a small town or village with a few people in it. In fact, as I said earlier, in such a situation you'll be the suspect <i>even if no one witnesses anything</i> because you're the stranger.

Yes, you kill someone, kill all the witnesses, and kill the witnesses to those murders, so on and so forth until the entire town is dead. Are you envisioning some kind of modern NYC RPG with 10,000,000 NPCs? Because then this might work. But in Fallout-sized communities it does not.

How long does it really take to fire 5 shots? A second or two? If your aim is good, you'll kill the victim and the two people watching without there being any further witnesses.

Like most unarmed, unintoxicated people in fallout 1/2?

OMG! No consequences for your actions!

 

[Redeye]

... Even then you could throw him off with a change of clothes or dying your hair.

So until games advance to a point where:
1) Pissing off one "cop" does not mean pissing off every "cop" in the area (same for all characters, really)
2) Cops must learn your face to recognize you
3) Characters appearances can change with makeup, time, clothing, and experiences
4) Probably a few other things

You're going to be stuck with those first two options, and you'll whine about either implementation.

Social Camoflauge skill?

Synergistic with Sneak and Speech. (With Int/Cha/Luck modifier.)

Items, traits, perks modify.
(Good Natured, etc.)

On a total success for a town (meaning multiple high rolls with 3 or more ppl) you are totally reset for that town (need Social Camo option in dialogue- as a button and/or so-cam option in parenthesis next to text), partial success gives temporary access to "untainted" dialogue with the rest of reactions set to suspicious/guarded, partial failure is reverse of partial success (guarded at best, negative dialogue otherwise) what is left is failure.

Time would also be a modifier, with different levels of antipathy taking longer to expire. Some might never expire. (Certain individuals would have their own exception states, of course. Some of this would be reasonable and some would be for tard-friendliness.)


This all takes more work, but is not beyond existing technology.

 

[Sarvis]

Even that is pretty ham handed.

To be correct:

People who saw you commit the action should have a high chance of recognizing you despite the disguise.
People who know the witnesses should have a low chance to recognize you without disguise, and 0 chance with a disguise unless you get a critical failure.


Even that stuff should be modified by things like darkness, the number of other people around when they see you and what they are doing at the time. (Someone trying to reign in an unruly kid might not even notice you despite being a witness for instance.)

The problem is that most games seem to use some kind of faction system, which is far to broad and heavy handed to really do anything appropriate for something like this. The moment you start talking about the town rolling to recognize the player, it's a failed system.

 

[elander_]

Too bad nothing of that matters and you can still go into Megaton, kill half a dozen of their citizens in front of the xerif, dance on top of their corpses and then return a few days later and everything will be forgotten. And this because some retards may want to play like retards and still be able to visit the town later. Screw those who want to role-play and expect believable reactions in a crpg. Bethesda shooting his one foot twice.

 

[Geofferic]

I so look forward to the mods for this game. It'll be a lot of fun after the community fixes it.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

If every member of the Codex went to Sarvis' house and gave him $100 he'd still bitch.

 

[Sarvis]

If every member of the Codex went to Sarvis' house and gave him $100 he'd still bitch.

No, I'd go find some hookers and blow.

 

[Dire Roach]

I have a memory-related question: why was Sarvis's dumbfuck tag removed? Did he donate or something?

 

[Nael]

A thought occurs: Why shouldn't the populace let you back into town? Even in the old west when famous robbers were running around everywhere they got to come into town. In fact, everyone just ran to hide!

A thought occurs: You've been watching too much Bonanza on the Christian channel.

 

[Sarvis]

A thought occurs: Why shouldn't the populace let you back into town? Even in the old west when famous robbers were running around everywhere they got to come into town. In fact, everyone just ran to hide!

A thought occurs: You've been watching too much Bonanza on the Christian channel.

Honestly, never really got into westerns for some reason. Nor would I ever go near the Christian channel...

 

[Azrael the cat]

Yep, and I'm guessing those are the same morons complaining about how in Clear Sky they've ended up with all the factions hating them and not being able to take any quests because they've killed random guys from each faction in front of their comrades for their gear...

...not getting into the whole 'is Clear Sky good' thing - I'm loving it, I understand that for some it's unplayably buggy and so forth, but you have to admit that that particular criticism is utterly retarded...

I recently had the term, "The Confetti Generation", introduced to me... meaning, the current generation of teens and 20-somethings have grown up having never been wrong, having never been denied, and having never been disappointed.

I think that's a little unfair, and would go so far as to re-appropriate the term to "The Confetti Demographic", instead.

There's a certain segment of our culture that has never had to deal with any actual consequence... I know people in their 40s like this. (And their teens, 20s, and 30s too, of course.)

It's no wonder (yet still disappointing) that game companies feel the need to cater to this demographic. I mean, we all play these game to escape the ordinary and be somewhat godly for a time... but it's far more interesting to navigate a finite, consequence-filled ruleset in the long run.

If there's not, you might as well just flail randomly at the air in front of you.

2c

 

[Whispering Darkness]

I think the idea of NPCs forgetting certain things can be good. As in theft for example. Maybe murder on a very small scale. But killing sprees for no reason but to 'mess around'. Having the wrath of the town makes sense. Most the the towns of Fallout have lots of guards everywhere. Namely the entrances. So unless you kill all the guards at the entrances I would think guards would stop you upon entering said town. Shooting you on site, etc etc.

 

[Fez]

I'd imagine that in a land where people were as desperate as they say they are designing them as they would have little to no tolerance for an unknown drifter committing even petty theft. You would most likely be killed or at least brutally punished and ostracized in such an environment.

 

[Whispering Darkness]

Yeah that is true, would imagine they have no tolerance to pretty much anything with the situation being desperate with the whole "surviving' thing.

 

[elander_]

I fear that with the small number of places providing quests in Fallout 3 the main quest will be a big part of it and in this case it's necessary to ensure the player can progress in it. This is not the way the old Fallout handles failure. Instead of soft consequences and unkillable chars they made sure the player had an alternative path in most cases. If he manages to screw his second chance then that quest is over but there's always other quests to do. If the player wishes he can kill everyone in the game and still manage to know what to do to finish the game from logs and data disks.