the most dark mature and intelligent RPGs

[Kaanyrvhok]

I'm in the Darklands KOTOR 2 boat too

 

[DragoFireheart]

Dragon Age 2. Ultra dark and super grity yo.

 

[Excidium]

Does anyone knows where this scene took place:


http://i51.tinypic.com/mhr34.jpg


??

Because I don't recall it.

Wasn't present in the final game.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Princess Debut (DS)

 

[oscar]

Fallout 1. The second went a bit nuts on the pop-culture references and talking plants too fit the criteria.

VtM:BL, was very creepy and had some quite emotional moments.

Arcanum, not for being particularly dark but for it's Victorian take on standard fantasy.

Though all the Troika games lose some seriousness from all the in-jokes and references.

Darklands. Ever present quietly ominous tone of evil and satanic worked well with the historic setting.

 

[sea]

I thought the first Dragon Age had plenty of dark themes. I mean the game didn't really wrap up all that well in the end, but there were individual places that were or could be quite grim.

Like?

The only thing I can really think of off hand is the Chantry using lyrium to control the Templars via their addiction. Even then it's not at all important to the plot, and not exactly what I'd call edgy.

Unless of course "zomg teh bloods!" means the game is mature.

Uh... gay elves?

 

[laclongquan]

Legend of Mana? Ignore the art style and it's a relatively dark game.

You are too deep, bro, these shallow blasphemer wont get your point. But yeah, I agree Legend of Mana is prrrrrrrrrrretty dark and mature. Provided you can get over the art style, which as far as I can tell is a pretty high obstacle.

LOM is a perfect example of using art to disguise deep philosophical nightmare.

 

[Pablosdog]

Also I know a lot of people here will probably disagree, but Planescape Torment is garbage in terms of quality of ideas. The writing is nice and descriptive but really its just garbage. Wall of text after wall of text of really asinine junk. I don't think the game is "mature" at all. It seems to be targeted at people around the age of fourteen to twenty one.

Can you give me an example of some garbage ideas then? I really want to know what's so asinine about Planescape. Please, enlighten me. How can writing be "nice and descriptive" yet garbage at the same time? Why does the amount of text suddenly effect it's quality? What makes it's ideas so garbage?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Mature game? Just think of a game that your dad could play for more than 5 minutes without facepalming at Psychology 101 moments. It's probably gonna be one that doesn't take itself seriously.

Grim Fandango? Dunno.

 

[Mrowak]

Second page and no mention of Betrayal at Krondor? Fucking

Granted, BaK is not dark in the modern sense of the word - shades of gray and shit. However, it is very serious in tone. There are political machinations, conspiracies and surprise surprise - betrayals. When you really read closely enough it can get very depressing. It completely lacks "epic" vibe I so much loathe in modern games.

Plus, the writing is one of the best among computer games. Frankly, only PS:T, TW2 and MotB can compete. And, for me, BaK is still a better game for having better gameplay than those three.

Honestly, that it is not a part of Codex's top 5 is some kind of sad joke. There's no way that, for example, Arcanum is better than BaK.

 

[made]

While I think BoK is under-appreciated around here, its main strength is story/dialogue, certainly not gameplay. I've never finished it, but from what I've seen the areas are empty and lifeless, travel is annoying (can't move and turn at the same time), repetitive combat with very few options so it always plays out the same way, simplistic skill system where you can max out the relevant abilities half-way through. Certainly not even close to Arcanum even with all its faults. Though I welcome you to make a BoK thread and convince me otherwise as you seem to enjoy this game a great deal.

 

[Excidium]

I liked the combat in BAK, the magic system is pretty cool.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Also, no one will listen to me but I'm feeling like it : Final fantasy tactics

Add Vagrant Story too. Final Fantasy 12 could've been too had it not been for Vaan and Penelo and their "I wanna be a pirate xD" bullshit.

 

[Mrowak]

While I think BoK is under-appreciated around here, its main strength is story/dialogue, certainly not gameplay. I've never finished it, but from what I've seen the areas are empty and lifeless, travel is annoying (can't move and turn at the same time), repetitive combat with very few options so it always plays out the same way, simplistic skill system where you can max out the relevant abilities half-way through. Certainly not even close to Arcanum even with all its faults. Though I welcome you to make a BoK thread and convince me otherwise as you seem to enjoy this game a great deal.

I really don't have time now to argue the case (maybe later, in the evening) but you are wrong about locations being empty and lifeless and annoying travel - that something is not given on the plate every 10 seconds it just does not mean it doesn't exist. The exploration part enters here.

If combat in BaK was repetetive with limited option that just means the combat in Arcanum must have put you in a coma. I have never had more boring combat encounters in any other game than Arcanum. BaK offered some neat, memorable boss-fights, and really interesting spell-selection. Some more common encounters were interesting as well e.g. fights against trolls.

And about maxing out abilities? The only abilities I had maxed out in BaK by the end of my multiple playthroughs were Barding and Haggle - so it was hardly a game-breaker to me as neither of them had significant impact on gameplay. Of course in theory you could spam one skill until it rised to godly levels. In practice it wasn't that easy - it took ages and you really had to know where to find particular items which could fasten the process. And it was faster and more fun to just go with the flow.

 

[ever]

Can you give me an example of some garbage ideas then? I really want to know what's so asinine about Planescape. Please, enlighten me. How can writing be "nice and descriptive" yet garbage at the same time? Why does the amount of text suddenly effect it's quality? What makes it's ideas so garbage?

Gladly.

See here is some garbage:

"The tattoo speaks of four minds. One was a woman, who loved a man who *knew* her and *knew* not love. The other was a blind man, who saw things no mortal eye could see. Another was a familiar, a mage's pet, bought and bound. And the last was a slave."

"Why did you not want to tell me this?"

"The four are bound with a symbol that is *known* to me." A symbol of torment had appeared above Fell, which Dak'kon elaborated on, "The symbol is torment. He says that you have always worn it, for the flesh *knows* that it suffers, even when the mind does not."

Here is some more:

"What *are* you? "

I AM IRON GIVEN PURPOSE. I FORGE THE IMPLEMENTS BY WHICH THE MULTIVERSE WILL BE UNMADE.

"You mean forging weapons? That's your purpose?"

METAL IS LIKE FLESH. BOTH CARRY POTENTIAL IN THEIR VEINS. WHEN TEMPERED WITH HEAT AND PRESSURE, THE POTENTIAL SURFACES. MY PURPOSE IS TO BRING FORTH THIS POTENTIAL. ALLOW IT EXPRESSION.

"Who do you make these weapons for?"

I FORGE THEM FOR THE SAKE OF ENTROPY. THEY ARE PAIN SEEKING EXPRESSION.

"What does entropy need weapons for?"

BEYOND THIS TOWER, ORDER RALLIES ITS LEGIONS. THE MULTIVERSE HEALS ITS WOUNDS. IN TIME, ITS STRENGTH MAY EQUAL ENTROPY.

"The multiverse is your enemy? Why?"

THE MULTIVERSE BREATHES. IT GROWS. IT STAGNATES. IT FORGES ITS CHAINS AROUND THE PLAINS LINK BY LINK. IN TIME, EVEN ENTROPY MAY BE CHAINED.

"And you're opposed to chaining entropy?"

WHEN A THING SEALS ITSELF AGAINST ITS OWN DESTRUCTION, IT MERELY DIES A DIFFERENT DEATH.

"So you're saying immortality is just a different kind of death?"

IMMORTALITY IS ONLY A WORD. ALL THAT EXISTS CAN DIE. EVERY LIVING THING HAS A WEAPON AGAINST WHICH IT HAS NO DEFENSE. TIME. DISEASE. IRON. GUILT.

Yuck! What did I just read? The language is nice, descriptive and obviously written by a well read and literate human, but the content is disgusting.

Anyway now compare the above garbage to something like this from Ultima VII: The Black Gate:

At your approach, the old man straightens and looking directly at you he says, "Well met, Avatar. I am called Erethian. Although thou dost not know me, I know thee well. I have seen thee destroy Mondain's power and so defeat that misguided mage, I have seen thee vanquish the enchantress Minax, I have also seen, in a very unique way, how thou brought low the hellspawn Exodus."
He falls silent here and you notice that the old man's eyes are milky white.

"Name"

The mage gives you a half smile, "'Twould seem that thy memory is failing thee, Avatar. As I have said, my name is Erethian."

"Job"

"I am a follower of the principle of Truth. But unlike those of the Lyceaum, I would prefer to seek out the knowledge instead of waiting for it to come to me. It is this curiosity which has brought me to this island from which Exodus, the spawn of Mondain and Minax, sought to rule the world. The books and scrolls here have taught me much of Britannia's history and other... interesting subjects."

His clouded eyes sparkle with intelligence. But you can't help wondering how books and scrolls are of any use to a man afflicted with blindness.

"Subjects"

"If thou art interested, feel free to inspect them. This is no library." As if regretting his gracious gesture, he adds, "However, I trust that thou wilt take utmost care with the older ones." He stops, on the verge of saying more.

"Bye"

[ There are more things to talk about, quest related, but I wanted to keep it short ]

Now see the lack of the whole suicidal, confused, hormone intoxicated, teenager thinking about the meaning of life stuff. It really goes a long way in making the game more agreeable.

Also notice how I did Planescape Torment a massive favor by giving you a adventure or quest type of dialogue, which isn't what most of the dialogue in Ultima is about ( a quality that makes it much less childish ), whereas in Planescape Torment *all* dialogue is very close to the above quoted samples - very sort of angst ridden, trying really quite very hard to sound meaningful. You can imagine today's drug taking youth reading Planescape Torment dialogue and saying "This is so deep, man" before popping some pills, breathing in fumes from god knows what, and then engaging in same sex intercourse.

So, anyway, for completeness I will also add in a typical dialogue from The Black Gate:

"Name"

"My name is Fenn, Avatar."

"Job"

He looks away from you shamefully. "I have none, Avatar."

"None"

"I used to be a farmer in more prosperous times. I used to work with Komor and Merrick."

"Komor"

"He is my best friend and the bravest man I know."

"Merrick"

"Merrick joined The Fellowship so he could live in their shelter, the poor sod."

"Fellowship"

"If The Fellowship truly wants to help people, why would they let us starve just because we do not want to join? They cannot answer that one!"

"Shelter"

"Hmf! If thou art so unfortunate as to want to live there, thou wouldst do better on the corner with Komor and I."

"Corner"

"Even when pockets are light, there is still some mercy left in this world. Begging for money is not a proud profession, but there are worse ones."

"Worse"

"At least we do not have to do what Merrick does. He recruits for The Fellowship."

"Starve"

"Do not worry. We shall not starve. Camille sends her son Tobias with food and clothing for us every so often."

"Camille"

"Camille is a good woman. She lives at the farm bordering the dairy."

"Tobias"

"He is a fine lad, always willing to give us a hand. Unlike that rude urchin, Garritt."

"Bye"

But of course, you might just prefer the angsty stuff from Torment. If so here I will write you some more:

"Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you. I die. We do not know what we want, and yet we are responsible for what we are. We are alone... abandoned in the midst of infinite possibilities"

"No finite point has meaning without an infinite reference point."

"All actions are equivalent and are on principle doomed to failure, that is a fact. It is certain that we cannot esxape anguish for we *are* anguish"

 

[ever]

More dialogue from the sequel to Planescape: Torment, Planescape: Agony

"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance."

"I exist, it is soft, so soft, so slow"

"You must act out of passion before you can feel it"

"I do not understand! I understand nothing!"

"What a superb absence is my soul"

"Absence of sould is the impurity of mind. The impurity of mind is malleable into evil."

"Evil is the product of the ability of humans to make abstract that which is concrete"

"One lives one's death, One dies one's life"

"Then I die!"

 

[ever]

While I think BoK is under-appreciated around here, its main strength is story/dialogue, certainly not gameplay. I've never finished it, but from what I've seen the areas are empty and lifeless, travel is annoying (can't move and turn at the same time), repetitive combat with very few options so it always plays out the same way, simplistic skill system where you can max out the relevant abilities half-way through.

Betrayal at Krondor has superb writing. Whoever first suggested this is completely correct.

Also I agree with you that the gameplay is quite terrible, but was surprised you mentioned Arcanum as better. I don't know which is better because I haven't thought about it, but I definitely had more fun with Krondor as it actually had challenge.

 

[Surf Solar]

It took almost a whole page till someone mentions Fallout 1, what the fuck is wrong with you people?

 

[ever]

How can writing be "nice and descriptive" yet garbage at the same time? Why does the amount of text suddenly effect it's quality? What makes it's ideas so garbage?

Oops I responded to the example thing but didn't give any treatment to these questions.

First, let me clarify the *writing* is nice and descriptive but the *content* is garbage. These are two separate things. I might write an entire book with beautiful and vivid descriptions, the content of which is exclusively my old crone mother farting, but it would be a terrible book.

And of course, the amount of text won't effect quality *per sentence* but a large amount of bad stuff is always worse than a small amount of bad stuff. For instance if the above mentioned book were a thousand pages, it would be more agonizing to read than if it were one sentence. Another example is I don't really care about all the little microscopic insect poo that's everywhere around me, and you, and everywhere really, but if you came into my room and made it your toilet, I would be very upset.

As to *what* makes the ideas so garbage? I hesitate to name a quality because I can't. I lack the brain power to identify and pinpoint the cause. However I will say this: What bothers me most about it is how it screams angsty teenager, and how each conversation seems like the sort of thing you'd hear from two people currently "zoned out" on many hallucinogens, or in other parts of the game, two people trying their best to sound like "gangsters", and not rational humans.

 

[Mrowak]

How can writing be "nice and descriptive" yet garbage at the same time? Why does the amount of text suddenly effect it's quality? What makes it's ideas so garbage?

Oops I responded to the example thing but didn't give any treatment to these questions.

First, let me clarify the *writing* is nice and descriptive but the *content* is garbage. These are two separate things. I might write an entire book with beautiful and vivid descriptions, the content of which is exclusively my old crone mother farting, but it would be a terrible book.

And of course, the amount of text won't effect quality *per sentence* but a large amount of bad stuff is always worse than a small amount of bad stuff. For instance if the above mentioned book were a thousand pages, it would be more agonizing to read than if it were one sentence. Another example is I don't really care about all the little microscopic insect poo that's everywhere around me, and you, and everywhere really, but if you came into my room and made it your toilet, I would be very upset.

As to *what* makes the ideas so garbage? I hesitate to name a quality because I can't. I lack the brain power to identify and pinpoint the cause. However I will say this: What bothers me most about it is how it screams angsty teenager, and how each conversation seems like the sort of thing you'd hear from two people currently "zoned out" on many hallucinogens, or in other parts of the game, two people trying their best to sound like "gangsters", and not rational humans.

I think you are confusing two things a little bit. In your view the content is garbage because coupled with the 'good' writing it reinforces the idea of misticism, magic and mystery. This is something the devs clearly aimed to do - to make every location mesmerising and removed from the primary world (i.e. the one we live in). Of course, because it is a work of Fiction it is impossible to bring up the sense of true magic going on, especially if someone is bent on criticizing every bit of the game.

The word you are looking for is "preference". You simply prefer your fantasy settings to be rooted more deeply in the real world - the politics, economy, psychologically proved behaviour - they should all play the role here. In other words you would rather have real world with some magic plastered on it with true-to-life consequences of it.

Others, on the other hand, seek in fantasy those aspects of human life and cognition which cannot be proved scientifically, or that are not quite within one's control. Rite of passage, the path to excellence, strong contradictive emotions and "what can change the nature of man?". The games of this kind are exceedingly rare, since, as you mentioned, it is all too often for them easy to turn into pretentious nonsense - jRPGs are the major culprits (or victims?) here.

All the same, in my view, PS:T strikes perfect balance here - it's certainly not your down-to-earth fantasy while at the same time it manages not to become pointless soppy psycho-babble. Naturally, the milage may vary - hence your reception of it is so contradictory to mine, for instance.

 

[Chateaubryan]

Ever's long quotewall and needless moral judgments.

Why is it that so many codexers feel obliged to spit on something because it primarily address teenagers' angst or use iconographies that speaks to them ? When a as an angsty little pile of troubled hormones, I was really happy to play a game that "spoke" to my distress, exposed it and - even - made fun of it. Even if today PS : T content would probably have less of an impact on me, I'm still very glad I played it.

You sure have a problem if an RPG having some "teenager content" is an issue for you.

 

[ever]

@Mrowak

Interesting.

I would say "the path to excellence" is definitely a huge part of Ultima. The fourth game was all about this in fact.

Although I will agree with you that the Ultima games certainly mimic real human interaction much better than other role playing games ( mainly cause they're the only ones who made it an explicit goal ).

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "real life but with magic" because that doesn't do Britannia any justice. Britannia is its own place with its own history ( one the player establishes throughout the series, very charming ) and its own values and its own people. They're *believable* not *the same*.

You mentioned Planescape Torment's question "What can change the nature of a man" and I want you to compare the "psychobabble" ( thank you for this term , much nicer than "garbage" ) in that game, to the way for example Blackthorn's laws in Ultima V change "the nature" of the virtues and the way Britannians behave. Similarly note how the Fellowship in The Black Gate offers people a new competing set of moral principles, and what this means for you the emobodiement of the eight virtues, and for the instutitions of Britannia.

I don't think these are the sorts of things I can find in the real world. The adventures I have in Britannia aren't different just cause of "magic" or setting.

Edit: Edited to make clear that this was a reply to Mrowak

 

[ever]

You sure have a problem if an RPG having some "teenager content" is an issue for you.

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come off that way.

The thread title is something like "what are some *mature* games". My original point was "man Planescape Torment ain't mature, why you nutsos saying it is", then some guy says "Challenge! Explain yourself!" so I was all "Man you kidding me, this is the most immature junk ever" and so on.

There is nothing wrong with games targeting different ( mental ) age groups.

Certainly, if I played the game as a younger ( mentally ) man, it may have appealed to me more.

That being said I don't have much respect for today's teenagers. When I was a teenager I wanted to be a cowboy, ride horses, round up herds of animals on beautiful plains. Today a kid wants to be a drug dealer or gangster, has sex when he's 13, gets bored of that, starts having same sex intercourse, then want's to become a woman. By this point he's probably a junkie. But I digress what happened to Michael has nothing to do with video games.

 

[Surf Solar]

Where exactly was Torment so "angsty" ? :S
Or are you implying that being "mature" means that one must not think about the things mentionend in PST? That game being targeted to young teenagers is probably the worst troll I've read for a while.

 

[ever]

My little story about wanting to be a cowboy and mentioning "Michael" a possible real life relation to myself, is my sense of humor and "trolling" if you will.

The stuff I said about Planescape Torment, is not.