So, Baldurs Gate

[Invictus]

I have always believed that C&C and more evolved character based options for something other than combat where not the main concern of Bioware. They where more, as DraQ says storyfags interested in having a backdrop to tell their adventure, sort of an interactive D&D module.
It is sort of the difference of choosing to do a tight focused storyline over a sandboxy experience.
For the record I think the overall storyline of the Baldurs Gate games where quite good and memorable...I wouldn't even pirate the EE because of my particular distaste for Trent and his croonies but I understand it is good safe place for newcomers to experience the games

 

[Nuclear Explosion]

The story is good?

I assume so. Why else would everyone praise these games as the second coming? Am I wrong? Please tell me yes, so I can quit worrying that I'm missing out on something.

I've only played the first but the story is super generic, so yeah you're not missing out on much.

 

[eremita]

"Be it know to all of evil intent.." ? This doesnt make sense.

It does in Forgotten Realms where there are spells like Detect Alignment.

So its the norm in AD&D tabletop games ?

"Oh, come all over me!"

"I cant, miss, Im lawful-good"

I mean, characters actually think and talk like that in-game ?

Obviously, you didn't play Torment, which shows how deep and interesting concept of "substantial" alignment can be. But I imagine it has to be pretty weird for people who are not familiar with pen and paper DnD and its modules. I played them since childhood so I it never strikes me as odd when playing IE games for the first time.

Also, I have never played any other game (ok, nostalgia and me being 15 when I played it for the first time might have something to do with it) that would capture the essence of my DnD sessions so well. It was quite magical back then actually (I get to meet Drizzt and Elminster motherfuckers!).

 

[Infinitron]

I think most evil people in the Forgotten Realms don't "know" that they're evil, but the organized types who worship an explicitly evil god like Cyric do.

 

[eremita]

I have always believed that C&C and more evolved character based options for something other than combat where not the main concern of Bioware. They where more, as DraQ says storyfags interested in having a backdrop to tell their adventure, sort of an interactive D&D module.
It is sort of the difference of choosing to do a tight focused storyline over a sandboxy experience.
For the record I think the overall storyline of the Baldurs Gate games where quite good and memorable...I wouldn't even pirate the EE because of my particular distaste for Trent and his croonies but I understand it is good safe place for newcomers to experience the games

BG2 is not as nonlinear as Torment or Fallout for example but there is definetly a lot of C&C. At least by today standards.

 

[SwiftCrack]

I think most evil people in the Forgotten Realms don't "know" that they're evil, but the organized types who worship an explicitly evil god like Cyric do.

*Insert deep philosophical discussion about does the evil man see himself as a good man here*

 

[sea]

I tend to view Baldur's Gate a bit like the Morrowind of its time - a big open game world with lots of exploration and questing, a fairly complex rule system that governs the world in a consistent way, relatively light story but with good tie-ins to the surprisingly deep lore, lore itself that is well fleshed out (though in Baldur's Gate's case it's mostly taken from other D&D properties), some decent but limited choice & consequence in dealing with quests, and some of the same level scaling-type systems when it comes to combat and encounter design.

Really, it's a solid game, and for its "D&D sandbox" qualities I like it more than the second game, even, which, while still good, feels a lot more linear and limited as far as locations go. I miss that huge sprawling wilderness with tons of secrets and hidden dungeons. But it's not really a "great" game either for the same reasons one could argue the Elder Scrolls games aren't "great", so I can understand if some people don't like it. And yes, ultimately BioWare's take on Forgotten Realms is boring as hell.

 

[DraQ]

Obviously, you didn't play Torment, which shows how deep and interesting concept of "substantial" alignment can be.

The half point of PS:T was deconstructing and fucking around with what it couldn't change about the nature of the setting to the point of making shit like alignment nearly meaningless.

That's one of the reasons it inspired such an undying love.

 

[DraQ]

I tend to view Baldur's Gate a bit like the Morrowind of its time - a big open game world with lots of exploration and questing

The problems being that the world itself is just plain boring and generic, and that exploration just doesn't work if all it boils down to is de-shrouding a big rectangle an waving your cursor around to uncover hotspots disguised as generic scenery identical to all the other generic scenery.

In a 3D title you can have some exploration, because ultimately the possible details are much finer and separating just scenery from points of interests is neither completely arbitrary (like BG1's secret hotspots), nor trivial (like everything else in BG1) - you can have stuff hidden in plain sight while actually being visible. You can also have complex 3D maps with entire hidden areas, which doesn't work if all you have to do is walking along unexplored terrain's boundry (which is a line in 2D) to find if there is some way in.

Faux 3D (tile based) can also offer meaningful exploration in similar vein.

Even 2D without small, neatly delimited maps can, but that's because it can have gameplay area that's too big to just be searched exhaustively.

IE style 2D just can't, it's all just:

while(black)
{
   go(black);
   wave_cursor_around();
}

a fairly complex rule system that governs the world in a consistent way

Too bad PnP rulests were never meant to be comprehensive in a way that would allow them to do interesting stuff without GM's interpretation and supervision.

the surprisingly deep lore, lore itself that is well fleshed out (though in Baldur's Gate's case it's mostly taken from other D&D properties)

And that's the joke - Whereas TES lore and gameplay intertwine, BG lore was completely disjoint from the game itself.

some decent but limited choice & consequence in dealing with quests

Don't recall much of that - any examples?

 

[Infinitron]

Don't recall much of that - any examples?

The most famous one is the Aldeth/Druids sidequest in the Cloakwood: http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgate/walkthrough/cloakwoodforestar2200.php

 

[Invictus]

Mmm kind of ironic how the most popular D&D setting is kind of the generic one while the more interesting settings like Dark Sun, Ravenloft or Dragonlance where almost erased from memory as the newer editions of D&D became more steamlined.
I mostly found the C&C in the Baldurs Gate games to be more of an added bonus besides the main storyline; you still get to do the very same linear path but you do get some sayso over the little details like going through the dungeon or storming the front gate...all in all I tend to prefer a good solid storyline in a well defined (is slightly generic) setting than a sandboxy game with seemingly better C&C over small quests but lacking in cohesive narrative.
Beeing Baalspawn or the Dragonborn should lead to an epic storyline about that first and foremost, then you can throw in the character missions, romance, and japanese schoolgirl outfit for my followers...

 

[sea]

snip

I fully agree (though cursor-waving is fixed by playing in the BG2 engine).

Ultimately I think Baldur's Gate is a far weaker game than Morrowind if you interpret as that type of game. But it does have other strengths (far, far better combat and character/party advancement), at least, which make up for some of those weaknesses quite a lot. That said, due to the differences in perspective, single character vs. party, 2D vs. 3D, etc. they obviously play very differently from one another so direct comparison is not quite warranted. I only meant that they are often fun and rewarding for similar reasons.

 

[Shadenuat]

Obviously, you didn't play Torment, which shows how deep and interesting concept of "substantial" alignment can be.

The half point of PS:T was deconstructing and fucking around with what it couldn't change about the nature of the setting to the point of making shit like alignment nearly meaningless.

That's one of the reasons it inspired such an undying love.

Most of the "deconstructed" stuff was already present in the setting, as developers borrowed not only visuals, factions and philosophy and monsters, but even characters from Planescape books. Alignment also was treated fairly well and interesting, and wasn't meaningless, as it affected dialogue and even items you could use.
The reason why it inspired love was because developers took best parts of setting (instead of "lol let's go to hell and kill the main devil") and used their own talent to tell their story in it, not because they somehow "unshackled" Planescape from it's poor source material. The source material in 2 edition was gold, probably the best D&D setting.

But I imagine it has to be pretty weird for people who are not familiar with pen and paper DnD and its modules. I played them since childhood so I it never strikes me as odd when playing IE games for the first time.

Alignments are cool, they are cool for the same reason virtues in Ultima games are cool. And in PnP they can be a good instrument. They make you think about morality and your character's actions. But they do not transit into video games well, and developers don't think about roleplay or morality in their games a lot. That's why I am eager to see what they do in Numenera with similar system.

As for BG1, it just didn't age well, that's it. It was first draft. BG2 may be more linear, but it improved on everything from BG1.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

Well the games were overrated the time it came out. Now they are just outdated overrated games. I'll admit BG2 was at least passable for today, but BG1...just no.

This.

BG1 is filled with boring encounters, annoying party members (imoen, that necromancer and his rogue bro who try to be oh so edgy) and generally a pants-on-head retarded plot that only Forgotten Realms can give birth too. Walking in woods, killing random encounters until next town and main quest progresses, rinse and repeat. Then you get some retarded BUT MC, YOU ARE YOUR BROTHER ARE THE DEMONS!!! and you never find the desire to play the game again. If you can make it past the beginning of the game and the sleep-inducing goblin infested mines (was it goblins? kobolds? some small jews anyway) and other opening sidequests.

BG2 suffers from some of the same afflictions, but it's much harder, quests are more interesting, you need to think out combat more (mage duels are really great there) and party management goes a step beyond simply customising Imoen as your waifu. Viconia being the only one with the potential to become a good cleric and Anoman (one of the best defensive fighters) hating her guts to the point where they start killing each other after some time means you are gonna have to juggle with alternatives such as rescuing Jaheria (god forbid), playing a cleric yourself (gay) or finding some other way to make sure you survive with everything cranked up to hardest. (could be other companions that I'm missing but I haven't played the game in years and it's hard to remember all of them or how they are called)

 

[Surf Solar]

Obviously, you didn't play Torment, which shows how deep and interesting concept of "substantial" alignment can be.

The half point of PS:T was deconstructing and fucking around with what it couldn't change about the nature of the setting to the point of making shit like alignment nearly meaningless.

That's one of the reasons it inspired such an undying love.

The entire concept of the planes and the factions in sigil are based around alignments.
And we know by now that you fancy your 3d exploration games. Yeah we get it.

 

[octavius]

BG1 is filled with boring encounters,

Most of which can be avoided. Just because there are six Diseased Gibberlings hanging around in the woods doesn't mean you have to kill them.
Install Sword Coast Strategems and play the fun encounters instead. The Bandit Camp, Red Wizards of Thay (if Edwin is not present) and the numerous encounters with adventurer/merc parties, especially with SCS installed is each more fun than most battles in other CRPGs.

 

[Malpercio]

I love BG2 with all my heart and it's probably my favorite rpg on par with Torment, but fuck, I just can't stand BG1. It's not a freacking RPG, it's a walking simulator!!! Most of the game is composed of giant-ass areas with NOTHING to see in them.

I started the game like 5 times, the farthest I got was reaching BG itself and realizing the game still was filled with boring-ass quests and areas.

 

[Shadenuat]

Viconia being the only one with the potential to become a good cleric

Noobs just like Vi because she gets Finger of Death faster than anyone and you can kill Firkraag with it, herpaderp.
Anomen and Aerie are both late bloomers but they are a lot better than Viconia, because one is a dual fighter who can get up to 5 proficiencies in weapons, and other is magical juggernaut who can buff and heal party and cast mage spells.
Jaheira doesn't count, she only has Harper's Call which emulates cleric's Raise Dead, but her spell selection is of a druid.

 

[Declinator]

The story is good?

I assume so. Why else would everyone praise these games as the second coming?

Why else? You think you need to be a storyfag to enjoy the BG games? As a combatfag I rate them higher than even the Gold Box games for the reasons I mentioned above.
I can also add things like party members being more than just numbers, with their banters, interjections and personal quests.

Party members being just numbers is a good thing in my books.

BG2 was a game that made me think that maybe combat in RPGs can never be good and Pool of Radiance was the one that showed me that it can.

 

[eremita]

Obviously, you didn't play Torment, which shows how deep and interesting concept of "substantial" alignment can be.

The half point of PS:T was deconstructing and fucking around with what it couldn't change about the nature of the setting to the point of making shit like alignment nearly meaningless.

That's one of the reasons it inspired such an undying love.

The nature of Planes and its beings is created by "forces" of law/chaos and good/evil/neutrality. Its in their nature - essence of their very existence, if you will. And yes, the whole idea is fucking infantile and rather simplistic but at same time it's really deep and magical, especially for telling stories... I mean it in the same way as Lermontov's "Demon" for example. Part of that is also questioning your very nature, being angry about what you really are and trying to fight it or change it. Torment plays with such themes but at same time stays true to the concept of alignment. That is fucking OBVIOUS.

 

[Silva]

Obviously, you didn't play Torment, which shows how deep and interesting concept of "substantial" alignment can be.

The half point of PS:T was deconstructing and fucking around with what it couldn't change about the nature of the setting to the point of making shit like alignment nearly meaningless.

That's one of the reasons it inspired such an undying love.

This.

Nowhere in Torment you see NPCs talking like that ("Sir, please could you be less evil ?" or "Attention all evil beings in the region! There is a bounty for the head of ...").

Its He-Man and Gummy Bear logic. In a game youre supposed to play a bearded axe-murderer.

 

[m_s0]

Viconia being the only one with the potential to become a good cleric

Noobs just like Vi because she gets Finger of Death faster than anyone and you can kill Firkraag with it, herpaderp.
Anomen and Aerie are both late bloomers but they are a lot better than Viconia, because one is a dual fighter who can get up to 5 proficiencies in weapons, and other is magical juggernaut who can buff and heal party and cast mage spells.
Jaheira doesn't count, she only has Harper's Call which emulates cleric's Raise Dead, but her spell selection is of a druid.

Anomen and Aerie are also irritating to the point where whether they're useful or not skill-wise becomes completely irrelevant.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Obviously, you didn't play Torment, which shows how deep and interesting concept of "substantial" alignment can be.

The half point of PS:T was deconstructing and fucking around with what it couldn't change about the nature of the setting to the point of making shit like alignment nearly meaningless.

That's one of the reasons it inspired such an undying love.

This.

Nowhere in Torment you see NPCs talking like that ("Sir, please could you be less evil ?" or "Attention all evil beings in the region! There is a bounty for the head of ...").

Its He-Man and Gummy Bear logic. In a game youre supposed to play a bearded axe-murderer.

Decent D&D writing never does that. Alignment is an abstraction, just like hit points, attacks per round and armour class. Don't think of it as characters viewing themselves as 'evil', 'lawful good' and so on - that's not an alignment issue, that's a retarded comprehension of alignment (it's just as silly for characters to go around saying 'hey, I have 28 hitpoints' or 'wow, this armour lifts my armour class by 3 points!').

It's an abstraction for a vast spectrum of personality types. Some people are more self-centred than others, some people respect authority more than others. If a character is particularly self-centred he might fall within the 'evil' category; if a character hates authority enough he might fall within the 'chaotic' category. No characters consciously apply those labels to each other in game, any more than they do hitpoints or armour class.

'Crap - I better wait before swinging again, I only have 1 attack per round.' 'Damn, I've been stabbed through the chest, severing 3 major arteries and will bleed out in seconds - but don't worry guys, I've still got 22 hitpoints, I'll be fine'.

Abstractions, how do they work?


(and if you think Torment is about playing a bearded axe-murderer, or killing everything/everyone you come across, you've clearly never played it. Stop this discussion and do so immediately - it really is that good)

 

[Silva]

(and if you think Torment is about playing a bearded axe-murderer, or killing everything/everyone you come across, you've clearly never played it. Stop this discussion and do so immediately - it really is that good)

It is Baldurs Gate 1 that had those quotes, not Torment. I finishied Torment a couple times and never noticed any character talking like that.

And while Im relieved to know its an abstraction, it seems the authors of Baldurs Gate didnt interpret it this way.

 

[Volourn]

" I actually preferred the BG1 because it allowed the player to explore the entire map, rather than have new hotspots added to the map."

Huh? BG1 had entire maps locked out until certain story plot points were completed. LMFAO