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[Vault Dweller]

Obsidian hasn't been Obsidian for a decade. People need to realize this.

Actually Obsidian has always been Obsidian. It has never been Troika or even BIS, that is what people need to realize...
In b4 Ironically Ignorant: "No, no, no! In my imaginary world..."

That depends on how you define a company. It IS a fact that the majority of the big people from Post Fallout Black Isle ARE or WERE at Obsidian.


Also theres really not much difference between these two companies. (Except they were allowed to make (at least) RTWP rpgs)

Because let's be honest.

Fallout 2
Planescape Torment
Icewind Dale Series

ALL of those games were incredibly flawed too.

Not in Shannow's imaginary world.

First, the IWD games weren't considered good when they were released, because they were compared to games like Fallout and Planescape: Torment. They are rated higher now because they are compared to all the shit that's been released since then.

Second, a company isn't defined by people, but by its product(s), corporate goals, financial situation, market shares, etc.

BIS was a division of a publisher/developer. Obsidian is a small company that's not strong enough to stand on its own and "make games they want to play". As I said before, it is telling that their best work are the expansion packs (MotB, Dead Money), the only area where they are allowed to do what they want to do.

Interplay could afford to green-light (and publish) a game like Fallout. Or a game like PST. Obsidian can't. That's the difference.

 

[Shannow]

Different companies? check
Around 135 people working for Obsidian (according to wikipedia). At least 5 of them used to work for BIS at some stage.
Granted, they're high up in the hierachy, but:
Products differ vastly? check

So when was Obsidian exactly not the Obsidian Obsidian supposedly is today? And when was Obsidian ever a continuity of BIS in any way that matters?

@Volrath: Really? That clumsy one-liner was all you got? Should have gone into detail and invented quotes that "prove" that I consider all BIS games to be without fault. It'd still have been pathetically transparent, but at least we could have said: "Yeah, he failed miserably, but at least he put some effort into it."

@IronicallyIgnorant: I'd ask you how BIS' games having flaws (and our definition of the word "incredibly" must differ vastly) generates any relevant continuity between the two companies. Ooh, *insert random dev studio* made flawed games. Must be the same company as Obsidian, well, at least before Obsidian changed...
But I won't do that. Talking to you about OE is like talking to Volly about BiowEAranything, an effort in futility.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Fuck, I keep forgetting you mean BIS as in "Black Isle Studios", and asking myself "what the fuck does Bohemia Interactive Studios have to do with anything???"

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Interplay could afford to green-light (and publish) a game like Fallout. Or a game like PST. Obsidian can't. That's the difference.

Yes. Absolutly. Thats also why I wrote "Except they were allowed back then to.....". Agree fully

Still, I disagree on it not beeing a "spiritual" continuation of that company....


For a simple reason. ALL of the points you mentioned:

product(s), corporate goals, financial situation, market shares,

can be subject to DRASTIC change. For example. A theoretical were Black Isle *forsomereason* had the ability to split up from Interplay and would have continuned on a private path.

They would be in the exact same "or similiar" situation as the Obsidian of now despite beeing called "Black Isle"



Considering that I FULLY AGREE with you (that Obsidian isn't a continuation of Black Isle) if we also assume that

A: In my theoretical example Black Isle would be considered a different company the MOMENT they went private.

B: Bioware would be considerd a different company the MOMENT they joined EA.


If so, yes I'm totally ok and agree with everything you say.[/b]

 

[Vault Dweller]

For a simple reason. ALL of the points you mentioned:

product(s), corporate goals, financial situation, market shares,

can be subject to DRASTIC change.

Certainly can. In fact, they are drastically changing now, and not in a good way. From NWN2 and KOTOR2 to Alpha Protocol, Dungeon Siege 3, coding for Wheel of Time, a cartoon RPG, and two canceled projects.

For example. A theoretical were Black Isle *forsomereason* had the ability to split up from Interplay and would have continuned on a private path.

They would be in the exact same "or similiar" situation as the Obsidian of now despite beeing called "Black Isle"

Certainly.

A: In my theoretical example Black Isle would be considered a different company the MOMENT they went private.

B: Bioware would be considerd a different company the MOMENT they joined EA.

Bioware is definitely a different company now, but I wouldn't say that these transformations take place the moment they join or leave or start over. It takes time for the changes to take effect and a lot depends on what the company does and how they do it.

Obsidian started with two amazing opportunities, two biggest fucking licenses (compared to which South Park is nothing). It's a chance that comes once in a lifetime. Feargus is a fucking god when it comes to getting great contracts, but he can't manage and make something out of them.

Had they done a better job with NWN2 (which was horribly mismanaged and lost the lead designer midway) and KOTOR2, which was barely finished, things could have been different and, perhaps, Obsidian would have become the ol' BIS, but now we shall never know.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Obsidian started with two amazing opportunities, two biggest fucking licenses (compared to which South Park is nothing).

Wait, what? South Park is most certainly bigger than Neverwinter Nights and its Creators only gained Popularity over the years (through various succesful projects). It still draws ~2.5-3Mil. a week US only.

Also, I'd seriously argue that either F:NV or Dungeon Siege III were mismanaged. They certainly have their baggage now as a company with their previous titles but apart from that they are in a much better "controlled" situation now especially from a buisness standpoint.


I would go as far as to say they shouldn't have tackled KOTOR2 and NWN2 in the first place.

They were a freshly founded studio, working out of Feargus Basement (According to that new Industrygamers article) with no previous experience on how to work in the private sector (Well, except Chris Jones but then again Troika) Getting two way too big contracts without having set up a working base was a recipe for failure.

Asking for smaller, mid-budget projects would have allowed them to slowly build themselves up and still keeping face with gamers and publishers. (If I remember right Feargus (or some other dev) did once say in a interview that one of their main problems was that they grew and expanded way too fast due to the big contracts)

Same thing with SEGA really. That was a "dumb" move too. 2 Projects out of nowhere one an original IP and one a licensed (big) IP. Alpha Protocol is probably still Obsidians worst demonstration regarding Mismanagment (Yes, bigger than NWN2) and Aliens got cancelled.

I actually think Aliens got mainly cancelled because SEGA realized that the whole thing with Obsidian wasn't working at all and just wanted to get away from them. AP probably already cost too much at that point to cancel it which is why they still released it.

(Also why they showed a non-interest into AP after it. Seriously, they waited several months before releasing a submitted patch which didn't even have its own installer!!!)




On the other hand we have Obsidians relationship with Bethesda and Square Enix which went basically great and there have been no real bad words on both of these development processes.

Thats why I personally think that Obs is in a better situation than before.


EXCEPT

Since they have grown so much (They are as big as EPIC Games (Without subcompanies)) ,and don't seem like to fire people, they are even more dependant on working on multiple projects to stay alive.

 

[sigma1932]

So, basically, it's a JRPG... more specifically a more cartoony version of Super Mario RPG mixed with the equipment customization system of FF7.

I get that the concept is supposed to be kooky and funny and... well... south-parky, but I'm thinkin' I'll prolly pass just on the JRPG style gameplay.

I hope the people who do play it have fun, and if nothing else, maybe it'll show people how much better turn-based combat is than point the crosshair and spam the attack button style of combat we've been getting lately is.

As a sidenote, I greatly appreciate that Obsidian is telling us what the game is right from the start instead of trying to label it something it's not in order to get moar muneez like some other companies have.

Buggy games or not, no one will ever accuse Obsidian as being a shady bunch of greedy pricks.

 

[Roguey]

Had they done a better job with NWN2 (which was horribly mismanaged and lost the lead designer midway) and KOTOR2, which was barely finished, things could have been different and, perhaps, Obsidian would have become the ol' BIS, but now we shall never know.

Those were both commercially and critically successful products. Do you really think it would have made much of a difference if they were slightly more successful than they were?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't know what "both commercially and critically successful products" mean exactly, but I do know that in this sequel-obsessed world neither Atari nor Lucas Arts were interested in a third game. That's gotta tell you something.

 

[Jaesun]

I don't know what "both commercially and critically successful products" mean exactly, but I do know that in this sequel-obsessed world neither Atari nor Lucas Arts were interested in a third game. That's gotta tell you something.

Well for one, Lucas Arts wasn't interested in a KotOR III because of the shitty new MMO they are making which is to replace the series entirely (based on their comments about what the game is).

Atari was in a lawsuit on the D&D licence, in which they lost it, so them working on a NWN 3 wouldn't likely be possible. Instead they made their last D&D game as a shitty facebook game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

For one, Lucas Art was so interested in KOTOR 3 that they started developing the game internally, did the story, "designed most of the environments/worlds, and many of the quests, characters, and items." They weren't happy with it, so they canceled the game and focused on MMO.

As for the DnD license, NWN2 was released in 2006, while Atari lost the license only in 2011, which doesn't affect games in development (Neverwinter, Daggerdale, and that shitty Facebook game). In other words, if Atari wanted NWN3, they could have green-lighted it in 2006-2008 and would have been able to release it without any issues.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

Considering LA has all but washed its hands of swtor I wouldn't be surprised if kotor3 is back in the cooker now.

 

[bhlaab]

I actually think Aliens got mainly cancelled because SEGA realized that the whole thing with Obsidian wasn't working at all and just wanted to get away from them. AP probably already cost too much at that point to cancel it which is why they still released it.

If you remember, the Aliens: Colonel Marines FPS Gearbox was making was put on indefinite hold at the exact same time.

That game's back on now but it seems to me that the problem was on Sega's end and they thought cleaning out their lineup of Alien licensed games would fix it.

 

[Jaesun]

For one, Lucas Art was so interested in KOTOR 3 that they started developing the game internally, did the story, "designed most of the environments/worlds, and many of the quests, characters, and items." They weren't happy with it, so they canceled the game and focused on MMO.

Fair enough, I was unaware of that fact. However they more than likely saw more profitability in shutting down SWG and doing a new MMO. Profit wise, it makes WAY more sense.

As for the DnD license, NWN2 was released in 2006, while Atari lost the license only in 2011, which doesn't affect games in development (Neverwinter, Daggerdale, and that shitty Facebook game). In other words, if Atari wanted NWN3, they could have green-lighted it in 2006-2008 and would have been able to release it without any issues.

This is indeed entirely true, However Atari never seemed too be to "smart" about projects they want developed. Nor use any long term strategy on their companies growth.

 

[bhlaab]

I think the D&D license is completely irrelevent to video games nowadays.

 

[Jaesun]

I think the D&D license is completely irrelevent to video games nowadays.

Pretty much. As long as you can press A and do AWESOME, it sells. Fuck this skill and character development shit. It's too confusing!

 

[Data4]

The pale basement virgin comment was uncalled for

ESPECIALLY considering the commenter is some Amish chinstrap sporting dork. Pot meet kettle.

Chicks really, really hate chinstrap beards.

 

[Roguey]

I don't know what "both commercially and critically successful products" mean exactly, but I do know that in this sequel-obsessed world neither Atari nor Lucas Arts were interested in a third game. That's gotta tell you something.

Obsidian employees like Nathaniel Chapman says it means "no publisher or developer is going to be excited to develop the kind of game that has an expected return on investment of a NWN2 or MotB. It's not a lack of interest in the games, it's a lack of interest in the relatively low sales given the cost of development," while mentioning in the same post that they were modestly profitable.

 

[thesisko]

Obsidian employees like Nathaniel Chapman says it means "no publisher or developer is going to be excited to develop the kind of game that has an expected return on investment of a NWN2 or MotB. It's not a lack of interest in the games, it's a lack of interest in the relatively low sales given the cost of development," while mentioning in the same post that they were modestly profitable.

I think that raises some interesting questions:

1. Did Obsidian spend more than necessary to develop NWN2? Statements by Sawyer seem to indicate so.
2. Did NWN2 sell worse than projected by Atari? It certainly sold far less than NWN, which I assume had a similar budget.
3. Have publishers expectations for returns increased since 2006? I think there's plenty of evidence that they have, at least the kind of publishers Obsidian deal with.

The combination of these three factors probably means that Obsidian can never use NWN2 as a positive example when pitching new projects. However, it doesn't mean that at similar game can't be interesting to another publisher/developer, where the factors above are different. European/niche publishers have lower expectations on returns, a similar game can be made more cheaply (Drakensang) and it's certainly possible for a similar game to sell far more than NWN2 did (DA:O).

Imagine for instance, if BioWare had handed the development of DA2 to Obsidian. It would probably have been better than DA:O and I doubt they would have lost any sales since it would still carry the BioWare name. But Obsidian is simply not in the position to make a game like that on their own, even if they believed they could make a satisfactorily profitable one.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Obsidian started with two amazing opportunities, two biggest fucking licenses (compared to which South Park is nothing).

Wait, what? South Park is most certainly bigger than Neverwinter Nights and its Creators only gained Popularity over the years (through various succesful projects). It still draws ~2.5-3Mil. a week US only.

Meant the DnD license, not NWN.

I don't know what "both commercially and critically successful products" mean exactly, but I do know that in this sequel-obsessed world neither Atari nor Lucas Arts were interested in a third game. That's gotta tell you something.

Obsidian employees like Nathaniel Chapman says it means "no publisher or developer is going to be excited to develop the kind of game that has an expected return on investment of a NWN2 or MotB. It's not a lack of interest in the games, it's a lack of interest in the relatively low sales given the cost of development," while mentioning in the same post that they were modestly profitable.

Modestly profitable (made some money :shrug and commercially successful (holy mother of god, look at the size of that profit! let's make moar!) are two different things.

That's what Nathaniel says in the first sentence: the return on the investment is low. Using his own logic, the return on NWN1 was good enough to warrant a sequel. The return on NWN2 wasn't. Could Obsidian have done a much better job? According to the interview I linked to earlier, yes, they definitely could have. They were given a great opportunity, but fucked it up.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

This looks more interesting than any of their shitty nwn expansions or alpha brotocol ever did.

I don't know what "both commercially and critically successful products" mean exactly, but I do know that in this sequel-obsessed world neither Atari nor Lucas Arts were interested in a third game. That's gotta tell you something.

Lucasarts canned the sequel to battlefront 2, which just so happened to be the best selling star wars title ever. Lucasarts just doesn't give a fuck.

 

[DalekFlay]

I HATE ADS IN FRONT OF ADS IN FRONT OF ADS OMG.

Anyway...

Sounds more like a console style RPG like Final Fantasy than anything else, but I am still interested. I actually like the combat in a lot of those games, it was more the batshit insane Japanese stuff that turned me off most of them.

 

[villain of the story]

First of all half the codex pretty much ARE pale basement virgins.

Actually, half the Codex are working people, many of them with families.

 

[villain of the story]

I just read through most of the comments on that video and boy, I don't wanna live on this planet anymore.

"Simple, yet deep - Just the way I love it" - YOU CAN'T HAVE SIMPLE AND DEEP IN THE SAME TIME. AAAAARGH. You can have a "good" "simple-to-deep" "ratio", with "good" being in context to some intended core market or something like that. Not universally "simple but deep". But meh.

Sure you can. Complexity is simplicity multiplied. In a certain perspective, you can think of it like multiplying something with zero.

Take Daggerfall. Combat is a pretty simple business in Daggerfall. The way it plays for any type of player is more or less the same. But what goes behind the curtain is very complex and nuanced, making the differences between builds matter.

 

[Roguey]

Modestly profitable (made some money :shrug and commercially successful (holy mother of god, look at the size of that profit! let's make moar!) are two different things.

I'd say that anything that makes money is commercially successful. A lot of games end up losing money. By Avellone's admission it took Torment years to get out of the red and NWN2 was certainly a lot better than a Torment-level "success."

That's what Nathaniel says in the first sentence: the return on the investment is low. Using his own logic, the return on NWN1 was good enough to warrant a sequel. The return on NWN2 wasn't. Could Obsidian have done a much better job? According to the interview I linked to earlier, yes, they definitely could have. They were given a great opportunity, but fucked it up.

Even if it were a better game, I'm not sure that would automatically translate to more sales. I'm with thesisko on this one, I suspect the publishers' collective expectations for their RoI have gone up since the early 00s and it just seems unlikely that any kind of traditional party-based RPG would give them what they want (unless it were a low-budget ipad or facebook app of course).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Modestly profitable (made some money :shrug and commercially successful (holy mother of god, look at the size of that profit! let's make moar!) are two different things.

I'd say that anything that makes money is commercially successful.

Definitely not. Nobody wants to risk (it's always a risk) tens of millions of dollars for a lousy (let's say 10%) profit after 2 years. I have no idea how many copies NWN2 sold, what the budget was, etc, but clearly it wasn't a commercially successful title. If it was, Nathaniel wouldn't have added "modest" (you just don't do it if you think your game did well), and Atari would have humped Feargus' leg to get NWN3 going.

A lot of games end up losing money. By Avellone's admission it took Torment years to get out of the red and NWN2 was certainly a lot better than a Torment-level "success."

Better than a flop doesn't mean good.

Even if it were a better game, I'm not sure that would automatically translate to more sales. I'm with thesisko on this one, I suspect the publishers' collective expectations for their RoI have gone up since the early 00s and it just seems unlikely that any kind of traditional party-based RPG would give them what they want (unless it were a low-budget ipad or facebook app of course).

Dragon Age sold pretty well - 3.2 mil copies in 6 months.