The Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon

[Jasede]

Are you remembering that the last two circles were not made by Zerthimon, but by The Nameless One?

You should not take what is said in the last two for truth quite so easily, as it was the Practical Incarnation (I think) who wrote these two.

Edit: I am not 100% sure about this, but I firmly remember we debated this a few years ago.

 

[Helton]

Thus, if we assume for a moment that Zerthimon's will was not subverted by the illithids, but he merely submerged it

I don't have a problem with what you say after making this assumption, but its an assumption we cannot make. I feel like I've iterated this but maybe not very well.

Dak'kon doubted Zerthimon's motives. Nothing in the eighth circle would remove this doubt.

You cannot assume Zerthimon's will was his own -- in the best interest of his people -- and then show how the eighth circle justifies his actions. Your argument is directed at the deed, but the deed is not in question.

Now if the deed is shown to contradict Zerthimon's own philosophy, clearly it is a condemnation of his motives.

But the opposite is not true. An interpretation of the eighth circle, however valid, which agrees with the Pronouncement does not vindicate Zerthimon. That interpretation makes the eighth circle neutral.

Which is fine, except we know the eighth circle is not neutral. It has a very profound impact on Dak'kon.

Do you get what I'm saying? I see its kind of subtle, but I'm arguing very specifically how Dak'kon interprets things. What is Dak'kon's mindset? What's his beef? What interpretation here could resolve his dilemma?

Jasede, likewise, I'm concerned with the interaction with Dak'kon and Dak'kon's reaction. The actual validity of the circles isn't so important. He clearly accepts them.

 

[Qwinn]

Honestly, I think all of Dak'kon's doubts are kinda baseless. After all, third circle:

"By enduring and quenching the fires of his hatred, he allowed Arlathii Twice-Deceased to think him weak. When the time of the Rising came, Arlathii was the first of the *illithid* to *know* death by Zerthimon's hand and die a third death."

Arlathi was the illithid that tortured Zerthimon. If Arlathi really imposed his will upon Zerthimon, I don't think Zerthimon could've killed Arlathi first.

Qwinn

 

[SCO]

I agree with what Helton is saying. That part was very confusing for me. Besides that i think that the unbroken circle feels somewhat incomplete for two reasons:
1) Metagamming. There is a low level spell that Dak'kon has that is not on the unbroken circle, that magic missile analogue. This might indicate that originally the circle was supposed to have 9 pieces.
2) It was the practical incarnation that did the circle. What would be his purpose in weakening Dak'kon and still have in reserve a way to strengthen him again? Possibly to keep him as a "servant". But the circle was Dak'kon's and after giving it to him, it would be difficult to change it again.
So he may have kept the contradiction on the circle so he could influence Dak'kon's study according to what was more advantageous at the time. He was a persuasive guy.

 

[peanuts]

lol

 

[laclongquan]

Damn necromancer!

Oh well, there's nothing to it but to nurture the weak creature that is this new revenant.

back to the discussion, we were talking about Dakkon's doubt. He suspected that Zerthimon is influenced by Illithids, and the Pronouncement of Two Skies was the result of that. And in thinking so you have no idea of the meaning of the last two cirlces.

I suspect a different thing. Whether Zerthimon is mincontroled or not is immaterial. What matter is that TNO need to calm that doubt in Dakkon.

The Missile of Patience teaching is to stress the importance of endure and patience.

The Zerthimon's Focus is to stress that it's immaterial whether Zerthimon's strategy at that moment was true or not, influenced or not. It stress that you set a course true to your heart and follow it to the end, regardless of hardship. That the *focused will* is the final mean in Zerthimon's teaching.

The doubt that you said, of whether Zerthimon is mincontroled or not, that is just the surface doubt. What matter is that Dakkon suspect deep inside his heart that he's manipulated into making his pronouncement, much like Zerthimon was influenced into making the pronouncement of two skies. And as that war was the result, his present misery is the result of that manipulation. So he hesitated, and doubting whether follow this course of action is true or not.

So the Practical One give him a teaching of patience and a stress on keeping on a course of true heart. I think PO prepare these two circles in preparation for when Dakkon doubt his course and want to abandon him.

The final result of Dakkon shrug of his doubt and resolve to follow to the end, well, that is the result the Practical One was planning for.

There, I said it.

 

[SCO]

When i played this, the only conclusion i reached was that Dakkon is quite stupid and/or easily led by TNO.

The contradiction inherent to the words TNO spouts and the circle is evident.
Maybe it was incomplete and/or there was supposed to be more alternative paths/responses and we only got one.

Edit: Wow.



At least i'm still consistent.

 

[Hegel]

When i played this, the only conclusion i reached was that Dakkon is quite stupid and/or easily led by TNO.

The contradiction inherent to the words TNO spouts and the circle is evident.
Maybe it was incomplete and/or there was supposed to be more alternative paths/responses and we only got one.

Edit: Wow.



At least i'm still consistent.

I think it wasn't the circle being incoherent but rather Dakkon being doubtful and imposing his own interpretation over Zerthimoon's teachings, he coloured the circle with his own beliefs.

Dakkon couldn't know the teaching of Zerthimoon because he didn't know himself, ironic how TNO ( a being as far from completion as it gets) managed to understand the teachings far better than Dakkon ever could.

Were these really the words of Zerthimoon? Who knows. TNO could have been Zerthimoon himself as far as we're concerned.

 

[Volrath]

Remember Qwinn?

Qwinn

 

[Angthoron]

I think it wasn't the circle being incoherent but rather Dakkon being doubtful and imposing his own interpretation over Zerthimon's teachings, he coloured the circle with his own beliefs.

Dakkon couldn't know the teaching of Zerthimon because he didn't know himself, ironic how TNO ( a being as far from completion as it gets) managed to understand the teachings far better than Dakkon ever could.

Were these really the words of Zerthimon? Who knows. TNO could have been Zerthimoon himself as far as we're concerned.

This was my own impression as well when playing Torment and I think Dak'kon or high int/wis/cha TNO actually mentioned this at some point, or at least I recall someone explicitly making the connection; unless it just clicked together in my head with a loud enough thud.

 

[Havoc]

Wikipedia:
"When in the Fortress of Regrets, talking to the Practical Incarnation reveals that he forged the Circle of Zerthimon owned by Dak'kon. As such the teachings contained within it may not be accurate. The Practical Incarnation says that they may be true, but he doesn't know."

 

[Overweight Manatee]

It would be most ironic if the teachings became true because Dak'kon believed in them. Or is it only in Sigil specifically where that can happen? Can't remember some of the PS:T lore. Could something that is believed to be true inside Sigil be true inside Sigil while being false to the outside?

 

[Glyphwright]

This post contains character (as opposed to plot) spoilers for Planescape: Torment. The thread could easily involve plot spoilers. Don't read if you haven't played the game.

I never quite understood Dak'kon's Unbroken Circle. The noteworthy circles are 3, 4, 6, and 8.

In the third circle Zerthimon submerges his will to hide the growing resistance from the illithids. Dak'kon suspects this circle is a lie. He believes Zerthimon became an agent for the illithids.

The fourth circle tells the story of Vilquar the traitor. Dak'kon thinks this circle of out of place because it, to a degree, glorifies betrayal. He suspects it is there only to justify Zerthimon's proclamation of two skies.

In the sixth, Zerthimon fractures the gith ranks. Dak'kon feels the circle was wrong in it's reasoning, that Zerthimon did this not to save the gith from themselves but to save the illithids due to his secret allegiance.

The eighth circle speaks about the strength of unity. About not abandoning a path because the path will be hard. If anything this circle should condemn Zerthimon, yet it does the opposite for Dak'kon. When he's told of this circle his faith is restored.

Why?

Obviously, Zerthimon believed that the warrior queen he served was wrong in declaring war against all races rather than just their illithid oppressors, and didn't back down just because plenty of Gith chose to follow her way. Duh. Have you even *read* the Unbroken Circle?

 

[Wikipenis]

I was going to go into elaborate detail about why glyphboi and helton are full of idiot juice but to be fair the nature of Gith's relationship to Zerthimon is not clear.

The only way to explain anything to the codex is in the form of internet memes so I will put things into more familiar terms.

Gith = Hitler. He really hates those pesky jews more than anything, and when the jews run out the rockets to new york will hit and then every single corner of earth will fall and there will be a reich forever and ever lololol.

Zerthimon = Rommel. Now he hates the commies with a passion and would love to crush those fuckers more than anything, and possibly the jews as well. But he has this thing called a hint of sanity that makes him see there's no way in hell that they can crush the jews and the commies, and hold all of africa and then face the US on the whole other side of the planet. Even if they could it would take 100 years and kill most of th world's populance.

Now lots of people feel like rommel, maybe even most of them, but they can't just sit back and do nothing because there's a war on and all and they are part of germany.

So it's sort of like a rebellion or something, since no way in hell will the chaotic evil bitch Gith let some lawful neutral guy just secede from the reich with half the german populance. So it's not like he is already his own nation and decides to stab her in the back it's that unless he wants to be under Gith's thumb and doesn't mind a doomed and disastrous war against all reality then he has to fight to break away.

Once Da'akon has it spelled out for him he realizes his makes complete sense and there was no other reasonable course of action a rational person could take.

 

[SMD]

It's complicated, but not that strange. The unbroken circle has to be taken as a whole, and it helps that the Githyanki have fallen under another form of slavery, as predicted by Zerthimon's philosophy.

Dakkon does not believe Zerthimon endured the torment in the 3rd circle to come out the same as he was before. He was supposed to be broken according to Dakkon's reasoning, not *knowing* himself again and leading his people astray.

The understanding the "The Power of One" leads him further astray. Gith gives Zerthimon and The People the *knowing* of war, and in so doing she leads them to freedom. She should be the true hero, right?

This causes him not to understand the meaning of the 6th circle. "Balance in all things" eluded Dakkon. Without balance, there is no freedom. Gith is a slave to her hunger to take and destroy. She has come to not *know* the meaning of being of "The First People."

The 8th circle is pivotal because it shows Zerthimon *knows* himself still. There is no division in his mind. He was not broken on the pillars of silence. He shows how *knowing* leads to unity, and how unity can accomplish anything.

Zerthimon's focus allowed him to stay true to the path, even as he was tortured, betrayed, overwhelmed by Gith and later, when Gith attempted to lead them astray.

 

[DraQ]

It's complicated, but not that strange. The unbroken circle has to be taken as a whole, and it helps that the Githyanki have fallen under another form of slavery, as predicted by Zerthimon's philosophy.

Dakkon does not believe Zerthimon endured the torment in the 3rd circle to come out the same as he was before. He was supposed to be broken according to Dakkon's reasoning, not *knowing* himself again and leading his people astray.

The understanding the "The Power of One" leads him further astray. Gith gives Zerthimon and The People the *knowing* of war, and in so doing she leads them to freedom. She should be the true hero, right?

This causes him not to understand the meaning of the 6th circle. "Balance in all things" eluded Dakkon. Without balance, there is no freedom. Gith is a slave to her hunger to take and destroy. She has come to not *know* the meaning of being of "The First People."

The 8th circle is pivotal because it shows Zerthimon *knows* himself still. There is no division in his mind. He was not broken on the pillars of silence. He shows how *knowing* leads to unity, and how unity can accomplish anything.

Zerthimon's focus allowed him to stay true to the path, even as he was tortured, betrayed, overwhelmed by Gith and later, when Gith attempted to lead them astray.

Sounds pretty good, actually, but I haven't played PS:T in ages.

Welcome, BTW.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

I knowing the teachings of Codexia I have become stronger.

 

[deus101]

I was going to go into elaborate detail about why glyphboi and helton are full of idiot juice but to be fair the nature of Gith's relationship to Zerthimon is not clear.

The only way to explain anything to the codex is in the form of internet memes so I will put things into more familiar terms.

Gith = Hitler. He really hates those pesky jews more than anything, and when the jews run out the rockets to new york will hit and then every single corner of earth will fall and there will be a reich forever and ever lololol.

Zerthimon = Rommel. Now he hates the commies with a passion and would love to crush those fuckers more than anything, and possibly the jews as well. But he has this thing called a hint of sanity that makes him see there's no way in hell that they can crush the jews and the commies, and hold all of africa and then face the US on the whole other side of the planet. Even if they could it would take 100 years and kill most of th world's populance.

Now lots of people feel like rommel, maybe even most of them, but they can't just sit back and do nothing because there's a war on and all and they are part of germany.

So it's sort of like a rebellion or something, since no way in hell will the chaotic evil bitch Gith let some lawful neutral guy just secede from the reich with half the german populance. So it's not like he is already his own nation and decides to stab her in the back it's that unless he wants to be under Gith's thumb and doesn't mind a doomed and disastrous war against all reality then he has to fight to break away.

Once Da'akon has it spelled out for him he realizes his makes complete sense and there was no other reasonable course of action a rational person could take.

I invoke Godwins Law.

 

[SMD]

Sounds pretty good, actually, but I haven't played PS:T in ages.

Welcome, BTW.

Thanks! I also haven't played it in ages, but I friend of mine and I had a debate about this once. He took Gith's side, which led me to have to feel out what Zerthimon actually did. In first looking at the circle, it seems Zerthimon's contributions were the smallest. Looking closer, Zerthimon's insights created a well-rounded philosophy that enshrines freedom and knowledge of both the self and everything else.

The answers the Unnamed One gives names the tenets about as well as they can be, but I'll give it a try:

*Knowing* = Understanding. The basic building block. More *knowing* is always better than less...but...

Obsession(1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th circles) is to be avoided at all costs. Obsession closes your eyes to what you *know* in favor of what you desire

Curiosity(2nd circle) can overcome not *knowing*

Enduring(3rd circle) which is linked to Patience(7th Circle) can see you through any difficulty

The Power of One(5th Circle) is the ability to share your insight with others and similarly empower them(Zerthimon did this as well with the Scripture of Steel)

Balance(6th circle) is the ability to avoid extremes, keeping a clear perspective on the whole picture, which links to the 4th circle's warnings

and finally, Unity. Action taken without inner conflict, choices made that do not lead to regret.

It's pretty cool actually, if a little too Zen for my tastes

 

[Xor]

Too bad the practical incarnation made it all up.

 

[DraQ]

I think sixth (and to a certain degree fourth) circle are pivotal to (heh) *knowing* why Githyanki were led astray - whether devoted to serving or destroying them Gith wouldn't have *known* freedom or themselves, as in either case their existence and actions would only be means, and Illithids - the goal, whereas for Zerthimon getting rid of Illithids was merely instrumental to achieving freedom and *knowledge* of self.

 

[SMD]

Too bad the practical incarnation made it all up.

*Laughs* The Practical Incarnation didn't write the unbroken circle- he didn't understand the first thing about it! He fell to Vilquar's Eye- his obsession with "Beating" his enemy in the Fortress of Regrets blinded him to everything that mattered.

This was even his words on the subject:

“The Unbroken Circle? That collection of lies? Yes, it was a week’s work to forge such a thing — it was necessary to make it so he would cease doubting himself.”
“You made it? But you told him —”
“Perhaps they carry some truth — I know not. I know that they were tedious writings, but the words were enough to give him faith.”

Dakkon's unbroken circle is no different than what the other Zerths learn. Dakkon referenced it when you have the option to talk to the other Zerth outside the Hall of the Godsmen. The ones who learn the whole become "diamonds" while the ones who reach the wrong conclusions fall to the side like Dakkon or the Zerth woman you confront.

As Dakkon tells you outside of the tattoo parlor- the Practical Incarnation saw things, but he saw them only in the context of how they could be his tool toward his goal.

I think sixth (and to a certain degree fourth) circle are pivotal to (heh) *knowing* why Githyanki were led astray - whether devoted to serving or destroying them Gith wouldn't have *known* freedom or themselves, as in either case their existence and actions would only be means, and Illithids - the goal, whereas for Zerthimon getting rid of Illithids was merely instrumental to achieving freedom and *knowledge* of self.

The 6th circle was profound, and you are right to link it to the 4th circle. The 5th circle plays into it too.

"[Gith] spoke of not merely defeating the *illithids,* but destroying all *illithids* across the Planes. After the *illithids* had been exterminated, they would bring war to all other races they encountered.

In Gith's heart, fires raged. She lived in war, and in war, she *knew* herself. All that her eyes saw, she wanted to conquer."

In the first circle, it comments about The People and their world their knowings...and how the Illithids took all of that away from them.

Zerthimon saw the path to freedom leading back to those things. Away from the false worlds, from wars, suffering...back to *knowing* and what was theirs. They were empowered now.

Gith saw the path as leading outward, to defeating all threats to them and subduing all those they could. They would become the new Illithids, and none would challenge them.

The pronouncement of Two Skies was unnecessary. They were already "The People" and "The False People."

 

[SCO]

Suck it dragon age.

 

[DraQ]

Suck it dragon age.

Well, to be fair, I've heard that derp roads *did* seem to drag-on for ages.

 

[Sceptic]

Well, to be fair, I've heard that derp roads *did* seem to drag-on for ages.