The eternal question: first-person or isometric?

[DraQ]

iso metric

It's "isometric", not "iso metric", "is ometric" or "isome trick".

oblivion/morrowind really annoyed me in melee because i couldn't see what was going on around me.

Aah, the joys of being to lazy to RTFM or even check the options menu.

 

[someone else]

Isometric, eventhough my favourite RPG is UW2. I'll like to play a good FPS RPG, STALKER hyped but failed to deliver, a good example will be like Oblivion with guns(j/k). UW2 with guns? With mecha! And spaceships! And giant monsters to battle!

Mechwarrior+UW2+Godzilla+Ultraman+Xcom+X, teh ultimate game!

 

[muds_animal_friend]

Considering everything (mainstream) uses 3D I don’t see why we can’t have a freely positional camera, or at least a reasonably variety of available camera angles like the Spellforce games. How hard can it be to program a decent camera system (i.e. one that differs in every conceivable way from NWN 2’s)?

 

[leavemethehellalone]

Third person isometric

 

[Suchy]

For exploration, it's just a matter of personal taste. I definitely prefer 1st person. And for some reason I really don't like that behind-shoulders TPP... I guess the fact that I have a gag reflex when I think "Tomb Raider" has something to do here.

For combat, depends on the style. If I control only one character, I again prefer FPP. I had to modify some ini files in Gothic 2 to let me stay in 1st person for combat.
If I control the whole party, then of course ISO (and TB). The worst combination would be realtime action combat and ISO.

 

[A user named cat]

Another viewpoint that has never been done for an RPG before but would be fucking interesting would be the typical adventure game viewpoint. Like this...

Also, I want to see a jump'n'run style RPG. Seriously. Commander Keen/Super Mario perspective RPG would be something interesting.

It has been done; Valkyrie Profile. If I'm understanding you right, that is.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

iso metric

It's "isometric", not "iso metric", "is ometric" or "isome trick".

What planet are you on? It's obviously "iso me trick".

 

[DraQ]

Third person isometric

One wonders how would first person isometric look like.

 

[JarlFrank]

Another viewpoint that has never been done for an RPG before but would be fucking interesting would be the typical adventure game viewpoint. Like this...

Also, I want to see a jump'n'run style RPG. Seriously. Commander Keen/Super Mario perspective RPG would be something interesting.

It has been done; Valkyrie Profile. If I'm understanding you right, that is.

Hmm, from what I checked out about the game right now... nope. But I guess I've only found screens for VP2, not the first part, which might be completely different.

EDIT:
Yeah, first part of the series looks pretty close to what I was imagining. Any chance to find a PC version of this, or do I have to use an emulator?

 

[A user named cat]

No PC version, it's strictly a console jRPG. It's very different too from most games of the genre. It's heavy on the dialogue side and of course suffers from the typical Japanese to English awkward translations. Aside from that, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Norse mythology setting, lots of characters, good premise, item creation and fun battle system as was typical with Enix back then.

To break it down as short as possible: you're a valkyrie sent down by Odin to earth to collect souls for the battle of Ragnarok. The game is broken down into chapters which are set by time periods, you use up time everytime you enter a town or dungeon, and when time is up you enter Ragnarok. Game is much longer than it sounds. Worth a play unless you're a standard Codexer that loathes anything jRPG.

 

[Grindstone_82]

Isometric.


The Isometric perspective allows for more ways to manipulate the game world.

Also, first person games tend to deteriorate into shooters / twitch like games (see Oblivion. My Tomb-Raider-esque button hacking and mouse clicking shouldn't determine how well my Dark-Elf fares in a fight), whereas in Iso games the differentiation between the player and the character is always clear.

 

[DraQ]

The Isometric perspective allows for more ways to manipulate the game world.

Does not follow.

 

[Grindstone_82]

The Isometric perspective allows for more ways to manipulate the game world.

Does not follow.

I have yet to see a game that proves me wrong


it's like the graphics > gameplay argument... of course polished graphics do not per se forbid good gameplay, but in reality, developers focusing on visuals very rarely come up with intriguing games (and sadly, I know this rule o' thumb only applies to RPGs )

 

[DraQ]

The Isometric perspective allows for more ways to manipulate the game world.

Does not follow.

I have yet to see a game that proves me wrong

You're doing it wrong.

You made an assertion "The Isometric perspective allows for more ways to manipulate the game world", it's up to you to prove it. I'd start by explaining how.

 

[Grindstone_82]

it's up to you to prove it.

as a matter of principle, I am not inclined to prove anything on the internet


I might elaborate that e.g. the Ultima games (6-8) come to my mind first when I think of ISO RPGs. The overhead perspective alone made manipulating the environment easier, you had a greater range of sight, you could pick up items from far away and drop them where you wanted conveniently. I am hard pressed to come up with a first person RPG where you could manipulate the game world extensively... even then Ultima Underworld comes to mind :wink: but seriously, I'm at a loss here

 

[JarlFrank]

it's up to you to prove it.

as a matter of principle, I am not inclined to prove anything on the internet

This isn't the internets. This is madness. THIS... IS... CODEX!

 

[DraQ]

I might elaborate that e.g. the Ultima games (6-8) come to my mind first when I think of ISO RPGs.

Which is irrelevant to the thing you asserted. Yes, Ultimas offer super-awesome interactivity - so fucking what?

If the only "RPGs" (I'm using your definition of this term here, for the sake of discussion) in existence were Diablo 1 and Morrowind your reasoning would lead to the conclusion that FPP RPGs allow for more ways to manipulate the game world, which shows exactly how much is it worth.

you had a greater range of sight

You didn't. In first person perspective your range of sight is limited only by obstacles and engine used. True, your FOV is limited to 90-120 degrees, but the range of sight is unlimited yielding theoretically infinite area you can see. Overhead view (any) doesn't impose angular constraints on your FOV, but the area you can see is always limited.

I don't deny that iso is easier to implement, as it works perfectly with simple 2D engines and is perfect solution for games where you directly control more than one character, but the range of sight and area you can see is more limited in iso.

you could pick up items from far away

I like the way you confuse control mode befitting given perspective with interactivity. Do entertain me more.

and drop them where you wanted conveniently

Well, I can drop an object with about centimeter resolution in Morrowind, slightly worse in Wizardry 8. In, say, IE game it'd be about one meter. Fail again, plus you still haven't even touched the subject of *how* iso allows for more interaction with gameworld.

I am hard pressed to come up with a first person RPG where you could manipulate the game world extensively... even then Ultima Underworld comes to mind :wink: but seriously, I'm at a loss here

Doing it wrong again. No one cares how long list of RPGs you will produce if you fail to explain how iso allows for more ways to manipulate the gameworld.

 

[Grindstone_82]

I might elaborate that e.g. the Ultima games (6-8) come to my mind first when I think of ISO RPGs.

Which is irrelevant to the thing you asserted. Yes, Ultimas offer super-awesome interactivity - so fucking what?

If the only "RPGs" (I'm using your definition of this term here, for the sake of discussion) in existence were Diablo 1 and Morrowind your reasoning would lead to the conclusion that FPP RPGs allow for more ways to manipulate the game world, which shows exactly how much is it worth.

coherence not found

theoretically infinite

exactly. As we aren't living in the Realm of Theory though , the point is that the portion of the screen I can see from an overhead POV is more extensive in all directions as in a first person POV. Try picking up a chair in first person, then spin around (or should I say, revolve around ), maybe walk somewhere then drop it. How inconvenient and inefficient (if you ever noticed that space where you could drop it in the first place)

Do entertain me more.

Why, you can do that perfectly yourself

 

[DraQ]

I might elaborate that e.g. the Ultima games (6-8) come to my mind first when I think of ISO RPGs.

Which is irrelevant to the thing you asserted. Yes, Ultimas offer super-awesome interactivity - so fucking what?

If the only "RPGs" (I'm using your definition of this term here, for the sake of discussion) in existence were Diablo 1 and Morrowind your reasoning would lead to the conclusion that FPP RPGs allow for more ways to manipulate the game world, which shows exactly how much is it worth.

coherence not found

Are you always such a clueless fuck?

*sigh*
Very well, let me elucidate.

Your train of thought is:
%gametitle offers the best interactivity in the genre && %gametitle uses %viewtype -> %viewtype allows for more ways to manipulate the gameworld

Which is pure bullshit. If the most interactive RPG on the market was FPP, the conclusion would be different as it depends not on some intrinsic values of FPP or isometric projection, but on what is available on the market.

theoretically infinite

exactly. As we aren't living in the Realm of Theory though , the point is that the portion of the screen I can see from an overhead POV is more extensive in all directions as in a first person POV.

No it isn't. There are very few FPP games with draw distance lower than about twenty meters. It's more extensive in some directions, like backwards or rear-left, but it's hardly of benefit if you aren't controlling multiple characters.

Even if you are, it still doesn't have any relevance to the number of ways you can manipulate the game world.

Try picking up a chair in first person, then spin around (or should I say, revolve around ), maybe walk somewhere then drop it. How inconvenient and inefficient (if you ever noticed that space where you could drop it in the first place)

Real life must be quite troublesome to you then. Accept my sincerest condolences.

Still no relevance to general interactivity.

Do entertain me more.

Why, you can do that perfectly yourself

You're far better at that than I can ever hope to be.

By the way, we have free Village Idiot position here on the Codex and you have the necessary qualifications, are you interested?

 

[Grindstone_82]

I might elaborate that e.g. the Ultima games (6-8) come to my mind first when I think of ISO RPGs.

Which is irrelevant to the thing you asserted. Yes, Ultimas offer super-awesome interactivity - so fucking what?

If the only "RPGs" (I'm using your definition of this term here, for the sake of discussion) in existence were Diablo 1 and Morrowind your reasoning would lead to the conclusion that FPP RPGs allow for more ways to manipulate the game world, which shows exactly how much is it worth.

coherence not found

Are you always such a clueless fuck?

13 year old schoolgirl detected

Which is pure bullshit. If the most interactive RPG on the market was FPP, the conclusion would be different as it depends not on some intrinsic values of FPP or isometric projection, but on what is available on the market.

I like how you step back from naming the same titles as in your first post, because you know they don't back up your statement. And again, your statement does not show coherence

theoretically infinite

No it isn't. There are very few FPP games with draw distance lower than about twenty meters. It's more extensive in some directions, like backwards or rear-left,

first person games tend to simulate a field of view of a person, DUH. Since you should be aware that most humans have an almost, but not quite, view field of 180 degrees, you have to do the bad old spin-on-your-heels to look around

but it's hardly of benefit if you aren't controlling multiple characters.

I have not played any party based first person RPGs yet (DOS games maybe, but not with a physics engine), what games do apply here? Though I shudder in horror at the thought

Real life must be quite troublesome to you then. Accept my sincerest condolences.

Yes of course, let's simulate DraQ's 'real life' on a PC. No wait, there are already enough drab boring games with no dialogue

 

[DraQ]

13 year old schoolgirl detected

Butthurt detected.

I like how you step back from naming the same titles as in your first post, because you know they don't back up your statement.

I like how you imply that Diablo offers more interactivity than Morrowind - such an elegant proof of your dumbfuckery.

I can give you other eamples - how about basing your conclusion on Diablo VS Wizardry 8? Maybe try BG1 VS Daggerfall?

most humans have an almost, but not quite, view field of 180 degrees

About 90 degrees of which offers any visual accuity.

but it's hardly of benefit if you aren't controlling multiple characters.

I have not played any party based first person RPGs yet (DOS games maybe, but not with a physics engine), what games do apply here? Though I shudder in horror at the thought

Lack of reading comprehension detected.

Also, how does physics engine fit into your argument apart from having (sadly unused) potential of increasing interactivity of FPP RPGs compared to iso ones?

Real life must be quite troublesome to you then. Accept my sincerest condolences.

Yes of course, let's simulate DraQ's 'real life' on a PC. No wait, there are already enough drab boring games with no dialogue

[/quote] It's quite unsurprising that you'd find a game with compound/complex sentences lacking 's at every turn drab and boring, though I hoped you'd at least be able to identify them as dialogue. It seems that I've overestimated your intellect.

 

[Grindstone_82]

I like how you imply that Diablo offers more interactivity than Morrowind - such an elegant proof of your dumbfuckery.

I have done no such thing, and you agree by not quoting anything that would prove me saying this. At first I wanted to say 'I have done no such thing AS YOU KNOW', but frankly, it seems your subjective perception makes you read basically anything you want into my posts. Lay off the crack

I can give you other eamples - how about basing your conclusion on Diablo VS Wizardry 8? Maybe try BG1 VS Daggerfall?

Ah, I have never, ever, implied that all first person RPGs -wether you call em that or not- feature interactive worlds, as it would be horribly stupid to say such a thing. Though consequently, I am not surprised such an assumption popped up in your mind

most humans have an almost, but not quite, view field of 180 degrees

About 90 degrees of which offers any visual accuity.

this proves your point and refutes my point how?

Lack of reading comprehension detected.

I am trying hard to make sense of your incoherent ramblings, may I be forgiven if I fail at times

Also, how does physics engine fit into your argument apart from having (sadly unused) potential of increasing interactivity of FPP RPGs compared to iso ones?

sadly unused being the keyword here, as I said long ago. I do not care about games that can be dreamed up from the miraculous realm of possibility, but only those that sit on shelves

It's quite unsurprising that you'd find a game with compound/complex sentences lacking 's at every turn drab and boring, though I hoped you'd at least be able to identify them as dialogue. It seems that I've overestimated your intellect.

please do not tell me you continue your pointless bickering in real life. It's hardly imaginable, since you would probably have been punched to death / stoned by angry mobs long since

 

[DraQ]

I like how you imply that Diablo offers more interactivity than Morrowind - such an elegant proof of your dumbfuckery.

I have done no such thing, and you agree by not quoting anything that would prove me saying this.

O'rly?

How about:

I might elaborate that e.g. the Ultima games (6-8) come to my mind first when I think of ISO RPGs.

Which is irrelevant to the thing you asserted. Yes, Ultimas offer super-awesome interactivity - so fucking what?

If the only "RPGs" (I'm using your definition of this term here, for the sake of discussion) in existence were Diablo 1 and Morrowind your reasoning would lead to the conclusion that FPP RPGs allow for more ways to manipulate the game world, which shows exactly how much is it worth.

coherence not found

Are you always such a clueless fuck?

*sigh*
Very well, let me elucidate.

Your train of thought is:
%gametitle offers the best interactivity in the genre && %gametitle uses %viewtype -> %viewtype allows for more ways to manipulate the gameworld

Which is pure bullshit. If the most interactive RPG on the market was FPP, the conclusion would be different as it depends not on some intrinsic values of FPP or isometric projection, but on what is available on the market.

I like how you step back from naming the same titles as in your first post, because you know they don't back up your statement.

I like how you imply that Diablo offers more interactivity than Morrowind - such an elegant proof of your dumbfuckery.

Unbelievable - you're so dense that light bends around you.

Ah, I have never, ever, implied that all first person RPGs -wether you call em that or not- feature interactive worlds, as it would be horribly stupid to say such a thing. Though consequently, I am not surprised such an assumption popped up in your mind

Well, it's hard to be surprised with such conclusion after stating that, for some mysterious reason, iso allows for some kinds of interactivity FPP doesn't.

this proves your point and refutes my point how?

If you actually bothered to clarify your point and its relevance to your "iso is more interactive" mindfuck, I might be able to answer this question.

Anyway, continue digging yourself deeper, as I doubt you'd be able to back up your initial statement.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

as a matter of principle, I am not inclined to prove anything on the internet

Retard alert.

 

[MetalCraze]

I don't care about the perspective as long as a game delivers.
though give me top-down TB rpg or tactical game now. I feel a critical lack of that shit in my life.