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Some thoughts on good and evil

Seven

Erudite
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Messages
1,728
Location
North of the Glow
Visceris said:
Seven said:
ever see those, "there are only 24 stories," lists? they is bull... but if you reduce far 'nuff you will always end up with the same basic plot structure of good stories. you got a character with a goal who must overcome obstacles real, or imagined, and in so doing arrives at some artistically satisfying conclusion be it victory or failure... or something in between.

That's not a reduction, it's a simplification; simplfications suck ass. It's like saying all humans are human.

Well, all humans are human. For the most part physiologically speaking there is no significant difference between one human to another beyond gender. If ou are talking culturally then there are significant differences, but culture does not equal race for it is simply an expression of how a particular society evolved.

And yes, simplifications suck ass.

No shit? All humans are human? WOW, how illuminating. Oh wait isn't that what I freakin said?

You see that's where the simplification part come in, simplifications often entail the obvious. So yes, I know all humans are humans, that was my point, perhaps you missed that (Although, that would mean that you missed something obvious which does not bode well for your implied prowess in the art of deduction).
 

Visceris

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
379
You know something, Seven, maybe you need to lay off the caffiene and not take things so seriously. I do love your response though. HILARIOUS STUFF! :P

I was just saying that I agree with you in a long convoluted way. :D Man, I almost missed this place. :shock:
 

Kamaz

Pahris Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
1,043
Location
The Glorious Ancient City of Loja
I dont think Hitler or Stalin thought they were doing good things. More likely they had tasted the taste of power and realised someone could take if from them. And jews..I just think Hitler was clever enough, he wanted people toi have somebody to blame for all, to enrage them, to express their hate and so on. Jews suited brilliantly.

So, what I wanted to say - I guess, there is not such good or evil persons. They dont even think of themselves as good or evil. There are crazy people, there are enraged people, there are really pissed off people, there are very racional people and all of them can do bad or good things. They would never refer to themselves as "good" or "bad" truly in their hearts. Most evil governors of the past were just very racional people that used everything to get power, wealth and make world remember them. Thats all.

If speaking of games..well, of course, noone makes you develop very deep, realistic games..there is enough shit in reality [You know how they say - LIFE is game with great graphics but totally disgusting gameplay.] Though, I just wouldnt play any game I knew that in the end, the structure will be "good and evil". Maybe that is why I have none of BW games completed - I got bored. So this epic thing is totally un-attractive if I know all of the game's structure. It is not a question - is it good or bad approach to game design, you can allways make great game about absolutely good and absolutely evil characters, no, the thing is about story - how well it is done. And, if RPG, how much player can change. ANd if I know BW use to make epic good/evil confrontation games [they just admitted that] and if I know, I canot influence a thing [that would question that black./white position], then, wtf? I have totally no interest in playing any BW game since now. Having read their thoughts of matter, I realise, all their games are crap for kids. I, as a customer, am lost to BW since they admitted they make brainless shit. Thank you very much, your PR does miracles!
 

Stark

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
770
I much prefer a reputation system over a simple slider bar (ala Kotor) that shows your leaning from dark side to light side and anywhere in between. the single slider system forces every action to be decided by developer as "good" and "bad", and that sucks in my opinion.

now a repuation system ala Fallout, where you just do some action, earn some reputation that can win some friends and/or lose some respect from others... none of the repuation tags earned are labelled as "good" or "evil".

it's much more flexible, and bypass the problem raised by "good vs evil" altogether.
 

DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
6,600
Stark said:
now a repuation system ala Fallout, where you just do some action, earn some reputation that can win some friends and/or lose some respect from others... none of the repuation tags earned are labelled as "good" or "evil".

Good idea - I really liked this aspect of FO. It's a pity that Jefferson never made it of the ground because it seemed to have an interestingly similar approach too.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
The LS/DS slider in KotOR is also stupid because the Force, in the Star Wars mythos, in presented in morally ambiguous terms in the first place. That is, the danger of falling to the Dark Side is prevalent even for those who seek to use the Force for order and for good, when they rely on it too heavily and pridefully. The Dark Side isn't all about mugging people for their lunch money.

If this guy thinks KotOR did a good job with the good/evil mechanic, he definitely needs to be kept in QA.
 

AlanC9

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 12, 2003
Messages
505
suibhne said:
The LS/DS slider in KotOR is also stupid because the Force, in the Star Wars mythos, in presented in morally ambiguous terms in the first place. That is, the danger of falling to the Dark Side is prevalent even for those who seek to use the Force for order and for good, when they rely on it too heavily and pridefully. The Dark Side isn't all about mugging people for their lunch money.

If this guy thinks KotOR did a good job with the good/evil mechanic, he definitely needs to be kept in QA.

Depends on your metric for a "good job." Sure, it's an oversimplification of a moral concept that's already simplistic. But it's transparent to the players, and doesn't generate all that many arguments. (The big exception is the Bendak Starkiller DS points; it's not quite clear why you get DS points for executing someone just because you're doing it during a gladiatorial contest). Edit: no wonder a QA guy likes it; those are exactly the features QA would want.

If Bio was really trying to do the Force properly, not only shouldn't the player be able to know his precise LS/DS status, but he should actually lose options as his character changes alignment status, and gain new ones. Lucas' concept of the Force isn't really compatible with unfettered free will. I'm not sure this would have gone over too well with either casual gamers or a lot of role-players.

@ Kamaz: that's a common misconception about Hitler. The point of eliminating the Jews wasn't to hold political power; the point of gaining political power was to eliminate the Jews. (Not necessarily exterminate; that came later.) Hitler was a lot more serious about his ideology than Stalin, who really was all about keeping power any way he could. But I don't think either of them would have thought of "good" and "evil" as being useful concepts.

As for Mr. Woo's comments: the amusing thing is that Bio's never taken alignment seriously, even in their D&D games. AFAIK alignment's checked maybe twice in the whole BG series. They rely on reputation for most everything.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
"The big exception is the Bendak Starkiller DS points; it's not quite clear why you get DS points for executing someone just because you're doing it during a gladiatorial contest"

You don't get DS points for killing him; youg et dark side points for even participating in a 'death match'. I guess the Light Side disapproves of such deadly gladitor games. Kinda makes sense since life is supposedly precious to the Force.

P.S. This thread isn't news.
 

errorcode

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
622
Location
Seattle
the good versus evil thing is a bane in the game industry. I remember reding peter molynuexs thoughts on it for Fable and wanting to puke. Same type of shit as this idiots spouting off about.

Players can accept any character positon, as long as it's given context. Max Payne was easy to get behind because he was "the wronged man seeking vengence". Fallout was loved bcause it gave situations that allowed players to be good for a reason or evil for a reason. The games that fail on the good/evil factor is when they make good a moral absolute and make evil for just evils sake.
 

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