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So I'm playing JA2...

TNO

Augur
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
452
Location
UK
And I'm getting screwed over.

I usually good at strategy games - I can beat SMAC, X-COM, etc. on highest difficulty on Ironman, but playing JA 1.13 on expert seems to be getting me screwed.

I can't seem to establish a beach-head. I can nail the first fight at Omerta, but after that I rapidly (next fight or the one after) am up against a dozen or so army grunts. I can win these fights, but I don't have any real gear advantage so I usually take a few hits. After that I either camp to doctor and repair in Omerta and then face another load of dudes and get gradually whittled down, or make a charge to Drassen and also get in trouble. And all of this is BEFORE Dedrianna apparently sends a HUGE amount of troops to retake Drassen.

So, am I missing something here? Any pro-tips?
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
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Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Retreat. Be cheap with the doorways. Go at night.

I once played with a solo night-ops psycho knife-thrower.

Good times. The back of the head is the most vulnerable spot.

Only possible by abusing the turn-based/real-time toggle of course.
 
Joined
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Messages
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TNO said:
And I'm getting screwed over.

I usually good at strategy games - I can beat SMAC, X-COM, etc. on highest difficulty on Ironman, but playing JA 1.13 on expert seems to be getting me screwed.

I can't seem to establish a beach-head. I can nail the first fight at Omerta, but after that I rapidly (next fight or the one after) am up against a dozen or so army grunts. I can win these fights, but I don't have any real gear advantage so I usually take a few hits. After that I either camp to doctor and repair in Omerta and then face another load of dudes and get gradually whittled down, or make a charge to Drassen and also get in trouble. And all of this is BEFORE Dedrianna apparently sends a HUGE amount of troops to retake Drassen.

So, am I missing something here? Any pro-tips?

I assume the fight that gives you problems is the one with the patrol on the road to Drassen. My tip is to avoid the road and move directly east from Omerta two sectors, then drop down one. That gets you to the farm and right next to a building that you can climb on to. Sometimes the patrol will be there, sometimes they will arrive soon - in any case, get on the building, go prone and shoot anybody approaching the building. You should be able to take them out with minimal damage. Then wait for night (always attack at night) and go for Drassen. You can turn the counterattack off in the config file (but you will have to restart the game for it to take effect). If you don't, I heard one tactic is to take the airport and mine and leave the center sector for latter, when you have better equipment - the attack happens only when you take all 3 sectors.
 

janjetina

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Mar 28, 2008
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Torment: Tides of Numenera
I'm playing JA 2 1.13 on Expert mode right now and the Enemy throws huge squads at me in the very beginning. I tend to retreat from a non-city combat, as 20 enemy soldiers on my 6 starting mercenaries is an impossible battle. Only taking the roofs gives me tactical advantage that I need to win the battle in the face of a huge disadvantage in numbers.

Attack the Drassen Mine from the east and climb the roofs ASAP. Hopefully your IMP merc is a good shot. After you win that battle, train the militia and invade other Drassen sectors with their help. Always go for the roofs.
 

GarfunkeL

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Avoid battles on your way to Drassen, attack from north and just roll south. Fight during night so the poor range of your starting weapons doesn't hamper you too much. Get Ira from Omerta to round out your team, she's poor shooter but she has medikits and is a decent nurse.
 

ady5

Educated
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
73
The night is your friend on expert. Also yeah, avoid roads until you get the vehicles. I like nightfighting in drassen, lots of one level houses from which you can drop on their backs. Thing is, in 1.13, the AI tends to abuse the roofs also, so then a stealthy IMP is a saviour. Abuse the RT/TB system as much as you can, getting interrupts while you approach a red shirt, lure them with a distant merc firing a shot to turn their backs on you, and get them from behind. Small guns have been GREATLY improved since the vanilla version, so you can still do some real damage even with the starting gear, as long as you have ammo. But even after leaving Omerta you should have at least 2 types of guns for every merc.

In the beginning, it's better to have fewer mercs that have great potential. i usualy start with 3 guys, my IMP and 2 mercs, and i get Ira right after that. It's more than enough on expert if you play at night.

The problem i always get is the fucking ambushes in daylight while moving from Omerta to Drassen, by border humping the north edge. Fighting in the bushes with 4 mercs with pistols against 12-15 poor excuses for a soldier but armed with SMGs and rifles is nerve wrecking to say the least.

That reminds me. The 1.13 SVN just got updated. I should give it another try.
 

TNO

Augur
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My IMP is a nightop/stealther, with some pretty dope gear (got a lucky NVG2, MP5/10 with silencer and laser sight, wood camo), so I'll use the night stuff.

Maybe it is 1.13 being wierd, but my first fight wasn't on the road to drassen.

My initial 'cunning plan' was to grab all the cheap mercs (had 6 at the drop off, but only 5k in the bank) and then equip them with battlefield pick up - I did turn drop all on, but meh, seems reasonable.

So I had my team waiting around while steroid repaired their phat loot when around 12-20 troops decided to drop in on a9 Omerta. I've finally worked out a way of winning this fight without anyone dying, but lots of my guys got injured - while they were healing, another five or so guys dropped in to a9 again, and I killed them with my two remaining fit and healthy mercs. NOW I'm getting engaged on the road to drassen.


Anyway, tl;dr:

1) Was it not clever to pick loads of mercs like I did? How much of my 30k can I spend on week 1 without going bankrupt?

2) Should I have stayed to protect omerta or just run to take Drassen ASAP?

3) Where the hell can I buy medkits and toolkits? Do anyone of the MERC dudes carry them?

4) Do the fights scale with either level or number of mercenaries?

5) Whats this RT/TB abuse? Have I missed the button to toggle it? Whenever I get RT in the middle of a fight I find it an absolute pain to get my guys somewhere safe fast enough.

Great game though. My huge fight in Omerta was pretty cool - when I tried to hunker down in a building they surrounded me and whittled me down, but playing aggressively and running around them while a single guy got their attention worked wonders.
 

MetalCraze

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Urkanistan
Attack only at night at the beginning or if you are absolutely sure you can handle enemies at the daytime. And use cover. Always use cover, always have some merc scanning your six. It's the alpha and omega of what you will always do in combat. The game can be pretty hard up until you start training militia after which you will have some help.

Everyone was getting raped in JA2 when they started playing - it's normal, when you will understand better little nuances it will be much much easier. I also had my ass handed to me during all those first 3 times when I was trying to start with JA2 (without 1.13 even which has better AI). But then everything was coming naturally.

Some answers to your questions:
- get 2 good mercs (+ your IMP of course) instead of 5 rookies. Hire them for a week. You will need your mercs to kill, not constantly miss the target.

- you will be able to buy stuff when you will capture the northern-most Drassen sector - get some medkits, ammo, guns with any money you will have left and proceed to the southern-most sector where you will capture the mine. After that it will be much easier for you (unless if you will get lucky like me and your mine will run out of resources within the first week - it's being set randomly when you start a game)

- fights do not scale, this is not some fucking Oblivion. Deidranna has the preset number of soldiers depending on the difficulty level in the beginning (400 total at Expert) which she sends at you in any numbers she wants. She hires new ones of course but at a slow rate (which btw leads to one of the weaknesses of the later game, but that's another story).

- RT/TB works the same way as in Fallout - you can force the game into TB mode any time you wish.
 
Joined
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TNO said:
1) Was it not clever to pick loads of mercs like I did? How much of my 30k can I spend on week 1 without going bankrupt?
I usually take only two cheap but promising (high wisdom, good traits) MERCs at the start. With my IMP (you did take high wisdom, right?) and Ira I don't have any problems in taking Drassen. With a full team of MERCs on 1 week contract you could have cash problems very soon. If you have drop all on you can sell useless equipment to the locals for quick cash, so that will help. But even so, get that mine right away.

2) Should I have stayed to protect omerta or just run to take Drassen ASAP?
Forget Omerta. You can't have militia there and the troops will never really retake it. You don't need to defend it. Take Drassen ASAP (or go west and take that town first).

3) Where the hell can I buy medkits and toolkits? Do anyone of the MERC dudes carry them?
Mercs with med skill have med-kits and those with mechanic have toolkits. Ira also comes with a med-kit. You can buy more once you take the airport and enemies can drop them too (but they probably won't this early in the game).

4) Do the fights scale with either level or number of mercenaries?
Not that I noticed.

5) Whats this RT/TB abuse? Have I missed the button to toggle it? Whenever I get RT in the middle of a fight I find it an absolute pain to get my guys somewhere safe fast enough.
First time I heard about this too. And I thought I knew this game well.
 

GarfunkeL

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It's not really 'abuse', because unlike Fallout, in JA2 enemies can still interrupt you during your turn.

And as said, there's no point in defending Omerta. I suggest you get 6 mercs because you will soon get Drassen mine running and you can sell all the stuff that enemies drop that you won't need, just ALT+click on them in sector inventory, if you have that feature turned on in 1.13. With 6 or more mercs you can easily leave two behind in Drassen to train militia while you go for SAM-site and Chitzena with the better combatants.

Many RL-tactics work in JA2, which makes it so awesome. You can pin your enemy down with one fireteam/combat pairing and use other to flank them. You can leave a sniper behind and use the other mercs as her spotters (<3 Scope & Raven) because snipers do not need to see their targets with Mk.1 Eye-ball (when snipers start aiming, you often see the probability jump suddenly from 0% to 90% when they zoom the scope in and acquire the target - remember that snap and quick shots are usually fired with only iron or battle sights). You can lay down a smoke screen to cover your movement. You can lure the enemy into an encirclement, by using several well camouflaged mercs on prone next to bushes while the one with good reflexes (high lvl, agi, dex so not to be interrupted) makes your presence known - this works especially well during night. You can advance using the chain-link fire & movement style, where your mercs are paired up. Every A of a pair shoots few shots towards the enemy to keep their heads down while every B of a pair moves forward. Then reverse their roles so A can catch-up with B. This tactic is especially useful when you still have to rely on pistols, shotguns and smg's, which lack effective range.

Oh man, the urge to replay JA2 (once again) rising...
 
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GarfunkeL said:
Oh man, the urge to replay JA2 (once again) rising...
Tell me about it, I just reinstalled it. Which reminds me - TNO, did you use the latest 1.13 patch? The one on the download page is quite old.
 

MetalCraze

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Urkanistan
Garfunkel said:
I suggest you get 6 mercs
You are wrong.
6 mercs that will barely kill 10 enemies before they all die vs. 3 mercs that will rape the shit out of 40 enemies and then you get the mine: which is better and why?

And you can leave Ira at Drassen which will be more than enough at first.
 

ShavenApe

Novice
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Messages
55
Hah! Great minds think alike! I too am just now replaying JA2. This is my first time on the 1.13 patch though and it is quite different from what I remember. I'm playing on expert with very good selection at Bobby-Ray's, save anytime, scifi on and vanilla (old-school) inventory.

I went with 4 initial mercs. My IMP, Buns, Igor & Blood (could only afford Blood for 1 week). My IMP is high agility, mech, marksman, health & decent strength with both special abilities spent on sniper. In hind-sight, I should have gone either both lockpick, or maybe lock & electronics.

My initial strategy was to head straight for Drassen, avoiding any encounters I could by either avoiding the roads or trying to sneak past 'em. I still had to fight 1 or 2, but got to Drassen Mine relatively unscathed. I took that by using the roofs and doing a couple of pin-->outflank manoeuvres. I then used my new income to train up some militia and then repeated the process on the middle section. In hind-sight, I should have taken only the mine & airport, but hey. I didn't take the last Drassen sector as that would have triggered the massive backlash and I wasn't ready yet.

Instead I took off and repeated my previous tactics on Chitzena (far west town), taking the mine first, training militia. This time I used the 20 blue militia to help in the invasion of the top sector (man, this is an awesome addition to the 1.13 version), as I only had a couple of longer-range rifles and the soldiers hiding behind the middle wall can sometimes cause me issues. Trained the remaining militia, fought off a small counter-attack and headed back to Drassen with the two American tourists in tow. I left Ira behind to finish the militia training.

Landed back in Drassen, made sure the militia on the two lower sectors that I owned were up to scratch and then took the airport. This is when it got tricky. Taking Drassen triggers off the queen sending a good 60-odd soldiers (including quite a few elites) to re-take the mine. There's no point in trying to train more militia while they are en-route as they arrive too quickly.

Instead, I move all of my militia to the top two sectors, leaving the mine empty. The soldiers move in and I attempt to retake it with the help of my best militia. I do it this way (instead of defending the mine) because otherwise my militia are spread all around the map and basically get picked off one by one. As soon as I took the airport I went straight to bobby-ray's (which became available at this point) and ordered up 3 high-powered sniper-rifles and a FN-FAL with the money I've produced from the mines thus-far. I wait until my new toys arrive, equip them and head on down to the party...

And run into a brick wall. My party can now pick off enemies in one shot from the rooftops quite well, but my 20 non-elite militia are rubbish and can't survive long enough against 60 combatants (I don't expect much, do I?), so pretty soon I'm dodging burst fire from all sides & pinned down.

I'd read lots of accounts of people hiding in toilets, etc, but I wanted to win this "straight-up". I tried several times before I decided to be a bit more devious. I noticed on the map that not all of the 60-odd enemies would fit in the mine sector itself. Only 20 are allowed per sector so the rest were camped east, west and south of town. If I try to attack the mine they are called on as reinforcements and arrive part-way through the battle, eventually swamping my position.

Instead I took my 4 mercs and attacked the enemies camped to the east and west alone. Each camp held about 15 individuals, but with my superior sniping equipment they were a cake-walk compared to the mine. I took each camp out, taking time to rest & re-arm between sorties and this reduced the total enemies by ~30. At this point I marched back into Drassen Mine like before and had little trouble painting the town red.

Besides taking a SAM site to the east, getting some more stuff-that-goes-bang & a new merc, that's pretty much where I'm up to now. Alma, here I come! :D
 

GarfunkeL

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MetalCraze said:
Garfunkel said:
I suggest you get 6 mercs
You are wrong.
6 mercs that will barely kill 10 enemies before they all die vs. 3 mercs that will rape the shit out of 40 enemies and then you get the mine: which is better and why?

Ah, but if you build him/her correctly, your IMP-merc alone is capable of clearing out Drassen during night, with little back-up from other mercs (Bull, Igor, Buns, etc). So you don't have to fools around with the M.E.R.C losers in a firefight. And after that, you are held back by the lack of militia at the area. Nothing more annoying than having to recapture town sectors.

But sure, both styles are viable. Another of the great things about JA2.
 

Burning Bridges

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I think it is normal if you have a hard time in the beginning, the game is Hard!

In my first playthrough I just tried to stay behind cover and shoot it out until I had won
but that's not a good strategy.

-you should move a lot, but you need to make your mercs light (don't carry backpacks during battles) that way they will move much faster
-press 'R' in order to make your merc run (often forgotten!)
-use two teams if you have enough mercs
-attack from different directions
-don't use up your APs all the time, instead hide and make you mercs look in the direction of the enemy, that way you get interrupts (during an interrupt you basically have two subsequent turns, enough to kill the enemy most of the time)

protip: in the beginning you can have a surprisingly easy time if you use hollow point and glaser ammo, of course you need to get some!
 

ady5

Educated
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
73
A couple of things.

Work your way out in the .ini. The v.1.13 has a nice .ini editor. It is your friend. Treat it likewise.

I usualy set Deidrana pool size at 1500. I do not want to go to unlimited like on insane, but i do want some challenge, especially since roaming militia is ON.

You can abuse the RT/TB in two ways: the normal way, which i find illogical, in which you get your stealth guy to sneak around aimlessly until you get into TB mode by finding an enemy, then using another merc to draw the attention while your stealth guy sneaks in the back and puts two silenced rounds in the idiot AI's head.
The other system which i find more realistic, switches the RT/TB system according to the awarness of the enemy. Meaning, if you have a high stealth guy, you can sneak in real time EVEN AFTER you saw the baddie, until you decide to switch or to he sees you. Ofc, you can't do that with a normal mofo merc, you'll get interrupted, or worse. And i bet the grey shirts will not be impressed by this system. You can find the option to use this in the .ini, under allow_real_time_sneak

Also, activate suppression fire if you're tinkering with the ini, just for the sake of it. It's nice to see the AI using bursts to force you go prone.

Tried omerta now, and i did it in 10 minutes, and i even box thieved a guy. Only like 7 baddies though. Isn't that a kinda low body count for expert? Dunno, i didn't played it in a while, and i forgot. But i cheated a bit, i set the arrival time at 6 instead of 7, so i fought in night time. Evil, what can i say.

One tip that i always do at the begining of a battle is select all mercs, press Z then C. You'll bring them in stealth and crouch mode. This way, you can deploy faster, without being spotted.
 

Thor Kaufman

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Initiative and mercenary experience level are the most important in JA2.

Kill the enemy before they can attack you by sneaking/camouflage and using cover and by killing from a distance using (sniper) rifles. For close combat/houses you either need experienced mercs that won't get interrupted or a lot of explosives.
If you like fighting at night use throwing knives and crowbars for close combat as well as silenced guns.

Or just shoot around randomly and let the enemy come to you.
 

TNO

Augur
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Took the western town and now Drassen.

Is there a non-cheaty way of beating off the counter-attack? 80 or so militia drop in to the mines and attack. I have 40 militia, but militia are useless and die. I holed up at the dentists and fired bursts into the the head of them as they walked in one by one.

So, is there a vaguely 'realistic' way of fending off 80 elites or so if you try and take Drassen early (or first)

The game is epic, btw.
 

ShavenApe

Novice
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Messages
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TNO said:
Took the western town and now Drassen.

Is there a non-cheaty way of beating off the counter-attack? 80 or so militia drop in to the mines and attack. I have 40 militia, but militia are useless and die. I holed up at the dentists and fired bursts into the the head of them as they walked in one by one.

So, is there a vaguely 'realistic' way of fending off 80 elites or so if you try and take Drassen early (or first)

The game is epic, btw.
See my post above (let the enemy take the mine, take out the supporting camps to even the odds, then re-take the mine) for one method. I don't know if that would be considered "cheaty" or not. I guess it kinda exploits a limitation in the game that only 20 soldiers can be in a sector at a time. I don't know if this limitation is realistic or not. One could argue that the town couldn't support more than that per sector, but then a supply-train could fix that.

I don't think there is a "realistic" way of beating off the initial invasion. There are just too many enemies. The "hole up in a building and pop anyone who comes near" is definitely not realistic as after the first few casualties the enemy would just be using tear-gas/frag grenades or just setting the structure on fire. I guess there are historical examples of such victories, but I think these would be the outliers.

And yes, I third that this game is truly awesome.
 

Burning Bridges

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to the OP: you can disable the counterattack with the INI Editor (STRATEGIC_EVENT_SEND_TROOPS_TO_DRASSEN)

Mighty Mouse said:
You guys are all playing ironman on 1.13 right?

Which is better and why?
 

ady5

Educated
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
73
Activate SLOW_WEAPON_PROGRESSION. That way those elites won't give you the uber weapons so early on, after you defeat the drassen counterattack. Btw, how hard can this game be when all you have to do is to manage your fights to happen at night?
But yeah, this game is hard to not love. Even after more than 10 years, i like every little animation, every bit out of it
 

Burning Bridges

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ady5 said:
Activate SLOW_WEAPON_PROGRESSION.

definitely recommended, though certainly the enemy-drop-all faction wiill cringe

In fact before a new game, open the ini editor and read the description of every entry, instead of bitching about the game later. It surprises me how many ppl are complaining about drassen as if they haven't even heard of the ini.
 

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