TB Systems of combat

[Human Shield]

I'd like just a system of progressive penatly. You are probably going to try and dodge every attack made at you but after so many in a short time you are just aimlessly moving (but you can get lucky). A machine gun can fire tons of bullets very quickly but each additional burst would have penatlies. So if you are surround by 4 attackers you could attack each one but by the fourth one your character would be trying to go too fast and would be less accurate. There would be an upper limit but normal people can fire shots off quickly and sword fighters move fast.

Something like the unisystem used in AFMBE. Demo pack here.

 

[dojoteef]

Isn't that the same thing? Rolling 1/20 is 5%

Well not quite. You have a 5% chance to roll a 1 on a 20 sided die, but that doesn't equate directly to your percentage chance of success. For that you have to add in your base stat level. This means people have to calculate their percent chance of success each time; so you have to subtract your level from the level of the action you are trying to do and then take that difference and make a ratio. I know it is ridiculously easy and most people can run the numbers, but I can't tell you how many people I meet (even those that have attended college) that aren't analytically inclined and wouldn't know where to start to calculate the percentage, though if given the formula they can. Even if they can they might not want to because a lot of people feel uncomfortable doing mathematics and don't think that is part of an enjoyable time, which is in conflict with the ultimate point of playing a game: enjoyment! Though since everyone has heard of percentages (ever seen a weather forecast?) they tend to have a good ability to comprehend them, but might not know how to arrive at the values. RPGs shouldn't only be for those that have a penchant for math.

The problem here is that your chance to succeed isn't the same for all goals, or at least it shouldn't be. You may have an attack skill 50 which would mean 80% chance of hitting a rat and 10% chance of hitting an orc. So, percentages could be misleading. Same applies to locks, traps, and anything else.

You could easily set it up so that it wasn't misleading. You could say that the chance of success is that for an average target. Then you can give difficultly of said target: say it is greater than 65% of all targets. Now during character creation you can explain that all that is needed to find the percent chance of success against an actual target is to multiply the two numbers together and let them know that this will be done for them automatically with the result visible for them on the screen.

As for buying the ability to use different distributions for different stats, you might think that takes someone mathematically inclined, correct? Well it doesn't neccessarily. You can say it in plain english that anyone can understand. What does this specific distribution (or you can simply call it a feat) do? Well it makes it so that lower skill levels are just as effective as medium skill levels.

For anyone that actually cares about the mathematics behind the scenes you can give them the option to see those just like in Bioware games. This opens up cRPGs to a larger group of people who might feel intimidated by the complexity of the game or obscurity of the system, though it doesn't reduce the complexity it just reformulates it in a familiar way. So for everyone who bitches about cRPGs either going downhill or there not being enough cRPGs this would be a good thing. You get to keep the same level of complexity in the cRPGs and make it popular enough that more developers might be willing to make games in the genre, which would hopefully lead to more diverse types of cRPGs.


Wow, that really turned into a rant. :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

Even if they can they might not want to because a lot of people feel uncomfortable doing mathematics ...

That's too funny. Signature material.

...and don't think that is part of an enjoyable time, which is in conflict with the ultimate point of playing a game: enjoyment!

May I recommend a more mentally affordable game then for those people? I heard Dungeon Siege is quite good.

You could easily set it up so that it wasn't misleading. You could say that the chance of success is that for an average target.

What's an average target? RPGs usually feature impressive bestiaries and that would make any average ratings rather pointless.

For anyone that actually cares about the mathematics behind the scenes you can give them the option to see those just like in Bioware games. This opens up cRPGs to a larger group of people who might feel intimidated by the complexity of the game or obscurity of the system, though it doesn't reduce the complexity it just reformulates it in a familiar way.

Well, let's assume for a second that you know nothing about CRPGs and want to try one. What part of a game would be difficult for an average person to comprehend? You can play any game without paying any attention to stats by doing what's reasonable - increasing your primary skills. Take any game from Fallout to Diablo, you start a game, you pick a manner in which you want to play it: class/skills, assign some points and there you go. Chances are you'd survive the first few areas and will be able to level up once or twice. Then you put 2/3 of your points into your primary skills and 1/3 into some other skills, and the odds are that that would be enough to survive long enough to gain another level. Rinse and repeat.

 

[dojoteef]

Even if they can they might not want to because a lot of people feel uncomfortable doing mathematics ...

That's too funny. Signature material.

It might be funny, but it's the truth. If you don't believe me, take a look at my sig. The average person doesn't know real time from turn based. They don't want math or logic in games, they just want something fun to play. Popular games tend to be simple, so why not try to take away some of the barriers of the genre while still retaining as much complexity as the hardcore gamers want. You can see these artifical barriers in so many industries, it's ridiculous. Say for example the medical profession. If you went to the doctor regarding a rash and he asked you have you experienced any pruritus you would probably be utterly confused; had the doctor instead asked if you experienced severe itching you could easily understand the question. So for the medical profession a lot of the fear and aversion to it (i.e. an artificial barrier) is the use of complex medical jargon. For cRPGs it tends to be that the complexity is overwhelming. Why is it such a bad idea to try to keep that complexity so that it is still fun for diehard cRPG fans while reformulating the way things are stated so they seem less complex to the lay person; instead of saying "pruritus" you say "severe itching".

...and don't think that is part of an enjoyable time, which is in conflict with the ultimate point of playing a game: enjoyment!

May I recommend a more mentally affordable game then for those people? I heard Dungeon Siege is quite good.

Now you are just being derisive.

What's an average target? RPGs usually feature impressive bestiaries and that would make any average ratings rather pointless.

Wow thanks for helping me prove my point about mathematics. You can't even figure out how to take an average.

Well, let's assume for a second that you know nothing about CRPGs and want to try one. What part of a game would be difficult for an average person to comprehend? You can play any game without paying any attention to stats by doing what's reasonable - increasing your primary skills.

You take this way too lightly. The games that get played the most are those that are fun, but simple to comprehend. Take the popularity of FPS games. There is an initial learning curve for the controls, like any game. Beyond that it's point and shoot. There might be puzzles or other gameplay mechanisims, but the core aspect is very simple. The bigger the weapon the more damage it does. They are even sorted out for you by default; pressing "1" will give you the weakest weapon and "10" the most powerful. In order to get cRPGs to a larger audience you have to find out what sort of things deter these people from playing the games. You can easily find that out by talking to the average joe.

 

[Loof]

I do have a question for everyone regarding randomness in cRPGs. Why is it that people are so fixated on dice rolling? I can understand that for a PnP RPG, rolling dice can help make things easier to get things done, but why use that for cRPGs? There are plenty of other ways of introducing an element of randomness that might actually be even more intuitive; one example is using percentage chance of success. It's very similar to having a stat with a die roll associated with it, but it is easier for a player to visualize what the likelihood of success is. You could maybe even use different statistical distribution functions for different skills. You might even let the player use XP to "buy" the ability to use a better distribution function for a skill. If a character was low on strength, maybe you could change the distribution function for strength to a unifrom ratio distribution which would set most characters on an equal footing excepting only those of the highest strengths.

In general I thinkIi would avoid having different mechanics for different types of tasks as far as I could and instead try and use a core formula and vary the probablilitys of success by useing different stats and different targetnumbers.
I don't realy like precentage based systems because I feel that while they are great for average difficulty tasks they get clunky when you want to modify the difficulty or have oposed skillrolls.
But I agree with you about there not realy being a reason for using "dice" in a cRPG or showing dicerolls during gameplay. But this doesnt realy affect the way the coresystem would work just how you pressent the information to the user.
For instance you could easily use a random factor of say 1-357 with a bell curve distrubition of results, this doesnt correspond to any dicecombination I know of... but im pretty sure that if i realy wanted to find a combination of dicerolls that has about that spread of results it would be posible to find one. So if you call it a diceroll or a random factor is realy just semantics.
But if you want to have a interface where you show as much as posible of the behind teh scenes workings to the user "rolls" of those magnitudes aren't very suitable since they are hard to get an intuitive feel for. So indirectly you are limiting your choices when it comes to mechanics designt by the desision of letting the use see this kind of info.

So across the board I would say that its better not to show the user the factors in your system and instead just tell them the results of their actions. And instead present as much as you want of yoru system in an apendix somewhere. I think most users will get a pretty good feel for how hard different tasks are by just playing the game, and if they realy need more they can look up the details in said apendix. Now everyone should be reasonably happy :D

Hmm this post got pretty rambly ... ohh well hope you got the gist of what im trying to say...
Loof

 

[dojoteef]

I don't realy like precentage based systems because I feel that while they are great for average difficulty tasks they get clunky when you want to modify the difficulty or have oposed skillrolls.

Can you explain why you have this belief? The problem is I can't understand in what way the percentages are awkward or cumbersome. Where is the difficulty in their use?

 

[Vault Dweller]

It might be funny, but it's the truth. If you don't believe me...

Unfortunately, I believe you.

Popular games tend to be simple, so why not try to take away some of the barriers of the genre while still retaining as much complexity as the hardcore gamers want.

That's where I disagree with you (see the last paragraph of my prev post). The complexity of numbers in CRPG is a myth. When I played BG2, for example, I didn't think much of THAC0. Why? First, you can't change it, it's automatic, second, the encounters in 90% of RPGs are designed for your current level. So, if you play a game, and see some baddies, you can rest assured that your abilities are good enough to handle them.

For cRPGs it tends to be that the complexity is overwhelming.

What complexity? You get some points, you save your game, you distribute them reasonably, go and try to kill something else or do something you couldn't do before, if you fail, reload and redistribute the points. What could be more simple than trial and error?

What's an average target? RPGs usually feature impressive bestiaries and that would make any average ratings rather pointless.

Wow thanks for helping me prove my point about mathematics. You can't even figure out how to take an average.

Well, in case you are right, and I did prove your point, it also proves that your concerns are invalid, as I'm an avid gamer and my inability to handle them numbers didn't stop me from enjoying games. However, my point was that knowing the average is pointless in RPGs because the number would be too abstract.

You take this way too lightly. The games that get played the most are those that are fun, but simple to comprehend. Take the popularity of FPS games.

Well, CRPGs are the most complicated games, but not because of some numbers, but because of decision-making (I'm talking about proper CRPGs, of course). I have talked to many people who like games, but for some reasons don't like CRPGs. As they explain, it's the decisions that scare them. Things like what faction to join, what to tell that guy, and most importantly keeping track of all the things to do confuse the fuck out of them as they expect to do the "right thing". Then they reach for strategy guides and walkthroughs, playing games by numbers (note teh irony ). Many people also say that they have only 20 minutes a day to play and it would take them 10 minutes to remember all the things they were supposed to do in a game and by the time they do the "chores" and get to fighting, the time's up. Comparing to that, FPS or RTS are instant fun. You load the game and play right away.

 

[dojoteef]

The complexity of numbers in CRPG is a myth.

I have to disagree with you here. In character creation or leveling up there are lots of numbers that don't help a person directly correlate the number to how it affects the game. If someone who isn't an avid cRPG player plays BG2 for the first time and sees all these numbers such as THAC0 they are going to be confused. What is the number? What does it do? How do I change it? It might seem surprising, but for a lot of people when they start seeing numbers and calculations their brain pretty much shuts down. I've got a degree in mathematics and I've helped lots of people with their math classes. Often times they can understand the concepts and follow an example, but if you just give them a problem to solve they start becoming bewildered. That's not an experience that I think most people want to have while trying to play a game.

What complexity? You get some points, you save your game, you distribute them reasonably, go and try to kill something else or do something you couldn't do before, if you fail, reload and redistribute the points. What could be more simple than trial and error?

You fail to realize that not everyone understands to do this and if they do they might tend to get frustrated because they can't figure out why what they are doing isn't working. The casual gamer is really what drives the gaming economy. They make the developers the most money and that's why lots of games seem to be dumbed down. Why is it so hard to understand that displaying the information in a more friendly might be a method to garner more gamers who are interested in cRPGs while not reducing the complexity of the game? I mean most cRPGs have very intuitive user interfaces: point, click, choose an action. The user interfaces give them a leg up for allowing casual gamers to play; why nullify that benefit by baffling the players with incomprehensible numbers.

However, my point was that knowing the average is pointless in RPGs because the number would be too abstract.

It isn't too abstract using the percentage and statistical distribution method that I mentioned. In fact it makes complete sense. It's no different than the idea of THAC0. It gives you a frame of reference. For example if you are trying to hit someone with a weapon. They might have a percent change to dodge, a percent chance to deflect the blow, etc. The thing is, when you combine all that information together you come out with one value: the percent of incoming attacks that they can avoid. You then find the distribution of enemies compared to their ability to avoid incoming attacks and voila, you can get the average, and it's meaningful to boot!

Well, CRPGs are the most complicated games, but not because of some numbers, but because of decision-making (I'm talking about proper CRPGs, of course). I have talked to many people who like games, but for some reasons don't like CRPGs. As they explain, it's the decisions that scare them.

Yes the decisions scare them. I completely agree; that's what I've been trying to explain. They make some decision at the character screen and they don't know how that's going to affect their game especially when the numbers are difficult to attribute to the actual actions that are being executed. If those decisions can be made a bit more straightforward, then you have reduced some of the dread of making bad decisions.

Then they reach for strategy guides and walkthroughs, playing games by numbers (note teh irony )

This directly relates to my above paragraph. They play it "by the numbers" because it reduces the complexity of the game for them. They now don't have to worry about making sense of what the numbers do in order to make the "right" decision at the character screen. They can just use the numbers that the strategy guide tells them to without fear of making a mistake when distributing points. So that causes no irony in my argument; you must have been noting the irony in your own position.




Heck, with ideas like these I should probably become a game designer for Gas Powered Games, huh?

 

[Vault Dweller]

In character creation or leveling up there are lots of numbers that don't help a person directly correlate the number to how it affects the game.

Disagree, but let's take it step by step. BG2: you start the game and you have to create a character. You have 6 attributes that are well explained in the manual. You roll your character, pick a class, weapons/spells, and that's pretty much it. With the exception of thieves who have to distribute some points, the rest is automatic. You level up, you get what you are supposed to get, add an occasional point to weapon skills, and that's it. The only choices that matter are stats and class.

Let's take Fallout now. That's a bit more complex, but not a rocket science. You choose stats and distribute skill points. As complicated as that sounds, you follow some common sense and put a lot of points into at least one combat skill and take it from there. How do you know how much is enough? You don't, you experiment, and you increase your primary skills until you feel that you can handle everything with ease.

Overall, I don't feel that the numbers can affect someone's perception or enjoyment of the game. Sure, there are some people who can use their uber arcane "knovlidge" to make some interesting characters like my all rogue ToEE party, but I don't see any problems playing vanilla characters.

If someone who isn't an avid cRPG player plays BG2 for the first time and sees all these numbers such as THAC0 they are going to be confused. What is the number? What does it do? How do I change it?

It's nothing. It's like one of those official forms with an "internal use only" areas. Once you realize that you can't change it, after you click on it long enough , you should be fine, unless it's of those folks with obsessive-compulsive disorders. So, you keep playing and if you find a +2 sword, I'm sure that you figure out that you should probably dump your -10 stick of crappyness and replace it with the sword.

Often times they can understand the concepts and follow an example, but if you just give them a problem to solve they start becoming bewildered.

Poor dumb bastards. Vote for Assisted Suicide program today!

You fail to realize that not everyone understands to do this and if they do they might tend to get frustrated because they can't figure out why what they are doing isn't working.

You have to be more specific here. What is it exactly you believe they would have problems with? Show me the steps.

The casual gamer is really what drives the gaming economy.

No doubt. Too bad they are so fucking stupid.

Why is it so hard to understand that displaying the information in a more friendly might be a method to garner more gamers who are interested in cRPGs

What about Diablo 2? It was very popular, and it had some abstract numbers like attack 800. Wtf is 800? They did show what your chance to hit a monster you are fighting with is, but that was hardly helpful. Your chance to hit a zombie is 95%, your chance to hit a dude in a next area is 30%. Then you've had all those skills that increased your abilities, and in some cases (paladin) you could have two active abilities at the same time. Add to that items and their effects and different combinations of everything and you get the most number-crunching heavy game evar. Yet it didn't suffer from the lack of attention from casual gamers, did it? So that's another proof that what really turns the morons off is the decisions, consequences, and other crap. MW is another fine example.

It isn't too abstract using the percentage and statistical distribution method that I mentioned. In fact it makes complete sense. It's no different than the idea of THAC0.

True, and considering how pointless THAC0 is for mathematically challenged, it's the same thing.

The thing is, when you combine all that information together you come out with one value: the percent of incoming attacks that they can avoid. You then find the distribution of enemies compared to their ability to avoid incoming attacks and voila, you can get the average, and it's meaningful to boot!

I thought that combining all that information ( I sense some number crunching) was a huge obstacle that you were trying to remove? I don't really see how that is different from combining THAC0 with AC and figuring out what you need to roll. I find that many feel that the dice are friendlier than percentages. Tell a guy that he has a 67% chance to hit or that he needs to roll anything higher than 7.

They make some decision at the character screen and they don't know how that's going to affect their game especially when the numbers are difficult to attribute to the actual actions that are being executed.

Like what? I almost repeated what I wrote earlier trying to show that there is nothing to choose, so you have to give me some examples here.

 

[Balor]

*Peeks in* *Goes square-eyed*
And THESE people accuse me of being offtopic!
(Hmm, I could have ended my post right here, but since we already have one Volo already... and it's not about TB anymore...)
I, too, have opinion that dice have no place in CRPGs (Dice must die! Pun intended). It's a helpless rudiment from P&P - why cling to it?
However, percentile system is also not 'all time favorite', while it is understandable for everyone (and btw, roll higher then 7 on D10, and 30% chance are absolutely equal in terms of understanding... I'd even say that percents are easier since much more common in RL, unless you are a professional craps player, and I doubt that there are a lot of those around.), can still be too limiting. E.g., what’s the chance of MISSING someone at point-blank range, with victim taken by surprise, and you being an expert marksman? Not absolute 0, of course, but much less then 1%. Those critical hits and misses are utter BS in terms of statistics - because taken 'out of blue'. Fallout included too, btw. That 'wrought in iron' 5% miss chance - while, rofl, you could have NEGATIVE chance to hit, got me really pissed sometimes, when I missed point-blank range, at helpless target, with me having really good stats. Dust in my eyes? Fine, but not 5% of the time. That's simply silly. And balancing it by, say, giving 5% solid to hit chance is even sillier, since shooting someone dodgy, from great distance, with crappy weapon and sucky skills, again, will result is, again, non - 0, but still much less then 1% hit rate.

 

[dojoteef]

You know what Vault Dweller, I was midway done with writing responses to your last post and I realized how pointless it is. I have explained many times in many ways why people find the mathematics to be a sore spot for them, but you have repeatedly stated that you just don't think that it is. There probably isn't a person who owns a video gaming system (pc, console, handheld, or otherwise) that doesn't understand what a percentage is, but for the same people having to understand a system of dice rolling with different sided die, different number of dice, etc is more to try to comprehend while it equates to the same thing.

We can go back and forth on this all week, but until you start believing that lots of people are mystified by mathematics (which I'm surprised you don't believe considering how dumb you think people are) I'll never be able to make a point that you "understand".

What exactly is your aversion to doing a system by percentages? If it's as easy for you as a dice rolling system, then why knock it so much, especially if it might lead to more exposure for the cRPG market by seemingly lowering the barrier of complexity, which would hopefully increase diversity and the number of games available.

And THESE people accuse me of being offtopic!

I'm sorry Balor if it seems that the thread has gone off topic. I started the thread in order to glean information through a critical discourse with seasoned cRPGers on a TB RPG system that I'm working on for a mod that I'm making. After it seemed I had gathered enough information on the first question I decided to ask another question about randomness and the use of dice. Like I said it's all to help me gather more insight so I can use it for cRPG system I'm working on. Maybe I should have started a new thread, but I figured I'd just keep it in this thread.

 

[Sarvis]

You know what Vault Dweller, I was midway done with writing responses to your last post and I realized how pointless it is. I have explained many times in many ways why people find the mathematics to be a sore spot for them, but you have repeatedly stated that you just don't think that it is.

Yeah, he's like that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You know what Vault Dweller, I was midway done with writing responses to your last post and I realized how pointless it is. I have explained many times in many ways why people find the mathematics to be a sore spot for them, but you have repeatedly stated that you just don't think that it is.

No, you didn't really explain why, you stated that they have a problem, explained that whole fear of numbers things, but didn't pointed out where. I gave you several examples ranging from D2 to BG2 that cast some doubt on your theory. That's it. If you don't wish to argue with me, say so.

There probably isn't a person who owns a video gaming system (pc, console, handheld, or otherwise) that doesn't understand what a percentage is, but for the same people having to understand a system of dice rolling with different sided die, different number of dice, etc is more to try to comprehend while it equates to the same thing.

Is that a fact? First, you assume that everyone likes percentages, then you assume that dice rolls are harder to comprehend then percentages. I'd like to note that I prefer percentages, but being a good host, I'm entertaining you by participating in this discussion and helping you to work on your points :wink:

We can go back and forth on this all week, but until you start believing that lots of people are mystified by mathematics (which I'm surprised you don't believe considering how dumb you think people are) I'll never be able to make a point that you "understand".

People are dumb, I agree. I just don't think that one particular system would be more preferable and solve more problem then the other. Still, some examples would have been nice.

What exactly is your aversion to doing a system by percentages?

None whatsoever!

...especially if it might lead to more exposure for the cRPG market by seemingly lowering the barrier of complexity, which would hopefully increase diversity and the number of games available.

That is the biggest assumption I've ever seen in my life.

 

[Surlent]

It's not the complexity of the game itself.
It's just when a person comes home, he/she wants to just relax and take a beer.
For some people (or for many people as dojoteef said) that means zero math, no derivate, no matrix functions, no Fourier series, no numerical analysis, no probabilty theory, no transforms.
But that's where Dungeon Siege comes in.

As said for hardcore crpg vets this seem as joke, as we are already so used to calculating basic stuff as hit rates and stat placement.
But for casual player, their concept of fun is probably something else like watching pretty graphix.

 

[Vault Dweller]

For some people (or for many people as dojoteef said) that means zero math, no derivate, no matrix functions, no Fourier series, no numerical analysis, no probabilty theory, no transforms.

But nothing like that is required. You can play many games without being concerned too much or at all about numbers. Show me a game where you HAVE to actively think of numbers, where you have to multiply, add, and do all kinda other crazy things.

 

[Surlent]

Yeah, you could play BG without thinking much numbers.
Come to think of it, not many games require you to take a look at the figures.
Just replace new items with the old ones and you're mostly set.
Use special skills that make the biggest explosion and you do fine.
And many games nowadays have premade characters.

Unless you count hitpoints and calculating healing. That's always present, but really not much of a hassle.

Then it falls to the presentation, just taking a look to a huge list of stats makes commoner feel sick with the game.

 

[sInfernal]

Yeah, you could play BG without thinking much numbers.
Come to think of it, not many games require you to take a look at the figures.
Just replace new items with the old ones and you're mostly set.
Use special skills that make the biggest explosion and you do fine.
And many games nowadays have premade characters.

Unless you count hitpoints and calculating healing. That's always present, but really not much of a hassle.

Then it falls to the presentation, just taking a look to a huge list of stats makes commoner feel sick with the game.

Perhaps, but if you're like me, you'd always be looking at the AC, the THAC0, the damage resistance, etc.

Which is one of my main dislikes about those RPGs, like BG or NWN or Diablo, with dozens of items to buy at each shop - I get over-anal about getting the "right" stats. I enjoy much more when the main way to get good equipment is through loot. Maybe it still ends up into a number calculation, but at least I'm doing something like fighting or stealing or maybe even finishing a quest for a quest reward for the item(s) instead of sitting at the inn/weapon-shop/item-store for more than 10 minutes (approximation).

But yes, I know it's probably fine to play unlike the way I do.

 

[Loof]

Can you explain why you have this belief? The problem is I can't understand in what way the percentages are awkward or cumbersome. Where is the difficulty in their use?

Hmm well i think the root of it comes from PnP and not computer games so it's part gut feeling and part reasoning. But i will try to explain.

That precentages are very easy to understand I agree with, my problem with them isn't that they are confusing. It instead has to do with that its harder to make a good system with variable dificulty numbers for a precentage sytem than for instance a (stat + skill + random factor) vs (difficulty) system. But since you are interested in CRPG specific ideas i will admit that this isn't as big a problem as it is in PnP. But a problem that I think will remain even when you let a computer handle the numbers is what to do for resisted skills.

Since we are talking combat mechanics take for instance the simple process of giving this anoying prick right here a right hook. In a system based on targetnumbers I could simply let the bad guys (agility + suitable combat skill + exta modifyers to get balance right) make up the difficuly for my brawling skill check and the problem is solved.
If im useinga precentage system on the other hand im trying to roll under my chance to hit and I don't have a difficulty number at all soIi have to modify the skill instead of the difficulty, this in itself is in my opinion both harder to get right and less understandable for the player. The "normal" solution to this problem in PnP is to use active parrying of attacks , which works pretty well but I dont like it since it 1: requires the oponent to take actions during the players turn and 2: requires a second skill "roll" and a margin of success comparison.

The end result in my opinion feels clunky...
Don't think i can explain it better then that (especialy not when half drunk as now). If you wan't clarification on any of this just let me know and i will give it a shot when im more alert :wink:

Loof

 

[dojoteef]

First, you assume that everyone likes percentages, then you assume that dice rolls are harder to comprehend then percentages.

Okay I see where you might have gotten confused with my argument. Maybe I should clear it up a bit. I don't assume everyone likes percentages. I assume everyone is famaliar with them and can immediately understand a percentage chance of success. On the other hand when you have a system, and it has mulitple different dice that can be used depending on the situation, then you give them all these stats and numbers that unless you think about their interaction carefully you can't determine what they do, you make many people confused.

What does this agility rating mean to my character. Sure you could read the manual, goof around a bit then reload, etc, but for someone that only has half an hour to an hour to play at any one time and is only looking to play the game, not do reading, or guessing on just how many points to put in a skill or stat to get a specific outcome, these systems tend to be overly complex for them.

I'd like to note that I prefer percentages, but being a good host, I'm entertaining you by participating in this discussion and helping you to work on your points :wink:

Why thank you for you considerate nature. You knew that I wanted an argument so you gave it to me. :mrgreen: Though if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing then I'm not so happy. I do have a more ulterior goal, I want to know what people think of different systems, and what systems they like.

I just don't think that one particular system would be more preferable and solve more problem then the other. Still, some examples would have been nice.

I have given you countless examples, but I guess you are just glossing over them. Instead of having the interaction of a number of different skills and stats shown, why not streamline those stats by combining them and turning them into percentage chance of success? Here's a quote from an earlier post of mine:

For example if you are trying to hit someone with a weapon. They might have a percent change to dodge, a percent chance to deflect the blow, etc. The thing is, when you combine all that information together you come out with one value: the percent of incoming attacks that they can avoid. You then find the distribution of enemies compared to their ability to avoid incoming attacks and voila, you can get the average, and it's meaningful to boot!

So either you are not reading my posts carefully, or you are just trying to be contrary. I have no problem with you finding something wrong with the argument and picking it apart, but overlooking it and then saying I haven't explained my case is quite irksome.

...especially if it might lead to more exposure for the cRPG market by seemingly lowering the barrier of complexity, which would hopefully increase diversity and the number of games available.

That is the biggest assumption I've ever seen in my life.

I think you're being a bit overly hyperbolic with that statement. Look at the fact that games like Dungeon Siege have sold more copies than most other tradtional style cRPGs that use incomprehensible systems. True Dungeon Siege doesn't use percentages, but they use a simple forumla. If you want to use an item you have to have a certain number of points in a stat. In order to get a certain number of points in a stat you have to use the stat. The problem is, it's too over simplified. GPG knows that, and that's why they are trying to go for a different but probably just as simple approach with Dungeon Siege II.

People don't want to have to figure all sorts of things out, like what is the best weapon to use, what is the best skill to have, etc. and there are many developers out there that understand this fact. When GPG mentioned the fact that it's going to automatically tell the user what the best weapon that they can use is, people here at the Codex had a hissy fit. To quote you: "I guess weapon statistics are too complicated for some people to read." Well in truth it isn't, it's just taking more of the drudgery out of the game. Instead of having to look through all the loot you have and compare stats (bore!), you get to instantly know what weapon you were likely to choose anyway. Now maybe you wanted a weapon that did fire damage, or cold damage, or whatever but the most powerful weapon you have doesn't have that feature. Well you are still free to choose that weapon over the highlighted one, but for those people that just want to have fun and remove the boring bullshit I think the weapon highlighting thing is very useful.

People aren't interested in making complex choices for things they think are mundane. In other words, if they want to use the best weapon, they don't want to have to constantly keep checking statistics and so forth to find if they are currently equipping the best weapon or not.

Just look at console/Japanese style RPGs. They tend to be more streamlined, with fewer choices because it allows people to experience the parts of the game that they find most interesting: the character and story interaction. Unfortunately those type of games don't tend to give you much freedom in meaningful choices (multiple ways to complete quests, multiple endings, etc). And before I get bashed for saying this, it tends to be true for the majority of those games, but not for all.

So if you could streamline a lot of the "complexity" while still keeping those things that we a love in a good cRPG, then why not. Maybe some people like having a huge array of numbers and stats, but I know that many people including msyelf don't. They are needlessly convoluted, especially if you can take any one of those systems and reformulate it using percentages in the method that I described. The only extra work that would be required is to make a database of weapons, traps, enemies, stats, etc so that you can calculate the distributions. Then for any action on a specific target you can let the player know their chance of success. This system can also be thought of as more real to life because when people evaluate a task before doing it, they tend to formulate an idea of their chance of success and the length of time to achieve the result based on previous experience. True, people don't think of it in terms of specific percentages, but they do think of it comparatively.



Another long spiel ended, whew!

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't assume everyone likes percentages. I assume everyone is famaliar with them and can immediately understand a percentage chance of success. On the other hand when you have a system, and it has mulitple different dice that can be used depending on the situation...

I'm pretty sure that people are familiar with dice as well, thanks to casinos and games. They may estimate the odds of rolling 15 + incorrectly, but then again they may misunderstand 50% too. (some people think that 50/50 means that you get lucky every other time, which is, of course, incorrect). Comparing to percentages, dice could be easier to read. D4 = a random number from 1 to 4. Also, the only die a casual player should be somewhat concerned about in DnD-like CRPGs is D20.

What does this agility rating mean to my character. Sure you could read the manual, goof around a bit then reload, etc, but for someone that only has half an hour to an hour to play at any one time and is only looking to play the game, not do reading, or guessing on just how many points to put in a skill or stat to get a specific outcome, these systems tend to be overly complex for them.

And how do you suggest to remedy that particular situation? Agility is a stat. It has a numeric value. Neither dice nor percentages would work there. You can't (or at least you shouldn't) attach a to hit value to it, because that's the skill's job. So, of course, creating a character is a tricky time-consuming business. I spent 2.5 hours making my first satisfactory ToEE party (and no, I didn't roll, I prefer PB systems), so, of course, a casual player wouldn't want to or be able to spend so much time before he even starts a game, but the only solution here is to dumb the game down so that neither stats nor skills matter that much.

Why thank you for you considerate nature. You knew that I wanted an argument so you gave it to me. :mrgreen: Though if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing then I'm not so happy. I do have a more ulterior goal, I want to know what people think of different systems, and what systems they like.

I'm arguing because I see some questionable assumptions. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not arguing to prove your "wrong!", but to discuss these assumptions with you.

I have given you countless examples, but I guess you are just glossing over them....

You gave examples to explain where you are going with that, but not why, if you see what I mean. You've stated that there is a problem but were too generic. Here is a quote from your post above as an example: "On the other hand when you have a system, and it has mulitple different dice that can be used depending on the situation..."

What exactly are you talking about here? I'm somewhat familiar with DnD, yet I can't figure out what you meant by that. What die? What is the nature of a problem? What kinda calculations a person is required to do? Why? etc.

Instead of having the interaction of a number of different skills and stats shown, why not streamline those stats by combining them and turning them into percentage chance of success?

It would have been a perfect solution if you didn't have to apply other modifiers to it to reflect different "difficulties levels". Then again, you don't have to calculate anything in games if you don't want to (which is my main point), so it doesn't really matter if skills presented by percentages or plain numbers. More calculations are required anyway, but it's the computer that does number-crunching.

I have no problem with you finding something wrong with the argument and picking it apart, but overlooking it and then saying I haven't explained my case is quite irksome.

See above

I think you're being a bit overly hyperbolic with that statement. Look at the fact that games like Dungeon Siege have sold more copies than most other tradtional style cRPGs that use incomprehensible systems.

Diablo 2 sold a lot of copies too, yet it had a system that required some serious number-crunching by players. You had to compare and analyze different skills combos (builds) augmented by specific items that could increase the build's strength and/or cover its weaknesses. Comparing to D2, many systems look rather simplistic, don't you think? You seemed to ignore that fact in your arguments.

<Dungeon Siege related stuff>

It would have made a strong point, if Diablo 2 success didn't prove that point wrong.

Just look at console/Japanese style RPGs. They tend to be more streamlined, with fewer choices because it allows people to experience the parts of the game that they find most interesting: the character and story interaction. Unfortunately those type of games don't tend to give you much freedom in meaningful choices (multiple ways to complete quests, multiple endings, etc). And before I get bashed for saying this, it tends to be true for the majority of those games, but not for all.

With that point I can easily agree. It's not the number-related decisions that keep players away from complex RPGs, but situation-related decisions. The games that you mentioned are linear. You don't need to make meaningful choices ('cause what if I make teh wrong one?!!!), you just go with the flow, from one cutscene to another.

So if you could streamline a lot of the "complexity" while still keeping those things that we a love in a good cRPG, then why not.

I think it's impossible because the only way to make a mass-market friendly RPG is not to make easy-to-read numbers, but to make easy to follow, easy to understand, linear gameplay filled with everyone's favourite cliche heroes and situations, and meaningless quests to level up. See MW, KOTOR, and BG. What do they all have in common?

 

[Deacdo]

I don't see what's so realistic about having several characters hack away at each other as the player watches their health drop and attends to the game only to use a healing potion.

The abstraction that turn-based games have allows gameplay of much greater depth than any real time game would offer. Turn based games allow the player to use a variety of skills, items and tactical maneuvers that would otherwise be too cumbersome to do in any sort of real-time environment. Pause and play games like Baldur's Gate 2, KOTOR and Hearts of Iron 2 allow a degree of complexity with action queues, but are far too frantic in comparison to turn-based games for most players to firmly grasp.

While I agree with pretty much all of that I'd like to add a few more important bits: With real-time and real-time with pause combat (particularly small scale) it is all about reacting. You made the wrong decision? Pause and change it. The enemy did something smart for a change? Pause and adjust. There's no real tactical depth to that. What I love about TBed combat is that you actually have to live with your decisions. You screwed up? Tough shit, you're going to get smoked during the enemy's turn. Chosing the right commands/tactics actually matters. You never get that in real-time combat.

As for realism, who cares? These are games. Believeability is all that matters to me, and even that has to be taken into context.

 

[Human Shield]

Did anyone look at the rule set I mentioned?

Attributes go from 0 - 6. 2 is human average, 6 is human maximum.
Skills go up from 0. 2 is general knowledge.

For doing things you roll 1d10, add one attribute and one skill for the task (first aid+int, gun+dex for shooting, gun+perception for aiming). 9 and above is success. Is that harder then % levels?

 

[dojoteef]

And how do you suggest to remedy that particular situation? Agility is a stat. It has a numeric value. Neither dice nor percentages would work there.

Wrong, you create a distribution for the stats as well. Everything number in the game has a distribution. You have exactly average agility... what would that relate to in numbers? 50%.

So, of course, creating a character is a tricky time-consuming business.

Yes it can be, but developers have come up with numerous ways to get around it, though they might be a bit imperfect. Just look at pre-generated character builds and answering questions to determine your character stats.

the only solution here is to dumb the game down so that neither stats nor skills matter that much.

It doesn't seem to be the only solution. See above.

Here is a quote from your post above as an example: "On the other hand when you have a system, and it has mulitple different dice that can be used depending on the situation..."

What exactly are you talking about here? I'm somewhat familiar with DnD, yet I can't figure out what you meant by that. What die? What is the nature of a problem? What kinda calculations a person is required to do? Why? etc.

First of all many PnP RPGs use different sided dice for different calculations, and since developers seem to try to rip PnP rules a lot of the time, it's a relevant issue. Though let's consider what I said and we can use DnD since you are somewhat familiar with it. Let's look at loot, there are different dice used for the weapons. Some are d6, d8, d10, etc. Then you have different numbers of dice being used for those, then you can have modifiers like +1, +2, etc. Well, that means you have to calculations each time you want to compare weapons, and I guanrantee that many people would get confused determining things such as whether a 2d6 + 1 weapon was better than a 1d10 + 2. I mean heck the 1d10 weapon has bigger numbers, it must be better!

More calculations are required anyway, but it's the computer that does number-crunching.

It is the user that has to make sense of those calculated numbers in order to progress the character though.

Diablo 2 sold a lot of copies too, yet it had a system that required some serious number-crunching by players.

You make it sound as if Diablo 2 had such a difficult system to master. In fact it was no more complicated for most people than the original really. If I could use Dungeon Siege as an example; Dungeon Siege decided that when cloning Diablo style gameplay that they needed to remove the need for different skills and abilities (I guess because they thought it was too complex?) and just focus on weapons. If you remember what I said, determining which weapon to use had two factors. First you found all the weapons you had that you could currently equip, then you determined which was the best. Then you might look at those weapons you don't have the skill to equip and determine which one you wanted to be able to use and you would work on using the skills required to increase your stats so that you can use the weapon.

Well, what does that have to do with Diablo 2? Thing is, determining which ability to choose next from a tree is no more difficult. You look at what you want to get (and with the Diablos there is no really picking a skill that can't be used "to kill stuff", so the choice in all honesty becomes nothing more than choosing the skill you think might be the coolest to use) and you determine which stats you have to increase in order to get those abilities. It's not a terribly complicated system and it works well for anyone to be able to understand: keep increasing the numbers. While that is an intuitive system I believe the system I propose can be just as intuitive. Maybe I shouldn't state that the system I propose is the end all, better than anything around type system, but I think it has equal merit.

The thing is, at least with the system I have, you don't constantly just keep increasing numbers, because in many situations it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially in social situations. It's highly unlikely that the people you meet later on in the game are going to be SO much more sophisticated that they can ferret out intentions, call bluffs, etc so well that you need 20 times the number of points in those social skills than you needed in the begining of the game.. That's why a system that uses statistical distributions could likely overcome that problem with a Diablo-like design.

You had to compare and analyze different skills combos (builds) augmented by specific items that could increase the build's strength and/or cover its weaknesses. Comparing to D2, many systems look rather simplistic, don't you think? You seemed to ignore that fact in your arguments.

<Dungeon Siege related stuff>

It would have made a strong point, if Diablo 2 success didn't prove that point wrong.

See above.

It's not the number-related decisions that keep players away from complex RPGs, but situation-related decisions. The games that you mentioned are linear. You don't need to make meaningful choices ('cause what if I make teh wrong one?!!!), you just go with the flow, from one cutscene to another.

I don't totally disagree with this statement, I just disagree with the fact that it is the only thing that keep people from playing more involved RPGs. I think it also has to do with convoluted rule systems.

I think it's impossible because the only way to make a mass-market friendly RPG is not to make easy-to-read numbers, but to make easy to follow, easy to understand, linear gameplay filled with everyone's favourite cliche heroes and situations, and meaningless quests to level up. See MW, KOTOR, and BG. What do they all have in common?

As a person who has a degree minor in psychology and a degree in mathematics, I find that to be bogus. First of all in mathematics there is the concept of simplification of the output. I can give you a complicated equation, that when simplified is short, concise, and easy to read. This might not be the case for all equations, but I think it is possible to do with cRPGs. If a small amount of complexity must be removed in order for a more elegant design, then I think it's a good idea. See V:tM rules compared to D&D rules.

The next thing is the idea that people need extremely simplistic information. That's not true. They simply need the information presented to them in a familiar fashion, thus my idea of using percentages. For the idea behind this concept, see the Wason selection task.



Well anyway, I think I've recieved as much input as I need in this circumstance. I await your response to this post Vault Dweller, but unless more people join in on the discussion and voice opinions I think I'm pretty much through with discussing merits. That is unless you are willing to try and find a different point of view as to some problems with my system, take on the stance, and argue from that stance.



P.S. Oh and a word of advice, enough with the asking for specific examples. I can see if it is a complicated idea that is being expressed, but when the idea is rather straightforward your constant excuse of "I need an example" sounds more like you trying to stall an argument because you are unable to come up with a good response rather than a genuine lack of comprehension. For example with the D&D rules and the use of multiple dice. If you have played even a single D&D game (which I know you have), then you obviously know what I'm talking about, I don't have to explain that there are multiple dice in use and that in order to determine certain information from the different dice a person is required to use mathematics. That's my two cents anyway.

 

[dojoteef]

Did anyone look at the rule set I mentioned?

Attributes go from 0 - 6. 2 is human average, 6 is human maximum.
Skills go up from 0. 2 is general knowledge.

For doing things you roll 1d10, add one attribute and one skill for the task (first aid+int, gun+dex for shooting, gun+perception for aiming). 9 and above is success. Is that harder then % levels?

Okay, the problems I see with it compared to statistical distributions and percentages is that it isn't as straightforward. For example with the attributes. Most people would think that in a range from 0-6, 3 would be the average. While if you used a distribution, 2 could still be the average, but it would be represented by 50%. All that changes is that when you level up, the number of experience points required to increase your percentage is based on the distribution function. Same applies with skills.

Next it seems like there might be some convoluted rules in play. For example to determine if you hit someone with a gun you require the use of three things: gun, perception, and dex. You have to aim and then you have to shoot. It might be more realistic (though from shooting handguns for a while it seems that those two things seem to increase hand in hand, so there doesn't seem much point in differentiating), but the question of focus is on fun and ease of use. I could of course be taking your example too literally, I'm not certain. Maybe you were just giving examples that you made up, but not might actually be in use, if so I take what I said about convoluted rules back.

I think the system sounds like a nice one, I'm just positing a different way of doing things. Why do it this way on a computer, just because PnP systems tend to use dice? There are probably even more intuitive ways that haven't been discussed yet. Of course, one can never know if they are right about such things until it is actually implemented and tested out by the general public. I just wanted to get different view points in order to more refine my thoughts and find any limitations in the system that might need to be overcome.

 

[Hajo]

I like discrete timing systems. Each action takes a while. Your next chance to act takes place a current_time plus action_delay

This gives a natural order of actions and can include different base speeds of PCs.

Depedning if the game pauses hard to get player input for the next action, or just polls upon each chance to act, this appears to be realtime or turn based on the user surface.

Hajo, could I get some more clarification on the this discrete timing system? On the surface it seems like an interesting system, but with further scrutiny it really sounds like real time or real time with pause (with maybe customizable pause?). Why I say that is, in real time you have the same sort of thing. When you execute an action you can't execute the next action until the previous action is complete; the animations might seem to be acting contrary to this if you change the action midway through an animation but if you do that the effect for the first action is never applied (this keeps someone who can click faster from being able to do more damage).

So my question is, how exactly does that differ from RT? And if there is an auto pause how does it differ from RT w/P? I mean I could see a mechanism of doing that by slowing the game down once you enter combat, but it has many downsides. Depending on how slow you make the game time you might run into problems. If you slow it down less the person who can access the attacks, spells, etc the quickest has an advantage. If you slow it down more then some people might not want to watch waiting for the slow-motion animations to finish. That's why there is the option in TB combat to have all the enemies do their attacks at the same time.

Please inform me if I'm misunderstanding the system you mentioned.

I've been away a few days, I hope you don't mind my late response.

The system differs from RT in the regard that the time isn't continuous. The system differs from TB in regard, that between turns variable amounts of time can pass.

I've posted this from a technical point of view: there is a system that can you give realtime as well as turn based behaviour. This is handy for developers becuase they don't have to make a decision and stick to that decision throughout the course of the project. The system is flexible in it's appearance. But it's also be handy for the player, becuase the system can be made customizeable on user level, allwong the player to choose his/her favorite setting. I know "one size fits all" is a lie, but this system is clsoe to "one size fits all" in regard of TB vs RT - you can use it for a large variety of applications.

I'll try to elabotate the details:

Actually there isn't a time at all. There is a queue of actions. The game engine takes the next action from the queue and executes it. Actions can be AI actions as well as getting input from the player.

After executing the action, the delay until the next action of the actor is calculated (this is the time for performing the current action, e.g. swinging a weapon), and a new action for this actor is put into the queue. The queue is ordered by ascending time.

In between actions, the time jumps. The game doesn't perform any calculations then.

While an action that requires input from the player is executed, the game engine has two options:

1) wait for input (endlessly)
2) poll for input

In case 1, the system appears as a turn based system. Once a player input action is taken from the queue, it's the players turn, and the game waits for him to make a decision what to do. The fine point is that in between players turns a varaible amount of time can pass - the exact amount of time depends on the former player action.

In case 2, the system appears to be realtime. The player has a chance to give input, if he doesn't a new chance for input is put in the queue (his next chance for input) and the game continues to execute the other actions from the queue. Depending on the amount of time the game spends polling for input, this can be fluent realtime, or kind of jumpy (e.g. player gets 0.1 seconds to enter something or he gets 2 seconds - the former is suitable for heavily action game, the latter for a more strategig game, requiring the player to think longer before making a decision)

The nice effect is, you get all of this from the same underlying system. This allows to parametrize your game, even let the player parametrize the engine and choose from infinite turns, over noticeable but finite turn to realtime action.

Ok, many words. If I told old new, just dump this message. I'm sure the queuing system is known to game developepers, so it must be old news for at least some of the visitors here. But maybe I could give a few ideas to aspiring developers with less experience