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Tactics in TB combat

callehe

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
459
Location
Gothic Castle
Hyperboy
I like your idea, it makes more sense than the usual case where you can have one hitpoint and still attack with full strength. I think Silent Storm had a system like that, where you could sustain different types of crippling wounds.

Vault Dweller
I think it would be nice if you could kick your enemies. It could be useful as an alternative attack if you are only armed with a very short range weapon as a dagger.
 

Fresh

Erudite
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
1,057
Location
Vault boy's secret hideout
Yeah SS had sum kind of crippling-system, but Ive only played it for a couple of hours so I cant tell wheter its any good/fun. (Saving it til I get a better comp)


More features:
I really like the non-lethal attacks in games like Gothic. This way u can disable peeps, rob em, etc without killing them. This is a VERY attractive feature, since its lets you play as a violent/aggresive char without actually having to KILL every1. Again heres a feaeture thats creates MIDDLEGROUND between full health/nonviolence and stonedead chars/murder.

Perhaps u could challenge/taunt npcs in agreeing to non-lethal fights/brawls & that way avoiding the tiresome "now the whole town hates you". It'd be a (relatively harmless) bar fight and not pathological murder.


Who are making this game btw? When, what to expect?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,035
!HyPeRbOy! said:
...my single most wanted feature affecting tactics would be a complex system for determining the effects of any attack. A system where u target and do damage to specific bodyparts/areas. A system where different weapons do diff kind of damage. All sorts of factors could impact the final effect.
You can't target body parts, although that's a cool feature; all weapons do the same type of damage (no piercing, slashing, etc), although I'm fond of such systems too; there are different effects for different weapons and weapon classes.

I sooo loathe the all to usual "hitpoints-pool" you're supposed to bring down to zero
HPs range from 30 to 50. Avg damage per attack is about 4-12. Assuming that you can hit your opponent or go through the armor, it won't take long to bring someone down.

Stark said:
VD,

for your first game you might want to keep the combat complexity at a more modest level
It's modest. A lot of things require only some calcualtions, not new particle effects. Feint, for example, would look just like a regular attack, the only real effects are the guaranteed miss for this attack, and the modifiers that would be applied to the next attack in the same turn.

callehe said:
I think it would be nice if you could kick your enemies. It could be useful as an alternative attack if you are only armed with a very short range weapon as a dagger.
No, wouldn't work. I'm limited with animations (see that avatars and animations thread), so kicking animation is a luxury, and without animation it would be kinda silly.

!HyPeRbOy! said:
I really like the non-lethal attacks in games like Gothic
Combat is like in Gothic: non-lethal but you can finish someone off after the combat is over. The game tracks your rep, so if you have high BodyCount that wouldn't mean that you fight a lot, but that you *kill* a lot. That would close some quests and open others.

Who are making this game btw? When, what to expect?
4 people team, I'm in charge; Fall sounds about right; what to expect? - I dunno. An RPG. Turn-based, skill-based, non-linear, multiple quests solutions, a diplomatic path. Lotsa dialogues. Fantasy, low magic. Static HPs, no levels. Setting is early romans, persians. None of that medieval crap. What else you wish to know?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,035
Not yet. I need to have a lot of things in place before I start the hype show.
 

Fresh

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Messages
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Location
Vault boy's secret hideout
Vault Dweller said:
Combat is like in Gothic: non-lethal but you can finish someone off after the combat is over. The game tracks your rep, so if you have high BodyCount that wouldn't mean that you fight a lot, but that you *kill* a lot. That would close some quests and open others.
snip
4 people team, I'm in charge; Fall sounds about right; what to expect? - I dunno. An RPG. Turn-based, skill-based, non-linear, multiple quests solutions, a diplomatic path. Lotsa dialogues. Fantasy, low magic. Static HPs, no levels. Setting is early romans, persians. None of that medieval crap. What else you wish to know?

Non-lethal whopping & rep-tracking sounds great.

I guess I've missed this in earlier posts(?), but is there a info-page sumwhere? With answers to questions like: What kinda interface/engine are we talking here? Are there any screens available? Any similar games/engines u can compare it with? Any concept art? (I love concept art) Inspiration - books/games/etc?

Anyways the features described above sounds alot like the kinda game I'd want to play. I especially like the sound of the early roman/persian-setting & it being low-magic. This is resonating with ideas in my own worldbuilding-projects, so of course I like it.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,035
!HyPeRbOy! said:
... is there a info-page sumwhere?
No, not yet. That's why I'm not releasing any screens - I need a site, to make proper descriptions, FAQ, overviews, etc. I simply don't have time for that right now. Shouldn't take longer than a few months though.

What kinda interface/engine are we talking here?
2D custom engine. The interface is inspired by Fallout. A lot.

Any similar games/engines u can compare it with?
Spiderweb games, the ones with proper animation like GF.

Any concept art? (I love concept art)
Plenty and it's awesome. Items art is great too. Some folks here saw some art, they are free to comment if they wish to. Like I said, I won't be able to post anything until I'm ready.

Inspiration - books/games/etc?
A lot of things, hard to be specific. If I have to pick one that would be Quarzhasaat.
 

RobRendell

Novice
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
9
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Hi, all. I've been lurking as a guest for a while here, reading through all the AoD posts in this forum. I must say that I'm looking forward to the game when it comes out, it looks like it's going to be cool.

Anyway, I've subscribed now because amongst all the features of the game that I think are great, there's one that I'm not certain about: the following comment by VaultDweller (made in a few different places) has me concerned. Sorry to necro an old thread as my first post to the forums, but it's generally better than starting a fresh thread, and I thought I'd see if I could re-open the topic of unused APs for discussion.

Vault Dweller said:
Sovy Kurosei said:
I'm not sure if this has been addressed already, but what are you going to do with left over action points? Will it be akin to Fallout by diverting those action points to armour class? Or can you carry over action points from your previous turn to your next turn? Or do you have some other system in place?
Haven't decided yet (means that currently unused APs are wasted). That's how it will probably stay.

Discarding unused AP, especially when available APs are low compared to the cost of attacking (like they will be in AoD, and as they were in Fallout 1/2) makes for a significant break-point in the rules. If the cheapest attack is, say, 3 AP, then there's an enourmously significant difference between a character with 5 AP and one with 6 AP, and another lesser but still large one between one with 8 and one with 9.

This might be balanced a bit by the fact that AoD is going to have more options than Fallout for more AP-expensive power attacks etc., so your 5 AP character just does a 5 AP attack and your 6 AP char does either two 3 AP attacks or one 6 AP attack. Still, I see discarding unused APs as a bad thing.

The three obvious alternatives for discarding them are the Fallout method (unused APs increase your ability to defend yourself), the JA2 method (you can carry unused AP, up to half your AP total, into the next round), or the idea mentioned elsewhere in these forums of being able to go into debt and spend APs from your following round in a final action of the current turn. Of the three, I'd personally prefer the JA2 method, but that's just my preference.

Anyway, there you go. I've had my say - go ahead and rip me to shreds :)
 

RGE

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
773
Location
Karlstad, Sweden
I agree for the same reasons, but would prefer the debt system for accuracy. Carrying over up to half the APs seems like it could run into similar problems as wasted APs, just not as likely or as fast or as often. The debt alternative could render a real slow person unable to do anything for a few turns though, which seems like a better idea than not being able to do anything but moving due to attacks and accessing inventory costing more APs than availible.

The extra AC option in Fallout was so incredibly crappy that I wonder why they even bothered with it. A more balanced alternative might be to give a set chance (30% perhaps) to dodge one successful attack for every saved AP. Though I think I read something about a dodge skill, and with that in mind I don't see why APs (all of them) shouldn't be used for actions.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,035
RobRendell said:
Hi, all. I've been lurking as a guest for a while here, reading through all the AoD posts in this forum. I must say that I'm looking forward to the game when it comes out, it looks like it's going to be cool.
Thanks, Rob, and welcome to the Codex.

Sorry to necro an old thread as my first post to the forums, but it's generally better than starting a fresh thread, and I thought I'd see if I could re-open the topic of unused APs for discussion.
That's what these discussions are for. If you feel you have a valid point to make, dig them all out.

If the cheapest attack is, say, 3 AP, then there's an enourmously significant difference between a character with 5 AP and one with 6 AP, and another lesser but still large one between one with 8 and one with 9.

This might be balanced a bit by the fact that AoD is going to have more options than Fallout for more AP-expensive power attacks etc., so your 5 AP character just does a 5 AP attack and your 6 AP char does either two 3 AP attacks or one 6 AP attack.
That's the plan. There are fast attacks (-1AP), power attacks (+1AP), and special attacks like whirlwind. Finding something to do with unused APs shouldn't be a problem.

While 9AP may mean 3 3AP attacks, 8AP may mean 2 power attacks with a dagger, reg attack with a sword and reg attack with a dagger, power attack with a sword and a fast attack with a dagger, 4 fast attacks with a dagger, etc.

There really are a lot of possibilities there.

The three obvious alternatives for discarding them are the Fallout method (unused APs increase your ability to defend yourself), the JA2 method (you can carry unused AP, up to half your AP total, into the next round), or the idea mentioned elsewhere in these forums of being able to go into debt and spend APs from your following round in a final action of the current turn. Of the three, I'd personally prefer the JA2 method, but that's just my preference.
What I don't see here is the reason why such a feature should be used. If you often have unused points, then something should be done about it, but as you can see above, I doubt it.

I see, however, an opportunity for abuse: you start combat and throw a spear at someone - 5AP, your opponent in heavy armor advances slowly (it takes him a turn to reach you - 6-7 APs). You are a light fighter with 10AP, you spent 5AP to throw the spear, you add 5 you saved and now you have 15 points which you can strategically employ to tear your opponent's ass apart. Considering that HPs are limited, that's a huge advantage.

That's my position.

RGE said:
The debt alternative could render a real slow person unable to do anything for a few turns though, which seems like a better idea than not being able to do anything but moving due to attacks and accessing inventory costing more APs than availible.
A debt system could make low Dex less penalizing than it should be. A strong but slow fighter in heavy armor absorbing tons of damage could easily afford skipping a turn and hiding inside the armor to buy himself bonus APs.

If one's too slow to catch a fast opponent, switch to ranged, use nets, etc. Plan your character. If you decided to make a character with 6APs, you know that he aint gonna be able to run all over a battlefield, so cover that weakness with something. Considering that 6APs means that you saved some stat points on Dex, I assume other stats have enjoyed superior development, so use whatever advantage they gave you.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
If I remember correctly you were trying to stay away from the "OMG!! 40 ancient gold dragons! Good thing I'm lvl 20, I have 4423 hp and -24 AC and all spellz, lol" syndrome.

How does this play out with only one character? If I'm walking down the road and 5 bandits jump out with bows drawn - am I dead?, or will I cut down the last one with a dozen arrows sticking out of me?

For nomenclature, I'd consider most of what's been mentioned here techniques vs tactics - as someone else mentioned to me tactics is how you using troops/resources wisely to achieve an objective. The things in this thread seem more like a van damme simulator than tactics. But hey if RTS's use "strategy" instead of "tactics", you might as well follow suit. :)

Also not having flanking, surrounding bonuses is a big mistake for a "tactical" combat system. Making very unrealistic simplications like this is maybe the worst way of balancing out the single PC thing - it would be much better to just have small encounters, or allow the PC to become superman. A kung fu movie where 50 guys charge the hero and he let's loose impossible kicks and punches to destroy them all is cheesy, but better than a kung fu movie where 50 guys charge to 10' away and then take turns attacking so that our more realistic hero can still defeat them all.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,035
obediah said:
If I remember correctly you were trying to stay away from the "OMG!! 40 ancient gold dragons! Good thing I'm lvl 20, I have 4423 hp and -24 AC and all spellz, lol" syndrome.
You remember correctly

How does this play out with only one character? If I'm walking down the road and 5 bandits jump out with bows drawn - am I dead?, or will I cut down the last one with a dozen arrows sticking out of me?
That depends on the build. A good fighter can fight against 2-3 opponents. A great fighter has a chance against 5. A diplomat/merchant can talk/buy his way out though. A perceptive character may notice the ambush and do something about - take a different route, sneak, silent kills.

...as someone else mentioned to me tactics is how you using troops/resources wisely to achieve an objective.
Resources, the way I see it. In most games there is no difference between different weapons - they damage stuff. In AoD there is: you use different weapons to disarm shields (see one of the top threads), hammers to knock people down Fallout-style, weapons against armored opponents, spears to keep opponents at bay, etc
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
First off, the combat sounds interesting - I'd still rather have a party, but it sounds interesting.

Vault Dweller said:
...as someone else mentioned to me tactics is how you using troops/resources wisely to achieve an objective.
Resources, the way I see it. In most games there is no difference between different weapons - they damage stuff. In AoD there is: you use different weapons to disarm shields (see one of the top threads), hammers to knock people down Fallout-style, weapons against armored opponents, spears to keep opponents at bay, etc

Damn, if I have time later I'd like to talk about this a bit. I don't think of combat in fallout being tactical either, but something less abstract. "Don't let anyone through that door" seems like tactics, the particular weapons, and techniques used seem like something lower level. I think most party-based tactics games sit in the middle of these layers - less abstract than being a platoon leader, but abstracting out a lot of techniques to keep combat moving. Without the party to control adding these types of factors back seems a good step.

The key difference for me is that with tactics, you have some knowledge of what each person is capable of and you trust them to live up to that. With your system, you're focusing on how those tasks are accomplished. Rather than just sticking the guy with heavy armor and a buttload of hp in the doorway and watching the attacks bounce off of him, your system would have the person fighting to maintain control of his shield, and his footing, and maybe reacting differently to someone with a spear vs a sword.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,035
obediah said:
First off, the combat sounds interesting - I'd still rather have a party, but it sounds interesting.
Thanks

Damn, if I have time later I'd like to talk about this a bit.
Please do.

... your system would have the person fighting to maintain control of his shield, and his footing, and maybe reacting differently to someone with a spear vs a sword.
Pretty much. That's why we did the weapon synergies thingy, to give fighters a chance to use different weapons in different circumstances instead of being stuck with one or one group like swords. You still will be much more proficient with the one you specialize in, but you won't suck with other weapons.
 

RobRendell

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Messages
9
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Vault Dweller said:
RobRendell said:
This might be balanced a bit by the fact that AoD is going to have more options than Fallout for more AP-expensive power attacks etc., so your 5 AP character just does a 5 AP attack and your 6 AP char does either two 3 AP attacks or one 6 AP attack.
That's the plan. There are fast attacks (-1AP), power attacks (+1AP), and special attacks like whirlwind. Finding something to do with unused APs shouldn't be a problem.

While 9AP may mean 3 3AP attacks, 8AP may mean 2 power attacks with a dagger, reg attack with a sword and reg attack with a dagger, power attack with a sword and a fast attack with a dagger, 4 fast attacks with a dagger, etc.

There really are a lot of possibilities there.

Ok, I can see that. I guess I just don't want to end up with a character that frequently ends his turn with 1 or 2 APs left over, due to the weapons he favours and his starting stats (which don't change). I could have chosen a lower Agility at character creation and been no less capable, AP-wise, and spent those points elsewhere.

Anyway, this is really just nit-picking. I'm not that obsessed with combat, and it's not going to be the only path through the game, I'm just concerned about rulesets with break-points in them (like how in 3rd edition D&D, you get the benefit for higher stats only on the even values, so you'll generally see characters with mostly even stats. Having more than a few odd stats is "wasteful", even if it fits your idea of your character).


Vault Dweller said:
I see, however, an opportunity for abuse: you start combat and throw a spear at someone - 5AP, your opponent in heavy armor advances slowly (it takes him a turn to reach you - 6-7 APs). You are a light fighter with 10AP, you spent 5AP to throw the spear, you add 5 you saved and now you have 15 points which you can strategically employ to tear your opponent's ass apart. Considering that HPs are limited, that's a huge advantage.

That's my position.
Fair enough. Carrying over half your total is overpowered, you're right. I was thinking of characters with lower AP totals who were unable to make use of their "spare change", rather than speedsters using it to get 2 or 3 extra attacks. If you do eventually go with the "rolling over unused APs" idea, then, probably limit it to a flat maximum of 2, maybe 3 APs from the previous round.

Anyway, I guess this particular issue is something that wouldn't be hard to tweak very late in the development. Code it for now with unused APs getting discarded, as you intend. When it comes to beta testing, you can tinker with it then with minimal impact on the rest of the game if discarding APs seems to be a problem.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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RobRendell said:
Ok, I can see that. I guess I just don't want to end up with a character that frequently ends his turn with 1 or 2 APs left over, due to the weapons he favours and his starting stats (which don't change).
I really can't see how. First, no matter what your weapon of choice is, you can find something within that group that fits your AP. For example, swords have short sword - 4APs, long sword - 5 APs, 2H sword - 6APs. Add/subtract 1 for power/fast attack, and you get 3-7AP range. Second, we have weapons synergies, which means that as you become better with swords, for example, your understanding of other weapons grow too. So, you can use other weapons with 40-60% of your primary skill.

I'm just concerned about rulesets with break-points in them (like how in 3rd edition D&D, you get the benefit for higher stats only on the even values, so you'll generally see characters with mostly even stats.
Again, don't see how. Show me if you can, give me some examples.

Anyway, I guess this particular issue is something that wouldn't be hard to tweak very late in the development. Code it for now with unused APs getting discarded, as you intend. When it comes to beta testing, you can tinker with it then with minimal impact on the rest of the game if discarding APs seems to be a problem.
That's the plan.
 

Human Shield

Augur
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Messages
2,027
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VA, USA
How do you run away from battle? Random map encounters have a play field? Do you have to limp out of towns in TB mode?

How fast is TB going to be in a big city with time-wasting innocents moving around?
 

RobRendell

Novice
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Messages
9
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Vault Dweller said:
Show me if you can, give me some examples.
Ok, say you've gone for the common RPG setup of longsword and shield, and your skill is low enough that you don't have whirlwind attacks or anything. So, you've just got the three basic attacks: quick (4 AP), normal (5 AP) and power (6 AP), and no second weapon (because of the shield) without spending AP to go into your inventory. With a 7 AP character, you can't use all your APs on attacking.

However, it's an artificial example. You could choose to use a shortsword using the same skill as the longsword, and get in a normal and a quick attack.

Also, it might be that you can use the "spare" AP to move away from your enemies, forcing them to burn APs chasing you, as long as they don't have ranged or longer-reach weapons than you.

So you're probably right, you should be able to accommodate your character's speed through weapon choice and attack choice without unused APs coming up very often.

Edit: maybe the above example is a good reason to allow shield-bashes after all :)
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,035
Human Shield said:
How do you run away from battle?
Like hell. :lol: At this point when combat starts, a combat area (battlefield) is defined. If you leave the battlefield, we shall assume that you chickened out and managed to run away.

Random map encounters have a play field?
Yes

Do you have to limp out of towns in TB mode?
No. When combat is over, TB is over.

How fast is TB going to be in a big city with time-wasting innocents moving around?
Reasonably fast (what's fast for me could be slow for you). Average combat session features you (duh!), 1-3 opponents, 1-2 civilians. Civilians would try to get the fuck out, so in a turn or two they are out of the picture.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
RobRendell said:
Ok, say you've gone for the common RPG setup of longsword and shield, and your skill is low enough that you don't have whirlwind attacks or anything. So, you've just got the three basic attacks: quick (4 AP), normal (5 AP) and power (6 AP), and no second weapon (because of the shield) without spending AP to go into your inventory. With a 7 AP character, you can't use all your APs on attacking.
Unless using that longsword is extremely important to your character, he can switch to a short sword, and go with standard attack + fast attack. That's what I meant.

However, it's an artificial example. You could choose to use a shortsword using the same skill as the longsword, and get in a normal and a quick attack.
Should have read that first :)

Also, it might be that you can use the "spare" AP to move away from your enemies, forcing them to burn APs chasing you, as long as they don't have ranged or longer-reach weapons than you.
That too.

Edit: maybe the above example is a good reason to allow shield-bashes after all :)
We'll consider that, but I doubt that bashing someone with a shield would be a faster action than swinging a sword. I'd say that the bashing should cost 3-4APs, but let me play with this concept for awhile.
 

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