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Torment The Tides of Numenera alignment system

What's your impression of the Tides alignment system?

  • Positive

    Votes: 28 41.8%
  • Negative

    Votes: 7 10.4%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 32 47.8%

  • Total voters
    67

Jools

Eater of Apples
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Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Insert Title Here Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
I think the way each "Tide" encompasses the whole spectrum of a trait (for ex : indigo is justice but also the "well intentioned extremist" end of it) is very interesting. I find this representation more appealing than PoE's score based reputation/personality.

How do you cope "well intentioned extremist" with the traits mentioned above, specifically "equity" and "compromise"?
 

WhiteGuts

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
2,382
The Indigo Tide represents not only justice and fairness; it might also mean a desire for the greater good or an "end justifies the means" mentality.

In the context, "end justifies means" sounds like "well intentioned extremism".
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
it's the actions that matter, not the motivations
Isn't this at odds with the inclusion of Tide-aspects like Passion, Admiration, Compassion, etc.?

I'm not sure what to make of it. It will come down to how it's handled in the game, it could turn out to be brilliant or a complete dud.
 

hiver

Guest
its going to be a toggle option of course.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tuluse

Arcane
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Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Yeah..everything changed. Entirely different game. If you had not played it once already, you'd be hard pressed to tell it was the same one. Especially given how hard it was to define yourself as the guy that nukes the town, or the guy that does not. The dilemma almost made me quit playing.
Well you might as well have because that wasn't any of the games I mentioned.

Did your siding with the former prisoners alter your game experience in Vegas perhaps? Didn't to me, just logistics. Two less NPCs to sell loot to. Depthless..depth.
I didn't say a *single* decision would give you a completely different game, that would be stupid.

I know what you mean, but..depends on the person i guess.
I don't think you do. Start Fallout 1 and murder some children and then tell me how your game goes.
 

tuluse

Arcane
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
To be honest, the alignment system seems pretty weird to me. I am not sure what exactly they are trying to achieve here, but the color scheme seems a bit iffy. I am not sure I understand how they plan to use it, or for what intent, but right now it seems to be different just for the sake of being different. I don't mean just from D&D's system, but from how we think about people. I mean, what exactly does it mean to be an "indigo person", or a "blue person"? What is the driving concept that somehow unifies those people? Is someone who cares about justice as a virtue indigo? Is someone who cares about justice as an important part of society indigo?

I guess maybe they are going for some kind of weird aspect of the game. Like, the tides are the effect on humanity of some kind of artifact or something. But still, I would be wary of any kind of story where all the characters don't feel quite human. Personally, I think something more like Ultima's virtues would work better if the pointof the alignment system is to measure what your PC holds as important.

By the way, people always lambaste D&D's alignment system. In my opinion, the system works pretty well for what it was designed to do: separate the characters into sides of a cosmic war. The point of alignments in D&D isn't do define human behavior, to say how your character should be portrayed, to foster any kind of philosophical dialogue or anything like that. The point of alignment is to break up fantasy forces, so you know who helps or fights who. And also to determine how some spells and items affect some characters. In fact, the original system didn't have the good/evil differentiation. It was just law against chaos. Of course it has changed over the years, but I think the system works best if you don't give the alignment any kind of behavior. Chaos or order is just your side in the conflict, not a world view.
Colin has actually said they intentionally don't want to assign motivations to the player or even try to understand them. The Tides are meant to measure actions only. So there is no blue person but a person who acts in blue ways. So someone who catches wrong doers and gives them justice, finds a compromise situation between to factions, would get Indigo points.
 

hiver

Guest
Yeah..everything changed. Entirely different game. If you had not played it once already, you'd be hard pressed to tell it was the same one. Especially given how hard it was to define yourself as the guy that nukes the town, or the guy that does not.
Try AoD. That one would fit the bill more.
 

Alex

Arcane
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Colin has actually said they intentionally don't want to assign motivations to the player or even try to understand them. The Tides are meant to measure actions only. So there is no blue person but a person who acts in blue ways. So someone who catches, wrong doers and gives them justice, finds a compromise situation between to factions, would get Indigo points.

So how do you figure if someone is acting in a red way, or a gold way, or whatever, if not by intentions? I mean, the indigo thing could even work because it is basically aligning yourself with the justice system, but the other four seem pretty much about your world view, and not about your actions.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
So how do you figure if someone is acting in a red way, or a gold way, or whatever, if not by intentions? I mean, the indigo thing could even work because it is basically aligning yourself with the justice system, but the other four seem pretty much about your world view, and not about your actions.
How can a video game know your intentions? All it knows is the actual actions you take. Thus, they have decided that's all they will track.

Edit: also a major theme of the game is legacy. It's about how others perceive you and what you did to change the world, not about what you were thinking at the time.
 

trais

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
So instead of actions giving you +lawful or +chaotic and +good or +evil alignment points like in e.g. NWN2 you get +red, +blue, +silver, etc. tide points?

I guess it will work, but revolutionary it is not.
 

tuluse

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Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
So instead of actions giving you +lawful or +chaotic and +good or +evil alignment points like in e.g. NWN2 you get +red, +blue, +silver, etc. tide points?

I guess it will work, but revolutionary it is not.
You're right it's not, it's evolutionary.
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
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How can a video game know your intentions?
35-Torment_2007-11-02_22-49-57-09.png


:M
 

TedNugent

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
6,363
I think it's problematic in the sense that it subdivides these categories which aren't mutually exclusive.

Just one example: passion and justice in a Paladin.

Passion is red and justice is Indigo.

Will you be able to tag two spectra with one action or straddle two spectra? I don't know that I necessarily agree with the categories and I'm interested to know how they affect your alignment. I'm guessing that it plots you based on 5 different axes, but that wouldn't necessarily make any sense visually since the spectra aren't necessarily placed next to each other based on relation like a traditional two-axis cartesian graph.
 

Jools

Eater of Apples
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The Indigo Tide represents not only justice and fairness; it might also mean a desire for the greater good or an "end justifies the means" mentality.

In the context, "end justifies means" sounds like "well intentioned extremism".

Only, in real life, "end justifies the means" usually translates to "ruthless fanaticism" and is in direct contrast to "justice and fairness and greater good" more often than not.
 

Mask

Literate
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
14
Where is my chaotic evil? :(
Red and Silver? Passion and Action with Power and Fame?

For that matter, I wonder if trying to play Chaotic Neutral would mess the Tides up. Or maybe it would just be all Red all the time.
 

Mask

Literate
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Where is my chaotic evil? :(
Red and Silver? Passion and Action with Power and Fame?

For that matter, I wonder if trying to play Chaotic Neutral would mess the Tides up. Or maybe it would just be all Red all the time.

I thought Red was more of a chaotic good than anything else, oh well.
The language used for the Tides seems very specific. You can be Passionate about killing your neighbors dog for shitting on your lawn as you can be about stopping injustices. At least, that's how it reads to me.
 

Eddas

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Where is my chaotic evil? :(
Red and Silver? Passion and Action with Power and Fame?

For that matter, I wonder if trying to play Chaotic Neutral would mess the Tides up. Or maybe it would just be all Red all the time.

I thought Red was more of a chaotic good than anything else, oh well.
The language used for the Tides seems very specific. You can be Passionate about killing your neighbors dog for shitting on your lawn as you can be about stopping injustices. At least, that's how it reads to me.

If that is true it should be a pain in the ass to pull this off, but could be amazing if implemented right. One can always dream...
 

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