The New Vegas Mod thread

Crispy · Jul 28, 2011

halflingbarbarian said:
Crispy do you walk straight into packs of cazadores or something for them to charge at you in this way? You can snipe a single target at the edge of a pack from far away, and even if you miss, only 1-3 will notice you and be on alert. Shoot a few more times, and even if you miss, the few on alert will break away and move towards you so you can pick them off in smaller clumps.

Maybe I'm exaggerating a little borne of the initial criticizm thrown my way ITT; I can admit that. But to answer your question, no, I'm not just blindly stumbling into a swarm of them and yes, I've used the exact same techniques as you have. Hell, at level 30-ish, I still have to with the larger groups of them. Overconfidence in this game is a bad thing, even if it's somewhat amusing at the time you commit it.

But I'd guinuinely like to see like a 10th level character, especially during someone's first playthrough of NV, try to take on a pack of stock Cazadores, and especially at Hard difficulty. Some are trying to make it sound like it'd be exceedingly easy of an encounter, but I think they'd be exaggerating in the opposite direction.

Also, I realize this entire conversation is a bit banal at first glance, but I think it's worth it nonetheless due to its tangential and interesting side issues re: game balance and encounter design -- and the, I guess, controversy that can surround that. It's not like I sit up at night and bite my fingernails at the memory of those damned bugs...

halflingbarbarian · Jul 28, 2011

I was level 10ish in my first playthrough of NV, using a cowboy repeater from gotten from Primm, when I went back north of Goodsprings to get past the Cazadores that nearly had my ass on the road the first time I went that direction. I knew I was level 10ish because my route of completing quests/clearing locations was the same in both playthroughs (even the first one, because I clear all the shit in surrounding areas along road when I played Fallout 3 and now, NV - completionist) and I am always around level 10 (max 12-13) after clearing Primm.

I use a combination of realtime ironsighted headshots (two or three as the cazadores closes in) before using vat to mop up the 1-2 of them, targeting wings or head as the situation calls for it. Then I switch to a reliable close range bursting weapon like a 10mm SMG and clear out the last one or two, popping stimpacks/healing before I get into melee range. Of course, after the fight quaff an antivenom because their poison is more painful than their actual attacks in my experience (and more surprising, because the rest of the game you don't really keep an eye out for being poisoned). Another possibility which I've fooled around with is using melee weapons with pushback in VATS (like a baseball bat, or a 9 iron) for 1 attack, and when back in realtime use your close range burst weapon to empty a magazine or half, then VATS again for that 1-2 attack which will push the aggressor back; repeat.

There is some backpedalling involved, but not abusively so; anyhow cazadores fly faster than your backpedal. I can't FRAPS a vid now because in my current playthrough (which I've frozen in favor of horror adventure games :D) I'm already at level 24, sorry.

I don't think it's a matter of player skill or whatever, just metagaming knowledge of how to make most efficient use of realtime shots with AP regen and then switching to VATS for finishers, moving away, and repeat. Crispy I think after you get more used to the combat system it will seem less clumsy and you will get more used to juggling VATS and realtime. Apologies if my posts appear to belittle your difficulties but I am truly confused to the issue of balance in NV. If anything is to be balanced it should be doubling the difficulty, at least. Unfortunately that is not possible as the shitty A.I. will fuck all sorts of shit up.

Crispy · Jul 28, 2011

No offense taken and that's a good post. I guess I can and should just salute your VATS efficiency.

Had I decided to chew on them a little longer I probably could've become more of a Cazador killer. I just didn't see the point once I realized these things were by far the most powerful creatures I had encountered anywhere so far, and here they were almost at the beginning of the game, for seemingly no other reason than to be ammo sponges.

Sour grapes? Again, copout? *shrug*

I still hate Cazadores.

P.S. I had no illusions whatsoever about deathclaws. I knew there were areas these things congregated and I avoided them, easily, until later when I was ready to deal with them. Not the case with them flying fuckers. Their toughness seemed out of place, was very surprising, and ultimately just annoying.

halflingbarbarian · Jul 28, 2011

As a reference, I found robotic enemies much more of a hassle. Like those at the end of a certain vault which jump upon you at a close range, and at the vertibird crash site. Sentry bots because their spray laser shots gets your head more often than other enemies and superior DT, and ceiling mounted turrets for the same spray reason and being hard to spot if you get surprised. Hope my suggestions help :D.

anus_pounder · Jul 28, 2011

Definitely. Robots make me rage, what with their DT and decent weaponry.

Carrion · Jul 28, 2011

Robots were a pain in the ass until I discovered that Veronica and ED-E can turn them into scrap metal in a matter of seconds (overpowered companions really fuck up the game balance). Before that I just tried to sneak past them or use explosives, which worked sometimes. Energy weapons help as well, but the most satisfying way of dealing with robots is simply turning them off with the Robotics Expert perk.

Clockwork Knight · Jul 28, 2011

Crispy said:
Okay, I survived this time, but I'm down to 5% health and now I'm almost out of ammo. Hmm. This was just a "random encounter". Worth it? Fuck that. Reload.

Doesn't that make the game boring? Random encounters are already annoyances by nature so the only ones that are "worth it" are those where you run a serious risk of dying and have to use your resources. If I'm gonna get out of a fight just as safe as I was before it, might as well sneak / escape from that snoozefest and save time.

Excidium · Jul 28, 2011

Clockwork Knight said:
Crispy said:

Okay, I survived this time, but I'm down to 5% health and now I'm almost out of ammo. Hmm. This was just a "random encounter". Worth it? Fuck that. Reload.

Click to expand...

Doesn't that make the game boring? Random encounters are already annoyances by nature so the only ones that are "worth it" are those where you run a serious risk of dying and have to use your resources. If I'm gonna get out of a fight just as safe as I was before it, might as well sneak / escape from that snoozefest and save time.

Oh mang, you don't wanna go there.

Crispy · Jul 28, 2011

Very good point but you're taking me a bit out of context. I was trying to convey the fact that this was not an isolated incident. I'm not implying Cazadores were everywhere, but they were common enough and enough of an annoyance to me to justify not their removal, but merely their toning down.

After enough frustrating encounters with them I began to wonder if anyone else had felt the same as I did about them. Along comes NVNexus' Top Ten, and it was on that list. Joy!

I could go back and replay without that mod. Metaknowledge is a powerful thing. But when something that IMO was that overpowered was just ruining an otherwise somewhat enjoyable gameplay experience, and remember, we're still talking about a game based off of Fallout 3 here, so most bets regarding that gameplay should be off, then I'm going to strongly consider a reasonable solution to that if its one that'd be acceptable to me as a "GM" of my own game.

Clockwork Knight · Jul 28, 2011

Excidium said:
Oh mang, you don't wanna go there.

10 pages later

Crispy said:
i cant wait to be a useless piece of shit all day and download all these mods

Fuck im getting wasted by all these cazadores................................

Clockwork Knight said:
I WARNED YOU ABOUT RANDOM ENCOUNTERS

I TOLD YOU DOG

Crispy said:
it keeps happening

Clockwork Knight said:
I TOLD YOU MAN

I TOLD YOU ABOUT CAZADORES

DragoFireheart · Jul 28, 2011

Don't feel bad Crispy. A lot of people hate Cazadores.

Excidium · Jul 28, 2011

What I hate the most about cazadores is how close to the ground they fly, sometimes half of their bodies clip on the floor.

Crispy · Jul 29, 2011

I'm probably going to re-read this entire thread in about six months and punch myself in the face.

DragoFireheart · Jul 29, 2011

Excidium said:
What I hate the most about cazadores is how close to the ground they fly, sometimes half of their bodies clip on the floor.

They're even tougher on the Xbox360. You can't aim at their head in VATS unless they are point-blank range.

Roguey · Jul 29, 2011

Ed123 said:
That, at its' core, is why I fucking hate cazadores. It's like Brosidian specifically designed them to highlight and exacerbate some of the weakest mechanics in the game.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/180415682482040773 :smug:

Crispy said:
Well, fuck. Just spray with your 12.7mm SMG. Where the fuck do I find one of those? I got a 10mm one with 150 rounds. Okay, I survived this time, but I'm down to 5% health and now I'm almost out of ammo. Hmm. This was just a "random encounter". Worth it? Fuck that. Reload.

I had a large stockpile of 9mm ammo at my bases, it was never a problem. I'm a stockpiler. And a frequent fast traveler.

They've been a pain in the ass all over the Mohave.

But getting ambushed them should be impossible considering your handy enemy compass. I see those fast moving red lines and I know there's trouble ahead and either stay away or go back to my stockpile to prepare.

They never seem to be related to any quests, and they're ~~constantly~~ often enough forcing me to reroute (Edit: that was a bit hyperbolic, so corrected), to run out of ammo if I decide to fight a pack of them, they swarm and mutilate any of my NPC's, they're just plain fucking my shit up. I wonder...

Actually Red Lucy sends you into Cazador Country to steal some eggs for her. I think that's it though. That was a fun area (I'm not being sarcastic).

I do agree about how the lack of an antidote button for your followers is terrible and "We didn't want to clutter the follower UI" isn't a good enough excuse.

Oh yeah, there's a simple little mod that doesn't REMOVE them from the game, doesn't COMPLETELY GIMP them, it just brings their HP down to a REASONABLE level.

I already consider their HP reasonable (on normal, higher difficulties are pointless). But hey, your game, the toolset was released specifically to modify values to your taste, knock yourself out.

Surf Solar · Jul 29, 2011

Even that I agree with y'all, give Crispy a break, I believe he got the point now.

I'd really be interested in Crispy's experience with the Old World Blues DLC and the Bullet Sponges one can find there.

Crispy · Jul 29, 2011

I'm kind of still at the beginning of that, Solar. So far its combat has been quite an eye-opener, though, and makes a lot of the critters "back home" seem wimpy in comparison.

I hate the place's atmosphere, so I may never finish it, but we'll see.