Preview There is no dialogue in Oblivion according to 1UP

[Twinfalls]

By 'made the difference' I didn't mean DF's dialogue was therefore great/the best it could be. It was just the difference between getting some feeling your character was actually 'speaking' (in a limited way) in DF, rather than completely mutely choosing topics (MW).

 

[galsiah]

My issues are these (with Morrowind - I hope Oblivion fares better):
(1) Lack of choice in dialogue. Almost all the choices (if not all) were quest branching decisions. There were few of these, but when they did come up they were signposted. Mostly your choice had no long term consequence. When you weren't making a quest branching decision you had no choices. Any long game sequence with no real choice is going to get boring. Sure I can use my imagination - I can do the same in a bare prison cell. It doesn't make the prison cell interesting in itself.

(2) Lack of control over exactly what is asked about. A few of the clearest examples:
"Vivec" - am I asking about a false god or a city? What if the npc responds to the wrong question?
"Services" - am I asking whether that npc offers training, am I asking about town services, or [LGNPC reference] am I perhaps implying that the npc is a prostitute?

There were many other instances where the player's tone / wording will matter, but he is expected to work it out from a one phrase choice. You're often sent to retrieve books / enquire about Dwemer artifacts etc., but have no way of knowing whether your character is going to ask something subtle and clever, or put his foot in his mouth.
For instance:
"Chimarvamidium"
Does this mean:
"What's a Chimarvamidium Sirilonwe?"
Sirilonwe: "I've never heard of such a book."
Player: "Did I mention a book Sirilonwe? Perhaps you're hearing things."

Does it mean:
"I was talking with good o' Edwinna, and she mentioned you've got some secret stash hidden somewhere. Chimarvamidium I think she said. I dunno."
Sirilonwe: "I've never heard of such a book."
Player: "Oh yeah - a book. Sure. Now where is it you old crone?"

Or perhaps:
"Wasn't Chimarvamidium the name of a golem? "The Hope of the Chimer" I think they called it. I think it was given by Sthovin the Warlord to Karenithil Barif as part of a peace agreement. I could have sworn I read that somewhere, but I tend to sell on all my books once I'm done with them - not very scholarly I know. "
Sirilonwe: "I've never heard of such a book."
Player: "No - a golem. Have you been listening to a word I've been saying?"

Even when there is no consequence to a dialogue choice (not exactly uncommon), the idea that the player can come up with his own wording is flawed. The player can only come up with convincing wording if he is sure that such wording will correspond correctly to the NPC response. If you're saying "Balmora", then that's not too large a problem. If you're trying to get information from a quest target NPC it can totally break the player's immersion [sorry]. On a number of occasions in Morrowind I've wanted to enquire subtly about a quest objective without raising suspicion.
Often enough the response given has been to the question:
"Come on npc X. I know you've got item Y. Cough it up now or things will go badly for you."
But that's not what I wanted to say!!. Sadly the screen doesn't hear my swearing, and everything continues as though my character was going for this year's "Mr. Unsubtle of Vvardenfell" prize.

The only way to avoid putting your foot in your mouth in Morrowind is never to raise any topic which could possibly be interpreted differently from your wishes. That's very restricting. Any "freedom to imagine what your character says" is illusory, since the response might be to a different question.

This is: A Bad Thing.


Also, on player "character" in Morrowind, there isn't really any. All characters can do everything and "max" every skill and attribute. There is very little character development through dialogue. You can't even base character around stats over the long term, since almost any character will eventually move towards 100 in everything.
Even if you don't get close to 100 in everything, it is clear enough that's where you're headed. I found it totally uninspiring to know that if I strived really hard I could eventually get to a stage where my character had lost all individuality, and was the same as every other high level character.

 

[Elwro]

As for the "Gifted" debate: I took this trait for the first time while playing the game for the nth time last Summer. I never felt the need for that trait. On the other hand I always took Finesse.

 

[JanC]

In Morrowind, each character has 20 or so topics of conversation, of which maybe one is unique and important. But you have to read ALL the options to find that one. BORING.

A better system might be:

Most NPCs don't say anything much. You know that they are unimportant, and you can safely ignore them.

Some NPCs act as the town guide, in the same way as most Morrowind characters do.Also ignorable.

The final category is NPCs who actually have a role, and something to say. They don't bother telling you about the local services and all that crap so that you can actually get to the point with them.

You don't actually NEED a full Bioware tree system to cure the awfulness of Morrowind dialogues. Sure, it'd improve the game to have full interaction. But the most important thing is to remove the tedium of being unable to tell quickly whether the NPC is has anything to say or not.

 

[galsiah]

But the most important thing is to remove the tedium of being unable to tell quickly whether the NPC is has anything to say or not.

True, but I think I'd approach "Removing the tedium" in a different way. This problem in Morrowind was categorized by two factors:
(1) It took a while talking to npcs to figure out they didn't give you any quests.
(2) This was a boring process.

I think the problem is (2) - not (1). I have a reasonable expectation that this at least will have been addressed for Oblivion. There have been many "ONLY 1000 NPC'S!!!!111!!??" threads on the TES forums. If there has been any comment from the devs it's been along the lines of "All npcs are unique in Oblivion. We are not going to add a load of filler npcs just to make up the numbers.". Presuming this is true, speaking to each npc should at least feel unique - even if it doesn't feel very involving (and it might - you never know).

"Solving" (1) instead would lead to a situation where most npcs were ignored and the few wearing "Talk to me about QUESTS" t-shirts would get brief, functional dialogue. That doesn't make the dialogue right - it effectively just removes it.
If npcs sound like an encyclopedia then that needs to be addressed by making them sound more human and unique - not by removing their dialogue.

Your solution would perhaps make Morrowind a better game than it was, but not a better RPG. I certainly think it's not an ideal solution.

EDIT:
One thing I really liked about the LGNPC mods for Morrowind was that they gave all characters interesting and unique dialogue whether or not they had any quests / quest involvment. This meant that you could learn interesting things about people and towns without automatically knowing that you were going to be involved in a quest. It made the people seem more real because the world didn't revolve around you all the time. Sometimes there would be interesting situations leading to quests; other times there would be conflict or difference of opinion, but without your having any involvement.

I found this a little odd at first "npcs with unique dialogue but no quests?! - What's going on?" but after getting used to it everything feels so much more real. There's a world around you full of people with differences of opinion and difficulties, and a lot of it has very little to do with you. This transition from seeing most npcs as possible quest starting devices, to seeing them as actual characters in their own right made a big positive difference.

 

[HardCode]

On the other hand, not much fun in automatically knowing if an NPC has something important to say just by eyeballing his dialog options. Perhaps some other communication method to "warm up" the NPC first. Perhaps a system similar in MW, where each time you successfully "Admire" someone, their available dialog options start to show one by one.

Just enacting dialog, seeing no choices, and moving on is lame.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

I've never taken Gifted or Skilled. I have taken Bloody Mess and Bruiser together. I guess that makes me an idiot, right?

 

[kingcomrade]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Fallout's "speech bubble" style of dealing with unimportant NPCs.

Pan, heh, that's a combination I can understand

 

[Mantiis]

I've never taken Gifted or Skilled. I have taken Bloody Mess and Bruiser together. I guess that makes me an idiot, right?

Clearly

 

[Lumpy]

In Morrowind, each character has 20 or so topics of conversation, of which maybe one is unique and important. But you have to read ALL the options to find that one. BORING.

A better system might be:

Most NPCs don't say anything much. You know that they are unimportant, and you can safely ignore them.

Some NPCs act as the town guide, in the same way as most Morrowind characters do.Also ignorable.

The final category is NPCs who actually have a role, and something to say. They don't bother telling you about the local services and all that crap so that you can actually get to the point with them.

You don't actually NEED a full Bioware tree system to cure the awfulness of Morrowind dialogues. Sure, it'd improve the game to have full interaction. But the most important thing is to remove the tedium of being unable to tell quickly whether the NPC is has anything to say or not.

Lines you've already heard are grey, new ones are yellow.

 

[dettociao]

I hated the wiki dialogue of Morrowind, but I am OK with the wiki dialogue of... the Exile series. And it seems to me that Oblivion dialogue will be more like the Exile - style wiki! Which makes me happy.

Its funny really - when I first read about Oblivion my anticipation meter went off the scale, I admittedly bought the hype, I wanted to believe Then I was brought down to Earth by the Codex and spent some time dwelling on the apparent inadequacies of the game. But now, I've reached a sort of middle ground - I have no great expectations, but I'm anticipating Oblivion anyway, and I'm going to enjoy it for what it is, and not what I would like it to be.

I agree completely.

 

[Drain]

Lines you've already heard are grey, new ones are yellow.

Also

Another note on the dialogue selection stuff -- in Oblivion, you can now tell when an NPC has additional stuff to say on a subject, even if you can't get it out of him/her at that moment -- the dialogue option won't "grey out" after you've selected it, which basically gives you a clue to try to bribe or use the persuasion skill.

Which is a continuation of Bethesda's strategy of making it easier for player to find "fun stuff".

 

[Micmu]

Another note on the dialogue selection stuff -- in Oblivion, you can now tell when an NPC has additional stuff to say on a subject, even if you can't get it out of him/her at that moment -- the dialogue option won't "grey out" after you've selected it, which basically gives you a clue to try to bribe or use the persuasion skill.

Which is a continuation of Bethesda's strategy of making it easier for player to find "fun stuff".

This is the ultimate moron indicator so far. :shock:

 

[Section8]

Another note on the dialogue selection stuff -- in Oblivion, you can now tell when an NPC has additional stuff to say on a subject, even if you can't get it out of him/her at that moment -- the dialogue option won't "grey out" after you've selected it, which basically gives you a clue to try to bribe or use the persuasion skill.

Patronising.

 

[galsiah]

Patronising.

And probably hard-coded. It might be impossible to get rid of even for mods.
I don't know why I'm surprised at this. It is depressingly moronic.

 

[Twinfalls]

Great. Instead of actually writing responses well, so that any intelligent player can infer that the NPC might have more to say on a given topic, Bethesda decides it's better that the player is automatically told.

And heaven forbid that the player might have to actually remember to chase up certain topics themselves....

 

[Lumpy]

Another note on the dialogue selection stuff -- in Oblivion, you can now tell when an NPC has additional stuff to say on a subject, even if you can't get it out of him/her at that moment -- the dialogue option won't "grey out" after you've selected it, which basically gives you a clue to try to bribe or use the persuasion skill.

Which is a continuation of Bethesda's strategy of making it easier for player to find "fun stuff".

This is the ultimate moron indicator so far. :shock:

Why?

 

[Twinfalls]

read my post above, Lumpy

 

[Section8]

Well, Lumpy, I'd have thought that intuiting who to persuade and how to do it would be the "fun" and challenging part of Oblivion's diplomatic side. With that feature, NPCs become a pay-to-wiki system, where you have to plug in some coins to hear all the information that's posted in no uncertain terms on the front page. Being diplomatic in Oblivion is likely to be no more of a challenge than signing up for a premium service on Gamespot so you can access all of the content they have listed.

To analogize it to other portions of the game, it's like "always use best swing" in combat, or automatically selecting the best spell for a specific monster based on resistances/vulnerabilities, even though the player nor player character knows them. It's built-in metagaming.

But, if you're questioning why that's any more moronic than the countless other incidences of "idiot proofing" Oblivion, then I see your point. Oblivion is sounding more and more like a weekly hire than a purchase.

:idea:

Or, maybe buying the Russian localised version might actually provide some form of challenge, even if it won't look quite as good.

 

[Lumpy]

Well, Lumpy, I'd have thought that intuiting who to persuade and how to do it would be the "fun" and challenging part of Oblivion's diplomatic side. With that feature, NPCs become a pay-to-wiki system, where you have to plug in some coins to hear all the information that's posted in no uncertain terms on the front page. Being diplomatic in Oblivion is likely to be no more of a challenge than signing up for a premium service on Gamespot so you can access all of the content they have listed.

To analogize it to other portions of the game, it's like "always use best swing" in combat, or automatically selecting the best spell for a specific monster based on resistances/vulnerabilities, even though the player nor player character knows them. It's built-in metagaming.

But, if you're questioning why that's any more moronic than the countless other incidences of "idiot proofing" Oblivion, then I see your point. Oblivion is sounding more and more like a weekly hire than a purchase.

:idea:

Or, maybe buying the Russian localised version might actually provide some form of challenge, even if it won't look quite as good.

Oh. I didn't read Desslock's quote.
So it won't grey out when you can get him to say more things. That IS moronic.

 

[Sycandre]

I think Oblivion audience will be mainly bellow 16 (see the official forum poll in the "community discussion"), that is, kids who like to be told nice stories in the evening before going to sleep. Bethy will be the kind parent who'll read the story to those kids. You wouldn't want them to think before sleeping?! this would only stress those poor kids!

They already had problems finding NPC, but if they also have to think about how to discuss with them, and what they may have to do, you'll break all those poor children immersion!

Why asking for a complexe dialog system if you already have long sword combos and power block?

 

[Chefe]

I can't wait to take my sword and do a spin side slash, combo a Super Dragon Fireball into a Shin-Uppercut, and then pull off a Spinning Skeleton Driver for maximum damage. Then I'll Dragon Fireball when I have more distance to build up my meter, which will allow me to cancel an Elf Upper into Super Shin Dragon Fireball Elf Smash for the win.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Great. Instead of actually writing responses well, so that any intelligent player can infer that the NPC might have more to say on a given topic, Bethesda decides it's better that the player is automatically told.

And heaven forbid that the player might have to actually remember to chase up certain topics themselves....

I understand where you are coming from, but still I don't quite see the point here, as it is functionally equivalent to a dialogue tree system - there is no "figuring out who might have more to say" there either - in fact its stil a little more than a classic implemenation of dialogue trees in that you are still left with figuring out how to best get to the information and needing the skill to do it.
Indicating that there is more information through dialogue sounds great in theory, but if you really think about it, it sounds like it would be both hard to and probably tend to be equally moronic - either you are so subtle that you risk a large numbe even of smart players don't get it, or you are so blunt it makes people cringe. And I prefer their solution to blindly clicking every topic.
Also remember that if its not greyed out, it means you can click it and get a response - most likely it will be a variotion of "I don't trust you enough to tell you more". That's not particularly moronic per se.
I am way more concerned how interesting or "moronic" the actual persuasion minigame will turn out, and I have doubts that it will be in any form well enough embedded into the game to actually flesh out your character in the dialogue and receive appropriate reactions and conseqeunces from NPC's.

 

[Drain]

While I would prefer seeing indications that an NPC has something more to say through NPC responses themselves (-Did you see anything strange on the night when X was killed? -Errr....No) they could have at least implemented intuinion checks based on int/wis/speechcraft, putting after NPC response something like(looks like he is lying) or (looks like he is not telling everything).
And definitely you should not be able to know that in the future NPC will have something important to say on the subject.

 

[voodoo1man]

On another topic: "sell her into slavery"

I dont remember selling someone into slavery as part of the main quest; had a quick look at a faq and couldnt find it either. Care to enlighten me DarkUnderlord?

It was that one quest where you had to buy a slave girl and pass her off as a black elf (or whatever) princess for that dumb-ass piece of shit black elf tribal leader. I would have much rather beaten the shit out of him and made him give me the ring. Of course it ended up with her all flapping her dumb eyes at you "oh, my marriage is going sooo well, we're really happy." In reality a man like that who has trouble finding a woman by himself is probably a drunken piece of shit wife beater. Just look at those guys that go for the mail-order brides. Hell, the elf guy even looked and talked like one. So you were forced into buying a sex slave for a drunken wife beater (you couldn't just kill the stupid slave driver, she gave you some dumb-ass quests to do). Way to go, Bethesda. That's probably the most mysogynistic quest in any game ever.