Interview Spiderweb Software Interview

[Alex]

Sorry, Brother None, but I have to agree somewhat with Thrasher here.

Oh, I agree vaguely with him too. I like the challenge fights being there, and I think they'll still be, just less than in Avernum 6, and really, honestly, Avernum 6 overdid it.

Where I just have to laugh it off is when he starts twisting what Jeff Vogel actually said to make it sound like he's "removing" challenge fights, that it "seems" like his intention is to dump his core audience to popularize the game. Vogel is a good designer who listens to fan feedback, and who balances criticism rather than just ignore it to be obstinately edgy, as Trasher might prefer. So he's changing a bit of is design style because it simply wasn't that good. Boo-hoo?

The problem here is the odd perspective that there's some kind of dichotomic, absolute divide between dumbing down and dumbing up. That it's fine to throw shitty challenges at the player because that's more intelligent, challenging gaming? It's not, it's shitty design. He identified something that doesn't works that well, and he's removing it. Quick, sound the alarm!

The reaction may not have been the best, but I guess people are just nervous. I have seem couple of newsposts around here putting Jeff Vogel in a bad light. I agree that what he is saying isn't bad per se, but I can see why a lot of people would see it that way.

all other factors being equal

But that is never the case.

Or is there a trade-off in there somewhere (besides making the game more accessible, that is)?

There are many, many tradeoffs. Quality of design. Depth of narrative. Flexibility in important choices, which is something that leaks out the more non-linear you make your narrative. In the end intelligent gameplay and design are about intent, and linear or non-linear isn't the most important point there. Fallout 3 really doesn't become less dumbed down because it's non-linear.

I personally have a big preference for non-linear gaming. But I'm not going to pretend it's something it's not.

I agree with you completely that simply having a less linear game won't make a game better. While I think that giving the player a good amount of freedom is crucial in any game, this is meaningless if the choices he makes aren't given fleshed out consequences (which I think is what most of your tradeoffs are about). The only thing I don't understand very well is your point about flexibility in important choices.

But what I was trying to understand is if you had an idea of how Jeff was going to improve these challenge fights. I actually loved how in gothic (and Risen) you sometimes could use the situation in order to beat monsters way out of your league. Attracting it to town, getting a companion to go with you in that area, using rivers to slow it down so you can pelt it with arrows, running away from it, etc. While far from perfect, these games used stronger monsters in a very good way.

So, do you think Jeff will actually improve these fights so they are more like Gothic's? Or maybe like some other game? Or possibly have some new idea to make them worthwhile? Because from the blogpost Elwro posted, the impression I got is that Jeff will only make them more rare, while keeping the role they have on design...

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Although I agree linear cRPGs are fuck-all, some people do find combat interesting, mein herr.

Dedicated tactical games usually have much better combat. Mostly because their creators usually don't have funny ideas like "My game is mostly about combat, therefore I won't bother creating a good combat system." (thinking typical for cRPG developers)

 

[Mortmal]

Sorry, Brother None, but I have to agree somewhat with Thrasher here.

Oh, I agree vaguely with him too. I like the challenge fights being there, and I think they'll still be, just less than in Avernum 6, and really, honestly, Avernum 6 overdid it.

NO , no , no! Whats going on in fair codexia ?
You want filler fights after filler fights like in dragon age awakening or just a shooter sequence like mass effect 2 ? He certainly did not overdone it for me, i rarely had a party wipe in avernum 6 and those fight just required more carefull planning, nothing impossible to overcome at all, the challenge is what makes the game interesting, probably while i liked so much KOTC as well or games like xcom and jagged alliance, you can fail at any moment . If you remove the possibility to fail an encounter you negate everything the rpg stand for .The only thing i would change is to add more possibilities to escape the fights going bad (wich is already possibleto a certain extent) or more diplomacy options, but putting artificial barrier to be sure to encounter something of the same level that really piss me off, wheres the adventuring ?

 

[Fez]

I liked the balance in the Geneforge games. There were plenty ways you could completely screw yourself over or end up in impossible (or too high level) fights if you blundered into them or angered the wrong people enough. There was a few times that retreat was the only option.

You had plenty warning or a chance of escape, so it was still fair.

 

[PorkaMorka]

I did not like the early unbeatable monsters in Avernum 6.

Not because I died, I like it when a game keeps me always very close to death and dieing quite a bit.

I hated the fact that these monsters were clearly intended to only be beatable when I leveled up more.

I didn't have a chance at the time, so I had to waste my time walking across otherwise cleared land, just to check if my guys were high enough level to beat some random demon or slime, then go "nope" and come back in a few levels.

It would be less of a concern for me in another type of game, but in his games you spend soooooo much time just walking across the map, I need fruitless 10 minute walks to be cut down as much as possible.

What's worse is he actually gave out quests early on for monsters you would encounter early on, but could not beat for many many levels, luring you into wasting your time on content that is designed for a party far above yours in level.

If a game is going to be built like Avernum, where getting somewhere takes a lot of real life walking time, and the "exploration" gameplay already requires hours and hours of walking around "exploring" mushroom fields, then it should take that into account and reduce backtracking and fedex type missions, otherwise you spend additional hours just walking around explored areas, not doing anything.

Avernum 6 reminds me of Hommlet in TOEE, I just replayed Hommlet in TOEE and I had literally an hour of gameplay or more consisting of my guys slowly *walking* from hovel to hovel to go to talk to peasants. (that doesn't include the actual talking mind you)

In Avernum 6 Chapters 1-1.5 I had at least an hour of gameplay consisting of *walking* around to check on encounters I wasn't supposed to be able to beat yet. (that doesn't include the actual fights mind you)

I would much rather spend an hour of gameplay reloading to beat an encounter which is perfectly tuned to just barely be beatable, then to spend that hour literally just walking.

 

[nomask7]

What is a dangerous dungeon that isn't, after all, dangerous? It's crap, that's what.

Seriously. I don't get it. Where comes this crazy idea that the monsters are there to be hunted for easy loot? They're MONSTERS, not rabbits and ducks.

The walking around is dull, yes, if the paths that can be travelled are all friendly places with toothless snakes and little birds.

On the other hand, having to be careful, and rather avoid the monsters than hunt them, is fun. It's partly why Gothic 2: Night of the Raven is the best game ever made. The only monster placement in that game I don't get is the dragon snapper eating the dead body of a paladin with a light rune when you first come to the Valley. Good luck trying to get that light rune.

In Avernum 6, I went to inspect a place that turned out to have another group of adventures there. They were maybe ten or twenty levels above mine, so even though I had the most over-powered group of bastards you could get by adding all those special traits in the character creation at the beginning, I had to escape, which wasn't easy, but I escaped nevertheless, which was fun.

I was playing on hard, btw ... which reminds me: a game of this sort really shouldn't have a variety of difficulty levels to choose from. It messes up the whole system that's based on the idea that MAYBE I CAN BEAT THAT HIGH LEVEL MONSTER BEFORE I'M HIGH LEVEL MYSELF AND BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE CAN. Why don't you just remove character levels altogether, Jeff? Look at Oblivion for more hints. Or you could go the right way and look at G2: NotR instead. Either make a game where character levels matter, or one where they don't matter. If they don't matter, different difficulty levels, choosable by the player, make sense. If character levels DO matter, then only one default difficulty level makes sense, and any other possible difficulty level would be "not tested, try at your own risk", or would, at any rate, change the nature of the game (as do the different difficulty levels in Doom ... not a game with character levels, but a good, clear example of how different difficulty levels change the whole essence of a game ... another example is, of course, Gothic 2, where a monster-hunting holiday simulation turns into a more realistic travel-these-roads-at-your-own-risk game in NotR with added difficulty).

 

[PorkaMorka]

Avernum 6's over-leveled monsters are mostly completely static and sitting in out of the way and clearly labeled areas, so it's not as if they serve to create an element of danger that you need to evade, they're just standard loot dispensers, except you need to come back at higher level to cash in.

A true sense of danger from monsters would indeed be ideal, but it doesn't come from over leveled but passive monsters. I would like to see a sense of danger created my monsters which are active rather than sitting around passively.

Of course, that would not work if these were massively over leveled monsters, instead you'd want them to be strong enough that you could win, but only at a cost of a significant amount of resources, so that if you kept failing to evade, they'd bring you down.

 

[nomask7]

Two points.

1) The leveling system makes no sense if it's linear, and you can always beat anything you meet. Just remove the character and monster levels (threat ratings) altogether if that's what you're after.

2) What were those super lethal, roaming ancient monsters in Geneforge 5? I loved them. Absolutely loved them. I'm not exaggerating. Loved them. You couldn't kill them at first, and they roamed the swamps and were more dangerous than the shadow beast in NotR, if that's possible

 

[Fez]

I think at least some of the other Geneforge titles had some mighty opponents dropped in, as well as plenty obstacles you could kill yourself on if you were incautious enough to blunder into them and ignore any warning signs.

What I liked about the balance of that swamp encounter (and some others) was that you could escape, rebuild and return later. It didn't have to be insta-death unless you charged in. A sensible retreat when you could see you were outmatched meant you didn't need to be locked out or forced to encounter only enemies at your level.

With that area you were given plenty warning and a way to go around the edges. It was a good way of setting it up and if you wanted a challenge - likely suicidal early on - you could go for it anyway. I know I made it top priority to take at least one on earlier than I "should". Managed it eventually too.

It also gave the player a sense of awe at these powerful enemies (thanks to them demonstrating how tough they are by crushing you or your party) and then a sense of achievement or progress when you manage to destroy one or all of them.

If you met them for the first time as you would with most of the chaff (set at levels judged to be suitable for the player) then you'd just roll over them like you would with any other monster and move on. Nothing really special and if over done it can feel like level-scaling.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Two points.

1) The leveling system makes no sense if it's linear, and you can always beat anything you meet. Just remove the character and monster levels (threat ratings) altogether if that's what you're after.

Well, yes and no.

If the game is more linear then it to some extent decreases the relevance of the JRPG style "get 5 more levels and come back for an easy win" mechanic. But is that really a bad thing? That was never really an interesting aspect of leveling anyway.

Levels could still function as a way to gradually customize and enhance the powers and abilities of your characters over time though, for example by learning new feats and spells, or customizing your stats etc. This aspect requires a well done character development system though.

2) What were those super lethal, roaming ancient monsters in Geneforge 5? I loved them. Absolutely loved them. I'm not exaggerating. Loved them. You couldn't kill them at first, and they roamed the swamps and were more dangerous than the shadow beast in NotR, if that's possible

Did not play that game, but that sounds a lot more fun, an element of danger is a good thing.

 

[Fez]

I think the swamp example is where the ideal for both of you meets. It was written into the main story and as a natural way direct your movements with difficult obstacles too (as well as impressing the claims of the NPCs all the more when they talk of the threat at hand) without simply putting up something as basic and crappy as a wall. So not just a random big bad monster in a cave with no explanation that you came back to later to get the inevitable plus nine sword or pile of gold at the back of the cave. An example of how it should be done.

Although even sparing use of an optional "challenge" enemy you can go out of your way to fight isn't always a bad thing if it is not overused.

 

[nomask7]

I looted their hiding place at some point not too far into the game. There were lots of the monsters there. I guess it was part of a quest.

 

[Fez]

It could have just been there as a reward for exploration. Vogel often adds in such rewards for those who wish to side track from the main path.

 

[nomask7]

No, I'm certain it was part of some quest. Had to find a sample or some such ... perhaps to help defeat them.

edit: or simply find their lair and take a look around. Maybe that was the quest.

 

[betamin]

Two points.

1) The leveling system makes no sense if it's linear, and you can always beat anything you meet. Just remove the character and monster levels (threat ratings) altogether if that's what you're after.

Well, yes and no.

If the game is more linear then it to some extent decreases the relevance of the JRPG style "get 5 more levels and come back for an easy win" mechanic. But is that really a bad thing? That was never really an interesting aspect of leveling anyway.

Levels could still function as a way to gradually customize and enhance the powers and abilities of your characters over time though, for example by learning new feats and spells, or customizing your stats etc. This aspect requires a well done character development system though.

2) What were those super lethal, roaming ancient monsters in Geneforge 5? I loved them. Absolutely loved them. I'm not exaggerating. Loved them. You couldn't kill them at first, and they roamed the swamps and were more dangerous than the shadow beast in NotR, if that's possible

Did not play that game, but that sounds a lot more fun, an element of danger is a good thing.

Play it dude, its great, better than avernum IMO. Still has slow walking speed but thanks to a code/cheat you can exit zones instantly making the game flow better. Allows solo stealth/diplomat style so its a breath of fresh air.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I'm having a hell of a time trying to kill the damn Dark Loyalist mage that spawns 4 shadows (each one immune only to one type of attack), and also a fucking lich in that fortress with a fuckton of skeletons. I've tried several times but still gettin raped.

Edit: Typoes.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I'm having a hell of a time trying to kill the damn Dark Loyalist mage that spawns 4 shadows (each one immune only to one type of attack).

Yep, same here. Typical "I'll be back" situation.

 

[Annonchinil]

Does spiderweb provide a download option for their games?

 

[Fez]

Yes.

 

[nomask7]

The demos you can download are the games themselves. You just need the registration key to unlock their potential.