So, Baldurs Gate

[Storyfag]

DraQ and Glyphwrite need to have a baby. Their child will grow up to be an author and write the longest, most pointless books in existence. Geez.

You need to add Wyrmbot to get that result. An unholy threesome indeed. Esp. if liberal brings his Spanish "friends".

 

[Rake]

It was an extra. Seems like it was thrown in as filler content to keep things interesting and feeling big and epic and shit. Going to rescue Minsc's witch was a little more complicated than just clicking on a map point etc. The game is not about exploration as a central theme. It was just a tool the designers tried to use to flesh out the feel of the game and the world in general. I didn't hate it and I didn't love it either. I could not be more meh about this current crop of multipage butthurt.

No arguement about that.

 

[DraQ]

I have already shown the ways in which exploration in BG1 is good in this thread (large open world with a large variety of interesting unique things to discover, beautiful terrain to traverse, etc).

And I have shown why it doesn't matter without activity of exploring.

Except that BG1's exploration has tons of decision making, both in terms of the world (which zone to go to out of a large number), and within each individual zone, as there are many possible ways to traverse them.

And that changes the end result how exactly?

They are as much decisions as those between BW trademark dialogue options.

finding fun stuff

No. Not 'finding'.
Inevitably stumbling upon stuff.

So exploration.

 

[TedNugent]

I'm gonna QFT this for the TL;DRtards

Have you considered that the reason we are getting one shitty-ass RPG like Oblivion, Faggout 3, Faggot AIDS and Ass Defect after another today is because, while nerds intelligent people are engaged by quality storytelling, unique game-world, complex story, interesting characters, and choices&consequences, OTHERS (morons) are more interested in playing as an awesome-ass guy who throws bad-ass lightning at nasty-ass monsters to get epic-ass Sword of Trembling Anuses?

 

[Grunker]

No. Not 'finding'.
Inevitably stumbling upon stuff.

So exploration.

Just because you think exploration means "skilled research and difficult discovery manipulating the environment in first person" it doesn't become true, you fucking nutter. Exploration only indicates the search and the discovery, not any other particulars invented in your mind because you happen to find something interesting or cool. Besides that, everything you claim about BG only makes sense in your theoretical ramblings. In practice, I have never, EVER met anyone in real life who discovered everything there was to discover in BG1 on their first playthrough, most people miss tons of shit, even something under their noses, because the game is so packed with content. Yet you claim you inevitably stumble into it all.

No more inevitably than you stumble into anything if you autistically search every corner of any game.

Your basis for arguing this shit will never become reasonable as long as you hold everything accountable to your own hypothetical and highly subjective standard of "X can only be good in first person and Morrowind is the best game ever, nyah."

 

[TedNugent]

No more inevitably than you stumble into anything if you autistically search every corner of any game.

Sounds like a fun game. I wanna autistically search every corner of a bunch of rectangular maps.

 

[Grunker]

No more inevitably than you stumble into anything if you autistically search every corner of any game.

Sounds like a fun game. I wanna autistically search every corner of a bunch of rectangular maps.

I think you're lacking a bit in your english comprehension there bro. My point was that any game has inevitability if you autistically search every corner on every screen in it.

 

[TedNugent]

No more inevitably than you stumble into anything if you autistically search every corner of any game.

Sounds like a fun game. I wanna autistically search every corner of a bunch of rectangular maps.

I think you're lacking a bit in your english comprehension there bro. My point was that any game has inevitability if you autistically search every corner on every screen in it.

Particularly this one, amirite?

Maybe you should ask yourself whether certain aspects of the game design make autistic behavior an inevitability, this one in particular. In any case, the operative point is that there's absolutely nothing enjoyable about this particular brand of "exploration."

 

[Grunker]

Maybe you should ask yourself whether certain aspects of the game design make autistic behavior an inevitability, this one in particular.

we've got a slow one

Besides that, everything you claim about BG only makes sense in your theoretical ramblings. In practice, I have never, EVER met anyone in real life who discovered everything there was to discover in BG1 on their first playthrough, most people miss tons of shit, even something under their noses, because the game is so packed with content. Yet you claim you inevitably stumble into it all.

exhaustive exploration is a playing style that some players enact upon all games with exploration, it is in no way an artefact of baldur's gate
has the great draq finally succumbed to the chefe-strategy of making alts to agree with himself?

 

[octavius]

The problem is that there is absolutely no reason not to and once you decide to explore a map you're guaranteed to find everything there is to it because there is no way to omit something without doing it on purpose.
The only possible exception are containers ingeniously disguised as generic scenery indistinguishable from actual generic scenery, but when you use the fact that player will spend most of the time sweeping the screen with his cursor in your game as argument for it having exploration, you know you've gone pretty deep.

Compare Morrowind, where thoroughly combing the entire gameplay area is simply unfeasible so you have to choose where to go, you need to identify actual spots of interest even if you levitate, and it's easy to overlook hidden items or places even if you're convinced you're searching some location thoroughly.

Of course exploration in Morrowind, with it's 3D environment and FPP, should be more rewarding and more complex than in an isometric game. Just like party based combat in isometric games should be more rewarding and more complex than combat in a FPP game.
Baldur's Gate's exploration is mostly about finding encounters; either friendly (possibly hostile) NPCs, or monsters.
Morrowind's exploration is more like a hiking simulator in an alien world where you may find interesting stuff (items and places of interest) in unexpected places.

But both games' exploration ultimately boils down to uncovering the fog of war, Baldur's Gate from the main playing area, Morrowind from the mini map. And no, it's not unfeasible to do this in Morrowind, the game world is not that big.

 

[DraQ]

Just because you think exploration means "skilled research and difficult discovery manipulating the environment in first person" it doesn't become true, you fucking nutter.

Strawman, my retarded friend, strawman.

I only claimed that first person and 3D in general are naturally well suited for exploration because they inherently allow for certain things overhead views don't (keeping visual perspective in character makes keeping visual information in character much easier, imagine that ), but earlier I did state that overhead game with gameplay area huge enough to be effectively unbounded for gameplay purposes, forcing player to *choose* where they will go, might also have exploration.

I even mentioned *how* you could make exploration work in BG style game, under condition that it wouldn't necessarily rely on strictly spatial traversal, but learning to discern particular hotspot and knowledge combined with ability to do the right thing there.

Exploration only indicates the search and the discovery, not any other particulars invented in your mind because you happen to find something interesting or cool. Besides that, everything you claim about BG only makes sense in your theoretical ramblings.

How about that:

If I can experience something about game just as well by watching someone else play it on YT, then it's not a bloody gameplay element.

In practice, I have never, EVER met anyone in real life who discovered everything there was to discover in BG1 on their first playthrough, most people miss tons of shit, even something under their noses, because the game is so packed with content. Yet you claim you inevitably stumble into it all.

So what is it that you can *miss* in BG1?

I'm not talking about rare (in BG) alternative quest solution, intraparty conflict or a bit of dialogue - I'm talking about object or location you can find on any of the maps in game.

No more inevitably than you stumble into anything if you autistically search every corner of any game.

Not every game can be autistically searched in this way.

Some games are simply too big. For example if you wanted to autistically search every corner of Frontier's galaxy, then even assuming 1 minute per system with no backtracking it would take you several thousands years real time.

Making game 3D FPP or close TPP actually also vastly expands search space more than just adding an extra dimension does, because relevant stuff can be hidden virtually in every possible view (considering environment only) that can be rendered in game, and actual objects can be much smaller relative to your character and may be stuck to various surfaces, obscured from some angles, blend into the background or just require illumination to be seen.

Your basis for arguing this shit will never become reasonable as long as you hold everything accountable to your own hypothetical and highly subjective standard of "X can only be good in first person and Morrowind is the best game ever, nyah."

How about that:
You're retarded and keep inventing strawmen.

 

[Delterius]

So what is it that you can *miss* in BG1?

Much like Morrowind, just about anything and everything that is optional. Meaning most of the game.

 

[DraQ]

Of course exploration in Morrowind, with it's 3D environment and FPP, should be more rewarding and more complex than in an isometric game. Just like party based combat in isometric games should be more rewarding and more complex than combat in a FPP game.

Actually I had far more fun with Wizardry 8 combat, which is FPP, than with BG combat, at least 1.

But both games' exploration ultimately boils down to uncovering the fog of war, Baldur's Gate from the main playing area, Morrowind from the mini map. And no, it's not unfeasible to do this in Morrowind, the game world is not that big.

Actually, that's untrue and the crux of the difference between those two games in regards to exploration.

Yes, you have minimap in Morrowind and yes, it has fog of war showing where you've actually been (provided it doesn't bug out which it often does). However merely uncovering minimap is shit indicator of whether you've found what's there to be found in the area in Morrowind, while what you have uncovered is pretty much synonymous with what you've found in BG.

So what is it that you can *miss* in BG1?

Just about anything and everything that is optional.

I wasn't asking about what's optional. I was asking about what you'd miss.

The only missable content, in terms of exploration, are hidden stashes, but they are pretty much implemented in the worst way imaginable since there is no way of actually discerning them from generic background objects, so you have to wave your cursor all over the gameplay area, which is hardly something you could use in game's defense
- amusingly enough Morrowind has only one case of an object hidden as cheaply as all hidden items in BG (infamous Ebony Shortsword of Odai Plateau), two if you consider that tree stump container in Bloodmoon.

 

[Glyphwright]

Since when was BG about exploration, you fucking morons?

It wasn't, it's just one retarded fanboy being butthurt at being told obvious truth.

DraQ and Glyphwrite need to have a baby. Their child will grow up to be an author and write the longest, most pointless books in existence. Geez. Only on the Codex will you find people with enough time on their hands to write a 13 paragraph essay on a game they don't like and not get compensated for it.

If I couldn't get the entertainment I wanted from a game I played/movie I watched/book I read, I will get my entertainment by picking apart its flaws and giving it its deserved verdict. Tgus is why I spent so much time on the Wheel of Time forum, arguing with retarded butthurt fanboys, until the moderators stealth-banned me to keep their corrupt little fansite "buy this book bestest thing evah" propaganda going.

Oh fuck, Wheel of Time. One day I will impale your crappy writing, legion of plotholes, and completely unlikable characters upon my Sword of Truth. If I had a choice between going back in time and preventing WWII or preventing Wheel of Time from being written, I'd give the matter some serious thought.

BG is the original good for what it is. It has faults, but it's far incline above the current decline. Now STFU.

BG1 hasn't aged well at all, in terms of roleplaying and storytelling quality, as well as level design. You could take the entirety of BG2 and release it exactly as it is today, and no one would realize the game is almost 15 years old. In fact, it would be ahead of the curb. BG1 however would be instantly noticeable as a relic from ages long past.

 

[DraQ]

Drunkard Grunker
As a bonus point - you could also have exploration in 2d sidescrolling context despite it being 2d and not at all FPP.

 

[Delterius]

Not really DraQ. Optional content in itself implies missable content. It relies on the player's own initiative in order to become part of the experience. And as far as the player's experience goes, much of what makes Morrowind what it is are less the specificities of its perspective, and simply much more content that is far from the main road. Making it similar to Baldur's Gate and most importantly different only in a matter of scale.

Take Baldur's Gate for an instance. Whereupon you can follow the main plot hooks from town to town. You can take a straight path through the Friendly Arm to Beregost, Nashkel and etcetera without a care for the cursed captain of the latter town's Guard. Or the third level necrophilliac cleric close to Beregost. Just in the same way you can go straight to Balmora without finding the Master's Ring so close to the starting area in Morrowind -- after all, that's what the NPCs told you to do. Just like Gorion did.

And even if you decide to listen to the random rumours. Even if you decide to take on the side quests as they present themselves, you still won't find everything that is in the game. You'll miss pirate cove on the coast; you'll most likely miss the basilisks; as well as gripping content like the Xvart Village. Granted its not that much, especially before you get to the Baldur's Gate proper. But there's a lot of content that strays from the main road. And which can and have been missed. Wether or not navigation competences are challenged by the game doesn't change that.

So let me put things this way. Many of your considerations are valid. Who else could have known that the top down and first person considerations could be so different? I kid, but what I mean to say is that you can't really change what BG is. Which isn't IWD. Where the almost no map is optional and it is very hard to miss content. If you must call 'exploration' something more specific than it is and I must use the word 'discovery' for the way BG presents itself, then so be it. But nothing's changed.

 

[DraQ]

Not really DraQ. Optional content in itself implies missable content.

Not any more than optional quests imply C&C.

Seriously, I feel as if I was trying to hammer simple fact that Oblivion has no C&C through some fan's thick skull and it's making me fucking uncomfortable.

Missing implies you tried to hit, after all, while in BG, unless you specifically aim to avoid the content you're pretty much guaranteed to exhaust it.

 

[Glyphwright]

Take Baldur's Gate for an instance. Whereupon you can follow the main plot hooks from town to town. You can take a straight path through the Friendly Arm to Beregost, Nashkel and etcetera without a care for the cursed captain of the latter town's Guard. Or the third level necrophilliac cleric close to Beregost. Just in the same way you can go straight to Balmora without finding the Master's Ring so close to the starting area in Morrowind -- after all, that's what the NPCs told you to do. Just like Gorion did.

Except, you'd still have to walk through all the "optional" areas between Friendly Arm Inn and Beregost, being chased by farmers, paladins, potential party members, bandits asking for money, all wanting to give you a fedex quest. Do you even remember playing Baldur's Gate? Encounters aren't being discovered or uncovered, they practically throw themselves at you, automatically engaging you in dialogue as soon as you walk within a certain distance of them. Even when they don't, there's virtually no chance of having to put any actual intelligent effort into searching, i.e. exploring the area because all you need to do is click "left, left, left, down, down down, right, right, right" on the edge of the receding for of war.

Oh, and the fact that you do not have to travel to optional areas doesn't count as exploration in any but the most trivial and technical sense. It's the equivalent of saying that Bioware has a fully-functional dialogue system because you can choose between "I want a bigger reward" and "Nevermind, I'll be going now". Stop artificially reducing your standards to deflect valid criticism, it's what butthurt fanboys do. Butthurt fanboys in defense of wheel of time.

 

[Delterius]

Nah, I agree with you DraQ. Nothing at all would change in Morrowind if I couldn't look around and just got teleported straight into the 'next map', be it Balmora or some nearby crypt.

 

[octavius]

I wish BioWare would make a Wheel of Time CRPG.

 

[Grunker]

Nah, I agree with you DraQ. Nothing at all would change in Morrowind if I couldn't look around and just got teleported straight into the 'next map', be it Balmora or some nearby crypt.

Vault Dweller

 

[Delterius]

Well, we are talking about one of those things that make up a 'full scale' RPG.

 

[GarfunkeL]

]Except, you'd still have to walk through all the "optional" areas between Friendly Arm Inn and Beregost, being chased by farmers, paladins, potential party members, bandits asking for money, all wanting to give you a fedex quest.

Liberal, you Georgian prize-stallion, you obviously don't remember how the NPC's tell you to stick to the road to "stay safe". Even Elminster himself says so. Newbie player probably follows that advice, at least in the beginning. And then you miss nearly all random encounters and vast majority of scripted encounters.

 

[Glyphwright]

Liberal, you Georgian prize-stallion, you obviously don't remember how the NPC's tell you to stick to the road to "stay safe". Even Elminster himself says so.

I haven't even remotely considered following that retarded advice, which doesn't even matter because there are plenty of encounters located along the road, especially in starting areas.

And then you miss nearly all random encounters and vast majority of scripted encounters.

Blow me, you don't miss that much.

I wish BioWare would make a Wheel of Time CRPG.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

BG is the original good for what it is. It has faults, but it's far incline above the current decline. Now STFU.

BG1 hasn't aged well at all, in terms of roleplaying and storytelling quality, as well as level design. You could take the entirety of BG2 and release it exactly as it is today, and no one would realize the game is almost 15 years old. In fact, it would be ahead of the curb. BG1 however would be instantly noticeable as a relic from ages long past.

Yep. And? It's still a halfway decent game with a decent story that isn't about saving the world, decent (if not too fleshed out) characters, and a combat system that isn't a dumbed down, no-party-perma-kill-having, consolized piece of garbage. Is it the best game evah omg!!! Nope. But it's hardly the worst.