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The Paradox Grand Strategy Games

Vaarna_Aarne

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And just so you know, there's two indicators of your Badboy level:

First is the Reputation text in your kingdom window, with "We have an Honourable reputation" being the zero rating. When it becomes "We have a rather bad reputation", it's high time to kick back and relax for a while.

The second indicator is the "infamy" hit your vassals loyalty gets.
 

torpid

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Or should I just abort, and start out with EU3 instead, as some people here have mentioned?

Go with EU3, and if you think that it doesn't offer enough, go deeper with HOI3. In vanilla EU3 once you're strong enough, high badboy is a blessing: free wars and conquests! THE WORLD IS YOURS

s_paintbrush.jpg


(But don't try that strategy in Magna Mundi, it has some very painful events dealing with players who flout badboy limits.)
 

janjetina

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I will join in with the advice to start with EU 3, which is the best introduction to Paradox grand strategy genre and wait for CK 2.
 

LoPan

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I am playing HoI3 without expansions or mods, mind you, and I dare say the game is not nearly as complex as I feared and hoped. Of course the finer points of land warfare and especially that of air and sea remain foreign to me, but so far a couple of days of what was largely manual-reading and the game becomes very accessible. Of course I remain very suspicious of this assessment; I am playing on normal as Hungary in the earliest starting year (1936), I aligned to the axis and my paternal autocracy invaded Romania, Yugoslavia, Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey in that order. Romania was an actual war but after that I performed a series of territorial grabs rather than waged wars and am now considered one of the Major powers. The war with the soviets is now looming and I am woefully under-prepared and believe I am largely due to a fear of a true total war, but so far the game has not been much of a challenge and for all I know I am soon to be mangled by the Russians (it is January 1942) or by starting in 1936 and playing Hungary on normal I stumbled into easy mode.

I have no armor, the army consists of fighter planes, all forms of artillery and panzerfaust infantry, but even with this I don't much doubt I am about to face the consequences of my expansionist ambitions.

What is really striking about the game is how accessible it really is, yet the details and fine points seem wonderfully vast; it is often manifested that my power over the game is based on my comprehension of it, which is what most strategy games are supposed to do, or supposed to try to do, but usually fail to a greater or lesser extent. What is also striking is how in almost all its mechanics and functions the game promotes forward thinking and is really rather good at naturally training the player in the manners of thinking the game employs.
 

GarfunkeL

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You need the expansions to refine few of the concepts, to fix the supply issues and to improve the AI. But as Hungary, it is fairly simple to capture your immediate neighbours - facing USSR (or Germany) is the true test.

Also, never waste research on all forms of artillery. AAA (both unit and province wise) is pretty weak, only use it if you have fixed defences that will be in place for years - as Germany, I always build 2 points of AAA in the Siegfried-line provinces to discourage rampant Allied bombing of the defending units. AT is completely useless aside from few special situations, you should have your own armoured/mechanized forces to deal with enemy armour and inf+art along with air support can handle the cases where you don't. Of course, there are multiple viable ways to organize your army and which country you are playing affects this a lot - the big boys can ignore AAA and AT, while they are useful to a minor who can't afford to build armoured divisions.
 

Renegen

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HOI3 is quite complex because you have to plan like 2 years ahead in a game that's only 10 years long. If you play as a serious country and try to win the game, you don't want to find yourself with no manpower, or low IC, or low officers, or shit navy, or shit air force, or shit infrastructure or anything else you can think of.

I find the game has too much micromanaging and still broken air and sea battles so I don't really play it anymore. EU3 + Magna Mundi is where it's at.
 

curry

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The thing with Paradox games is that you pretty much must have the expansions because they are more like big patches than actual expansions.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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HOI3 is quite complex because you have to plan like 2 years ahead in a game that's only 10 years long. If you play as a serious country and try to win the game, you don't want to find yourself with no manpower, or low IC, or low officers, or shit navy, or shit air force, or shit infrastructure or anything else you can think of.

I find the game has too much micromanaging and still broken air and sea battles so I don't really play it anymore. EU3 + Magna Mundi is where it's at.
Boolsheet, the air and sea battles are fine if you understand the factors at work.

Also, you can overcome the lack of a strong navy as, for example, Germany and Soviet Union, with a good air force (mandatory for Germany, the most critical aspect in Barbarossa is the ability to destroy Soviet formations completely, which requires powerful TAC or CAS availability, and the Interceptors to down the Soviet air force). If you are lucky you might be able to drop paratroops into Britain when there are few defenders there, and naval bombers can be used to harass their navy.

Most recently I had a bit of lulz and played a opportunist Hungary, walking out of the war unaligned, with a sizable piece of Germany when I joined the fun with Brits and Russians alongside Romania, Slovakia and Yugoslavia. Then I built a giant fortification line with an extensive bundle of nukes in my pocket in case Soviets actually invaded, and did a test of it with mighty results (one defensive battle had a 1:500 casualty ratio in my favor, Land Forts rock).

I used the mod I built that improves the lot of minors in the game, and improves Finland's representation with additional historical events, leaders and whatnot. I was willing to do other countries as well, but people didn't bring me material to use. If I'm going to add anything, it'd probably be a decision for industrializing countries that'd allow them to use cash to improve resources in the homeland. Before that, I improved global resource supply by removing the frankly idiotic resource penalty from lower economic policies, so now many countries can actually accumulate resources.
 

Renegen

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So how do you annihilate the enemy's air force then? I could never do it. Or prevent enemy fleets from always running away.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Air Force is a necessity, unless you're willing to just tank their attacks, which would require that you have ground superiority to take the hits.

Navy isn't as big of a necessity if you can defend your coasts and are willing to avoid using convoys. With superior air power you can also jump the puddle between you and Britain, though having a navy makes supplying troops and supplies to the invasion far easier. Good thing about navy though is that you can delay building one. If you start building a Kriegsmarine carrier fleet with super-heavy battleships in '42 or '43, you will rule the seas in '46. Personally I believe a strong Wehrmacht and then Luftwaffe must be built prior to a strong Kriegsmarine. And the core of any air force is Interceptors, so you can cripple the enemy air force while yours stays in tip-top shape, and the core of an army is infantry with artillery and AT, to have a stout foundation that doesn't require fuel and can be deployed en masse to give the powerhouse Panzer Korps the base to launch flanking blitz from. Infantry is the shield, Panzers are the sword, and air force is the horse that will trample the defeated enemies. Navy is the boat you use to get the others over the sea, thus it's role is not as pivotal.
 

GarfunkeL

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How to destroy enemy Air Force:

1.) Build enough of your own. Interceptors have the best stats but fighters are sometimes needed for their additional range, especially if you don't have drop tanks yet. Organize these into groups of 4, which is the best size between firepower and stacking penalty.

2.) Have air fields near the front. I start building additional air field in Poland immediately after conquering them, in preparation for Barbarossa. If you have more planes than is the size of the air field, their repair rate plummets. You don't want that. in 1936, I build a few more in western Germany as well because RAF is a bitch.

3.) Order a single fighter stack on air superiority mission over each enemy air field in range. Keep one or two stacks in reserve, so you can switch stacks when they get low on ORG. Never allow them to get to 0 ORG as after that their STR plummets rapidly. This way every time an enemy stacks tries to take off from the air field, they will get intercepted and usually retreat back to that same field. It's rough going in the beginning, hence why you need replacement stacks.

4.) Enhance this coverage by using TAC bombers in runway catering missions on air fields that are beyond the reach of your fighters. This is heavy micromanaging because they get repaired pretty quickly and if there's heavy AAA, your casualties get heavy as well.

Time number four somewhat after number three, so that enemy fighters are all tied down. If your planes have nothing else to do, use them to cripple radar stations to improve the combat odds for your fighters. Incidentally, this is quite like the real Luftwaffe strategy used in Battle of the Britain until Hitler ordered bombing of London.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Personally I'd argue that Intercept mission is better than Air Superiority, because in it the planes can repair as they only take off to fight. Does Intercept bonus work for Air Superiority mission?

Anyway, I'll say my piece on tactical and strategic air war:

1) The first objective of strategic bombing is not the destruction of enemy industry and resources (you simply cannot destroy them faster than they recover across the country), but to lower National Unity. As of For The Motherland, it's nearly impossible to build up National Unity outside of events and decisions, so this is doubly important now.

2) You shouldn't have more than two wings of 4 Strategic Bombers though, because they're expensive as hell, vulnerable and of limited use to the grand scale. However, in late game they have one major advantage: They're the best method of nuking due to having huge range. You can fly nukes from the border to Moscow in late 40's if you've overdone the fuel tank tech. However, keep in mind that in HoI3 provincial AA will cause damage to bombing planes, which is a big problem bombers face, and a big boon for smaller countries.

3) Tactical Bombers are, in my opinion, the ultimate bomber unit. They're at minimum good at everything, and best at a number of things. CAS may have better Hard Attack, but I think destroying Soft targets for good is the most optimal ability (since you can destroy them fast, and they're numerous), which is what TAC excels at. Similarly, they can carry nukes. TAC also has about double the range of CAS, which is a godsend for Barbarossa and Russia's spread out airfields. They're also faster and more durable than CAS, while able to supplement Naval Bombing, making them in my opinion the mainstay of any high IC bomber force.

4) CAS are cheap, vulnerable, slow and short-ranged. However, by cheap I mean they're *really* cheap. And with their massive Hard Attack and techs that combine for CAGs and fighters, you can keep them up to date cheaply. Having a wing or two is enough for when you want to get rid of some tanks you've beaten in battle.

5) Naval Bombers and CAGs are mutually exclusive. If you have a carrier fleet, you won't need NAV, as CAGs are for the exact same role. And that role is sinking big ships. Air power can be a decisive advantage in naval battle, which is why two high-tech carrier task forces with super-heavy battleships can cripple the Royal Navy is the Luftwaffe negates their naval bombers and leaves your CAGs unmolested.

6) The true purpose of air power, IMO, in the Battle of Britain is not to bomb, but to pave way for an airborne assault. Paratrooopers circumvent the navy completely and can strike with pinpoint efficiency in large numbers, able to create an instant encirclement to devastating effect. Similarly, Transport Planes can help you supply them until the convoys have a naval base. If you're lucky, the British AI will have shipped its troops to fight in Africa, leaving the home island lightly defended. Instead of a Sea Lion, use an Air Lion.
 

GarfunkeL

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In my experience, if you use Intercept mission and the target area is far around from the designated base, the planes simply won't have time to react. Air Superiority on a single province keeps them there more reliably (though they still go back to base every now and then).
 

LoPan

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What is the supply problem in early versions? I see my supply go up and down and switch about a lot, it is negligible of course, but as confusing as to why my production and research sliders will shift around at times without the AI on (never do use the AI, find it suspicious). I should grab a hold of the expansions nonetheless, but as it stands I am rather stuck with original HoI3.

Not looking well for Hungary, it is July 1943 and the war has not yet started, but due to the many divisions of infantry/artillery produced to enforce the soviet front (which, as things sound, may themselves not even get close to being strong enough to hold it) I now have an officer coverage of 55%; if the war starts now it won't last long. Of course I have dumped my twelve research projects in favour of leadership education, but even if it reaches a solid 100% before the war starts I am still looking at a meagre air force (hardly extensive enough to perform the intriguing strategies mentioned above). I have three units of infantry, one unit of AAA and two units of AT on each region on the soviet front (the European Soviet front, the Turkish one is kept by mountain infantry and I am betting on out-manoeuvring the enemy because if, big if here, my intel is correct the Turkish Soviet front is meagrely kept by the Russians and though their territory is all mountains and hill they have standard infantry all over it.)
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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It's isn't a supply "problem." It's because not all of your supplies put into the network are consumed. Weather, infrastructure, terrain and unit activity consume different amounts of supplies. Unconsumed supplies are sent back to the pool. The production slider point for Supplies is the spot where you will absolutely never have a negative net effect on your Supplies, not the actual number automatically consumed.

Also, you can't outmaneuver the Russians. Russian infrastructure means they'll have the advantage in using strategic relocation against your marching infantry. What you'd have is time for a suprise push, but eventually you'll start facing defenders.



PS: You may wanna dig up my mod if you ever get the expansions. It improves minor performance across the board due to higher Leadership, and if material would be provided would rebalance industry elsewhere than just Finland. I'm actually thinking about making a small addition to it too, to make building extra IC worth it (I recently removed the resource production penalties from peactime economic laws to create a global surplus of resources to this end, but it isn't enough for major industrialization) and try and make a decision for non-majors they can use to build more resource production as their IC rises. Current problem is that I don't have a good model for it.
 

LoPan

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I'm afraid I learned the Russian lesson, amongst a veritable slew of others, the hard way. Whole thing was a disaster for reasons which are now obvious to me. The glorious learning curve continues.

I certainly will look up your mod when, and it is a when, I get the expansions. Moving into my third attempt at playing Republican Spain in 1938, not yet convinced it is impossible.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Before my mod, minors are dogfood in HoI3. With less than 20 Leadership (also, Paradox went herp derp and made most minors have less than 10 leadership after vanilla), you simply cannot survive against a main eventer, much less go on the offensive.
 
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I'm afraid I learned the Russian lesson, amongst a veritable slew of others, the hard way. Whole thing was a disaster for reasons which are now obvious to me. The glorious learning curve continues.

I certainly will look up your mod when, and it is a when, I get the expansions. Moving into my third attempt at playing Republican Spain in 1938, not yet convinced it is impossible.
Yeah... that can happen. Glad you're liking it.

In other news, Vicky 2 expansion is out on Tuesday. It's looking REALLY good, can't wait.
 

Renegen

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I'd love your mod Varrna except that I am playing against minors this time. My first Japan game, and so far I've managed to conquer China. I might have a shot...
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Actually the most beautiful thing about HoI3 combat is that the combat and manpower are NOT lopsided against minors, since strategy, quality and position matter more than raw numbers (Front Width is gawd), unlike in other Paradox games. I'm actually thinking about adding a population growth bonus for minors in my Vicky 2 mod, it'd also solve the infamous "Germany is France's two-dollar whore" problem due to French having nearly double the population (I've already set up a pop growth penalty for the French, but it isn't cutting it). Having higher number of folk in places like Hannover and Bavaria would be beneficial for Germany.

Problem is though that I'd need to fiddle around with my Finland population boom modifier too.
 

LoPan

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I couldn't find anything about it in the strategy guide (which should be called the revised and extended manual), but what is the maximum front width before you start getting reserves and does it change depending on the terrain, and are reserves nothing but a waste in a battle? Does putting armour and motorized units into infantry divisions really do that much for their effectiveness? And is there any point at all in getting into light tanks?

As Republican Spain, with Spain conquered, I look to save France from the fascists and not sure if there is much use bothering with tanks as the nation has no practical or theoretical proficiency, seems wiser to get a solid infantry core and use the nations already established disposition towards bombers and interceptors, but if the Germans field their mighty tanks will I yet get shattered due to infantry units not mixed in with tanks?

I am aware I am using this thread as some sort of information service at this point, but as pleasant as the strategy guide is it doesn't provide the sort of solid strategy information as was provided above on the use of airpower.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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No idea. I sure hope so, I bought a physical copy of Vicky 2.

I couldn't find anything about it in the strategy guide (which should be called the revised and extended manual), but what is the maximum front width before you start getting reserves and does it change depending on the terrain, and are reserves nothing but a waste in a battle? Does putting armour and motorized units into infantry divisions really do that much for their effectiveness? And is there any point at all in getting into light tanks?

As Republican Spain, with Spain conquered, I look to save France from the fascists and not sure if there is much use bothering with tanks as the nation has no practical or theoretical proficiency, seems wiser to get a solid infantry core and use the nations already established disposition towards bombers and interceptors, but if the Germans field their mighty tanks will I yet get shattered due to infantry units not mixed in with tanks?

I am aware I am using this thread as some sort of information service at this point, but as pleasant as the strategy guide is it doesn't provide the sort of solid strategy information as was provided above on the use of airpower.

Front Width is by default 15, and is increased by 5 for each additional direction you attack from (when you take envelopment bonuses to account, this is the single most important aspect of advancing, and the key to "rolling thunder" type attacks with the front moving in two steps in order to maximize envelopment to minimize your own casualties). When you attack from 3 directions, the first Envelopment penalty for the defender appears, and each additional direction increases it. Here's an important piece of info: Only Battle Brigades (3,000 strength) take Front Width, Support Brigades (1,000 strength) do not (but Support Brigades cannot fight on their own). This is why the standard division is 3 Battle Brigades and 2 Support Brigades.

Combat Events can also change Front Width temporarily. Encirclement increases it by 5, and Tactical Withdrawal decreases it by 5.

The point to reserves is that you can shift forces around in the battle and react to Combat Event changes to Front Width. A reserve unit can be brought to replace a damaged unit much more easily than a brand new combatant. This is also why Grand Battle Plan is one of the most important techs in the game: It allows rapid reaction to changes in the Front, as the reinforce chance (checked each hour or so to see if a reserve unit joins the Front if Width is available) changes from ~1% to ~5%.

Light Tank tech also influences Motorized and Mechanized units, which is very important because Mechanized is one of the most (if not the most) powerful units in the game. However, Mechanized is for high IC countries only, as they're the most expensive unit in the game. Similarly, you shouldn't use tanks if you can't afford to keep them up to date and have a solid strike capacity for them (ie, at least three-five divisions for Spain, far more if you fight Barbarossa), which requires IC and guaranteed fuel access. More on tanks later.

When a Minor considers an air force, there's only one thing to know: Build Interceptors. A Minor cannot waste the time to build a bomber force, they need air superiority far more in order to conserve manpower (lost to TAC and CAS otherwise). Similarly, they cannot spare the vital doctrine research needed for an effective bomber force. That's the reason why you need at least 20 Leadership for everyone: There's so much shit that you *need* to research to survive.

But keep in mind that Practical proficiency is earned ONLY by building units, which is why you want to make big orders in fast succession to maximize the benefits it gives to building (tech benefits aren't as big for units due to unit techs being low difficulty, but keep in mind to always research Education ahead of schedule and all the other Land Experience techs).

The purpose in mixing "soft" Battle Brigades (infanty, motorised, etc) and "hard" Battle Brigades (all armour, late game mechanized, etc) is to get you the vital benefit of Combined Arms for your armoured formations. More on why you need it next. Infantry doesn't need it for reasons also explained. You don't mix regular infantry and tanks because they do not synch: The tanks main advantage, speed, is lost because Infantry is slow, and Infantry's main advantage, all-terrain functionality, is also lost.

Terrain does not change Front Width, but terrain has enormous influence on combat effectiveness. This is where rivers, mountains, marshes and forests come in. The defender takes very little penalty from terrain, but the attacker can feel it if his divisions aren't appropriate. Terrain also influences supply lines and supply consumption, which can leave fuel dependant divisions bogged down because they lack the supplies needed to act. This is why terrain is the single most important aspect in army composition, and why infantry is the backbone: Because terrain can assrape tanks and fuel-dependant armies in a low infrastructure country with harsh terrain like Finland or Soviet Union. Rivers cut your offensive ability in half for all divisions except Marines, Mountains are daunting to anyone but Mountaineers, and Marines are the only ones who are effective in Marshes. But remember, when penalties aren't big enough, tanks have the single largest bang-to-buck ratio in the game, along with Mechanized, and are also the most resilient units when things are good.

The boon Infantry possesses is that they're decent in every terrain type, which makes up for their slow speed and combines well with their statistics. The Achilles Heel of the tank is that it takes massive terrain penalties anywhere but open plains and steppes, with Hills and Woods being manageable but Forests, Marshes and Mountains being deathtraps. Mechanized are better in dealing with Terrain, though don't have the massive Hard Attack and Hardness tanks have. This is also why Engineers are the tanks best friends: An Engineer brigade will alleviate the tanks' natural weaknesses, making it much more effective than if you'd just pack more artillery. This is also why Tanks should have a Motorized brigade, because it gives them the Combined Arms bonus that also makes them more effective (doubly so after '40).

If you want info on Paradox games, go here:

http://www.paradoxian.org/
 

Destroid

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Generally, you want to group up units that are the same speed, so mixing infantry and armour is a bad idea (super heavy tanks are the exception). Motorised infantry and armour, on the other hand, works out just fine. Light tanks are strong early on and are always faster than medium tanks, but will fall further and further behind in combat power as the years go by. Light tanks also are not penalised as heavily for tough terrain, but you want to avoid using tanks at all in those environments. Also bear in mind that light and medium tanks are attackers - they have high toughness (used for resisting damage on the offensive) but pretty average defensiveness (used for defending). Heavy and superheavy tanks are stronger as defending units.

As to how you should ultimately structure your forces - it's a combination of personal preference and your countries resources, how much manpower, IC and leadership you have. As Spain, I doubt your ability to field an effective armour based army.

I don't remember the specifics of fronts off the top of my head, but it should all be in the wiki.
 

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