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The staticness of dialogue

Longshanks

Augur
Joined
Jul 28, 2004
Messages
897
Location
Australia.
After recently playing The Last Express, I have become more attuned to the terrible dialogue in most games (both in writing and natural movement/expression) and the ugliness of character models. Not that TLE has what JarlFrank is asking for; characters are mostly stationary in conversation. What it did have was shifting camera views, excellent voice acting (in 5 different languages), and simple but warm and expressive 2D graphics.

Where it did have dynamicity was in the movement of characters around the PC, characters constantly move about the train, talking with others while doing so, including to the PC as they squeeze past. The player was therefore able to listen into conversations, these are not repeated, the player needs to be in the right place at the right time to hear them.

This game has shown me how getting the "small" things right can greatly improve its quality. The game's look, music, sound effects, voice acting are all great, elevating the decent to good plot and gameplay, making it one of the best games I've played.

Those who say that current 3D graphics have ascended to such a level that no other method need be considered, are kidding themselves. Character models, even in the most graphically advanced games are still ugly, lacking in expression, warmth and animation, with very poor and limited body animation and horrible looking, stiff clothing.

I am not advocating the 2D “slideshow” graphics of TLE, just that the effectiveness of this basic technique have caused me to more notice the shortcomings of current graphics.
 

adron

Novice
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
22
re: static dialogue - this may be worth a look.. its some kind of interactive narrative engine. http://www.storytron.com. seems interesting, although i havn't seen an example of it in practice.
 

Schauman

Scholar
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
157
Location
Finland
The dialog wheel from ME could be used to create more "active" dialog. It would need some heavy improving though as for majority of the time you really cant tell what you are going to say when you choose the line, unless it is the Paragon / Renegade line. Adding something like more color coding, different fonts along simple clues displaying the intent of the choice, something along the lines of PS:T, would help alot.

Bioware could have made something impressive with the wheel had they used more resources to it. Now it works like basic dialog tree. Player and NPCs stand around, wave hands, are shot or get collar grabed. Boring as hell. The dialog wheel itself would allow quick responces and thus making it possible to have more lively conversations. ME actually managed to do this at few portions of the game but most of it felt like done in a hurry, choices hardly caused any genuine consequences for the way dialog would proceed.

You really dont even need the wheel from ME but it would make it far more easier to convey. Quick and easy to read responces would allow more quick paced dialog and situations. The rest is just using resources for animation and camera work. It costs money but freaking hell, I have to pay a crapload to see two dialog vendors stare at each other while flooding me with innane banter when simple investments could make it far more interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0c3BkhprZ0 - Shepard Lumbergh, missing the dialog wheel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUuHbI5n ... re=related - *snore*

The chat with Liara could have used more details. Have her working on the lab while talking and when she starts to panic, expensive lab kit ends up on the floor with dicks hitting ass and leg. Gunnery Chief Williams could have kept working with the guns when you talk to her and dialog choices would affect the way she works. Press her on the family issues and and the pace of the work becomes aggresive. Slowly work your way inside her mind and she actually stops working while going all emo angst with her nationalist mindset.

Minor details themselves such would give so much to dialog already.
 

Virtz

Educated
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
89
I just remembered what game I was talking about previously - Facade. You can get it here.

I sure as hell don't see exactly something like this appearing in an RPG any time soon (considering the work that's been put into just one scene), but a much more simple version, with pre-defined answers, simpler AI and no/less voice-overs would probably be do-able in some form for a broader range of NPCs.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
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Behind you.
JarlFrank said:
It could also help in making combat less lethal - example: You fight bandits. Bandits seriously hurt you, and you try to offer them a surrender. Or you fuck them up and they offer to surrender.

Ever read La Morte de Arthur? In nearly every fight, there's a point where one combatant asks the other, "Do you yield?" I'm still shocked that to this day, no CRPG has implimented that.
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
Although not quite to the level that you are suggesting, that was one of the things that pleased me about the Gothic games. Not every fight was to the death. It allows a lot more options for RP and storytelling.

Oh, didn't Teudogar have some kind of yielding and surrender of enemies? I remember that not every fight was to the death in that too.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
Ever read La Morte de Arthur? In nearly every fight, there's a point where one combatant asks the other, "Do you yield?" I'm still shocked that to this day, no CRPG has implimented that.

In Oblivion the player character (only) could yield, but that was only there because you'd be guaranteed to be attacked by the wayward AI routines of friendly NPCs. :D
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Fez said:
Although not quite to the level that you are suggesting, that was one of the things that pleased me about the Gothic games. Not every fight was to the death. It allows a lot more options for RP and storytelling.

Oh, didn't Teudogar have some kind of yielding and surrender of enemies? I remember that not every fight was to the death in that too.

I only played the demo, but yeah, I once got beaten up badly by some bandits, my char got unconscious, and after a while he woke up again, wounded and stripped of most of his equipment.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Staff Member
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Well, I'm not really talking about getting beaten unconscious and robbed. Lots of CRPGs have had that. I'm talking about stopping combat for a conversation about combat by saying, "Do you surrender?" or some various other things.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
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Messages
33,171
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yeah, but it only worked with NPCs that weren't hostile from the beginning [like bandits] and guards. You go to bandit camp, you get fight to death.
 

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