Editorial Tim Cain on making a single-player MMOG

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Tags: Tim Cain

<p>Tim Cain, famous for a couple of RPGs which were not successful enough and working as design director at Carbine Studios currently, <em>explains how he's trying to make a classic single-player RPG storyline work in a massively multiplayer context.</em></p>
<blockquote>
<p>In single-player RPGs, the designer has an advantage in being able to have the world revolve around the player. Everything the player does can be reflected in the world, because the player is the prime mover. And when the player gets to the end, the storyline is over. That model doesn't work in an MMOG for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there are thousands of players. It's hard to feel special and unique when there are thousands of others doing the same thing, Cain said.</p>
<p>On top of that, there are issues with stories that span multiple zones. Zones can be skipped in some MMOGs, and players can overgrind an area of a zone and become too powerful for the rest of the zone. There are plenty of failed attempts to tell MMOG stories. Designers tried cramming the story into "lore bombs" but found players would click through the written text without reading it.</p>
<p>Having instances makes the world seem disjointed, Cain said, and it undermines the shared-world experience of seeing so many other players around the gameworld. MMOG players also dislike the action being ground to a halt for the telling of a story, and they're not always interested in a story that ends. Finally the sandbox approach that works well in games like Fallout is tough to do in an MMOG because emergent stories based on thousands of players are incoherent.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.gamespot.com/news/6281121.html" target="_blank">Read it all here.</a></p>

 

[DalekFlay]

The continuing problem I have with "my MMO is single-player friendly I swear" is that you still want me to be constantly online and pay your stupid monthly fee, or even worse buy parts of the game as I need them.

Unless it has a "free" offline mode I don't really care how single-player friendly your MMO is.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Doing a story in any meaningful sense in an MMO is impossible. This should really be a no-brainer. Just give it up.

 

[zeitgeist]

"What I'm trying to do is make an evolutionary step for an [MMOG], not a revolutionary step."--Cain, explaining that he just wants to bring a single-player vibe to the MMOG genre.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The WoW themepark model already uses a single-player game as a base. And the solution to pretty much every problem he presented in that article is "stop using the WoW themepark model, it's horrible". It's obvious that it's much easier to design a single-player game with a chatroom, especially if you manage to hype it in such a way that you still get enough people to pay $15/month for it, but he's inventing a fictional problem and then inventing half-baked solutions to it that have been attempted a dozen times already (and didn't work). I guess the article is supposed to be some kind of a justification for just going with the flow and following the general direction of the "MMO" industry, but is he trying to fool the audience or himself?

 

[Azrael the cat]

I can't believe some folks believe this guy is so infallible that they assume his praise of Oblivion 'must' be in jest. He's trying to go for the mass-market money just like everything else. Expect lots of talk of 'streamlining' from him (what is a theme-park mmorpg without the need for raid-organisation and group-strategy?) as the game gets close to release.

 

[jiujitsu]

Tim can do no wrong. That's the first rule of ze Codex. So, if Tim Cain tells you to play an MMORPG and like it you better fucking do it. Dickwad.

 

[Dr. Doom]

The usual run of the mill responses by the usual ignorant dickheads that inhabit this place. Turbine got it right with Asheron Call 1 and 2. The lore was the number one aspect while the gameplay remained in the background in addition to be completely revolved around the purpose to deliver a believable personal experience in the context of that lore not the opposite like in all the other mmorpgs included Everquest.You can understand now why Asheron Call 2 failed. They reinforced even more the storytelling aspects while the gameplay remained too much in the background. What Turbine say with their mmorpgs is that there is a way to make a mmorpg that tell a story, a big epic in a style that influence the experience of the player as a single as in a group.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

How about a MMORPG with great mechanics instead?

 

[Azrael the cat]

The usual run of the mill responses by the usual ignorant dickheads that inhabit this place. Turbine got it right with Asheron Call 1 and 2. The lore was the number one aspect while the gameplay remained in the background in addition to be completely revolved around the purpose to deliver a believable personal experience in the context of that lore not the opposite like in all the other mmorpgs included Everquest.You can understand now why Asheron Call 2 failed. They reinforced even more the storytelling aspects while the gameplay remained too much in the background. What Turbine say with their mmorpgs is that there is a way to make a mmorpg that tell a story, a big epic in a style that influence the experience of the player as a single as in a group.

They made a real effort with Lord of the Rings Online to try to become known as 'The story mmorpg', and their playerbase got into that to some extent. When I checked it out, the playerbase had its fair share of morons and kids, but also a surprising proportion of reasonable folk - immeasurably better than the WoW playerbase. And rightly or wrongly, it seemed that they viewed LoTRO as the 'story / small group' mmorpg as opposed to WoW's 'raiding / grinding / no top-end content outside of raiding guilds' monolith.

And yes, I respect what Turbine was trying to do - between that and their free model of D&D online, they're probably my most respected mmorpg developer...

...and there's the problem. I still don't think that the games worked all that well, and certainly not from a story sense. Yes, they were more fun than WoW despite having incredibly similar mechanics. But they were still a mmorpg that just happened to fire lore bombs at you every now and then.

It struck me that even a developer who WANTS to do something story-driven, with a player-base who wants it, just doesn't have much room to deliver. It's a game model that doesn't encourage story.

Yes you can abandon go down the Ultima Online route, or the Eve route. But with the Eve model you lose the single-player-friendliness - you're contributing as a worker-bee to some monolithic guild and that's the extent of your involvement in the universe unless you take up spreadsheet-fu as a second fulltime job. And not because the game is difficult either - just sheer number of hours needed to keep up with the mmorpg-grinding-addicts as they all form a self-replicating circle that just gets more and more time-consuming and destroys their lives.

Ultima Online type mmorpgs can work really well, but are massively dependant on having a good playerbase. And that's why I can't see them working at an AAA-title level in the current era. When UO ruled the roost, the players were a combination of LARPers and PnP gamers who were interested in building a gaming world. The system just isn't built to entertain nor handle the legions of ADD-addled kiddies and grinder-monkeys that make up the modern AAA-title mmorpg audience. And even when that game DOES work really well, it isn't a story-driven game by any means. More of a sandbox world with player-driven content. Which is awesome. But completely dependant on having a good playerbase. Which these days is as good as saying 'it would be awesome...if it didn't fucking SUCK'.

 

[Silellak]

Ultima Online type mmorpgs can work really well, but are massively dependant on having a good playerbase. And that's why I can't see them working at an AAA-title level in the current era. When UO ruled the roost, the players were a combination of LARPers and PnP gamers who were interested in building a gaming world. The system just isn't built to entertain nor handle the legions of ADD-addled kiddies and grinder-monkeys that make up the modern AAA-title mmorpg audience. And even when that game DOES work really well, it isn't a story-driven game by any means. More of a sandbox world with player-driven content. Which is awesome. But completely dependant on having a good playerbase. Which these days is as good as saying 'it would be awesome...if it didn't fucking SUCK'.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The WoW themepark model already uses a single-player game as a base.

I'm honestly not sure if this is because WoW is emulating single player games...or so many recent single player games are emulating WoW.

 

[zeitgeist]

Ultima Online type mmorpgs can work really well, but are massively dependant on having a good playerbase. And that's why I can't see them working at an AAA-title level in the current era. When UO ruled the roost, the players were a combination of LARPers and PnP gamers who were interested in building a gaming world. The system just isn't built to entertain nor handle the legions of ADD-addled kiddies and grinder-monkeys that make up the modern AAA-title mmorpg audience. And even when that game DOES work really well, it isn't a story-driven game by any means. More of a sandbox world with player-driven content. Which is awesome. But completely dependant on having a good playerbase. Which these days is as good as saying 'it would be awesome...if it didn't fucking SUCK'.

And this is pretty much why no post-WoW MMO will ever be even half as good as pre-WoW MMOs (even the silly themepark ones!), regardless of its mechanics and design.

I'm honestly not sure if this is because WoW is emulating single player games...or so many recent single player games are emulating WoW.

The themepark MMO model is mainly emulating single player games in the sense of the entire level treadmill being single-player oriented - every player has the same sets of quests at their disposal, it doesn't matter that another player just did the same quest a minute ago, etc. It provides almost the same experience to every player, one by one they're funneled into the same zones, doing the same things, killing the same boss monsters, buying the same equipment when they level up... it's a single player game for all practical purposes except chat, the economy, PvP arenas and raids (and perhaps some other social elements).

The trend you've mentioned - of recent single player RPGs emulating various aspects of MMO design - is a separate phenomenon, and it's quite disturbing.

 

[mondblut]

<p>On top of that, there are issues with stories that span multiple zones. Zones can be skipped in some MMOGs, and players can overgrind an area of a zone and become too powerful for the rest of the zone.

Lolwut? Tim cannot into Wizardry?

In before he discovers level scaling as a cure for all balance illnesses

 

[Metro]

Cain gave an example of the world-spanning story with a boss in a keep on a mountaintop. The keep wouldn't be instanced, but it would be very difficult to get to, and if a low-level player somehow obtained a flying mount to get there, he would be welcomed by very high-level enemies that serve as a deterrent.

In another example, the high-level content would be instanced, but NPCs would help players through a locked door to the content only if they had proven themselves worthy. To help foster aspirational players, Cain said when players complete major world story tasks, they will be featured in an in-game newspaper that all the other players of the game can read. Additionally, NPCs will have specialized reactions based on player performance and the choices they make in the finale.

That's essentially what they do in WoW (minus the specialized reactions, although there are basic reactions based on faction standing in WoW) -- I don't see how he thinks these proposals are any sort of evolution. Also, with their recent addition of 'phasing' technology WoW is actually able to pull off a decent enough feel of timeline/story/location progression. It's nothing major but it's more advanced than what Cain is talking about and... it already exists.

WoW is a decent enough single player experience if you stop and read the storylines... and if it didn't have a monthly fee.

 

[CrimHead]

Tim Cain is about to make you his bitch.

 

[Harold]

Cain said his team's solution was to put a big world-spanning story in the game, but to put it at the very end.

What the...?

But when they tested the game, they found players didn't understand that the big story was ever coming. To remedy this, Cain said players should pick character backgrounds at the start.

If a player's background says he wants to rescue his kidnapped sister, then the character has a sense of purpose from the outset.

Hey guys I can larp that ma sister has been kidnapped and i'm killing all these boars so I can be high-enough level to rescue her. Whoah, this is a real deep story-driven rpg.

Cain said it will play out like a single-player RPG at the end of an MMOG as a reward for players who hit the level cap.

Yep, that's it: Tim Cain has gone full derp.

 

[Texas Red]

We're putting in strong focus in to the single player aspect of our new MMOG, though the players will occasionally want to join up in a group and engage in the more traditional MMOG aspects which we are really proud of. There is a lot of story, lore and character development and a lot of different classes, loot and skills. The combat is made to feel more visceral and streamlined, though more hardcore players will appreciate the great strategic choices and tactics we are concentrating on. We are really working on giving our players a traditional feel, reminiscent of the legendary games such as Baldur's Gate. And though, it will be a spiritual successor to these hardcore RPGs, new players will be delighted to see that the controls and the combat system have been streamlined for easier and more fast paced experience.

 

[Harold]

But will we be able to fart on other players' heads?

 

[Alex]

I can't believe some folks believe this guy is so infallible that they assume his praise of Oblivion 'must' be in jest. He's trying to go for the mass-market money just like everything else. Expect lots of talk of 'streamlining' from him (what is a theme-park mmorpg without the need for raid-organisation and group-strategy?) as the game gets close to release.

Come on, Azrael. Mostly, I really like your posts, but I can't help but think you are just trolling here. You just need to go read his comments about oblivion in that one to see he was joking. He talks about having to live with the consequences of his actions and then goes to show there were no consequences (especially the part about being cured of vampirism).

I don't have much hopes for this game now. I was really hoping he was shooting for some emergent storytelling aspect. The game he described doesn't sound much fun, diverging very little from the current mmorpg model. But whatever. I am a little let down, but It is not like he is saying this is better than all his older stuff or anything. He decided to try his luck with MMOs and that is what he is doing. We are not the target audience of this game. It is not nice, but we shouldn't get "butthurt" over it either.

 

[1eyedking]

Tim Cain is a bear-lover.

'nuff said.

 

[hiver]

Tim can do no wrong. That's the first rule of ze Codex. So, if Tim Cain tells you to play an MMORPG and like it you better fucking do it. Dickwad.

 

[bhlaab]

I don't know, to me it still just seems like putting monster truck tires on a boat.

 

[Mangoose]

Anyways for people that didn't actually read the article (i.e. everyone here), Tim Cain's big plan is to have the single player storyline at the END of the game instead of at the beginning. In other words, hit the level cap, and you do your single player quest shit. I'm kinda (very) drunk, so I have no idea if that would work (probably won't). But yeah just to summarize it up for you all because VoD sucks at his job ( i love you ).

 

[CraigCWB]

"What I'm trying to do is make an evolutionary step for an [MMOG], not a revolutionary step."--Cain, explaining that he just wants to bring a single-player vibe to the MMOG genre.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The WoW themepark model already uses a single-player game as a base.

It's not "absolutely ridiculous". It's what people wanted from online games right from the start. And original EQ did a pretty decent job of delivering on that. DAoC made a credible attempt too. It seems to me that when WoW came out that all ended and MMOs (just dispense with the "RPG" part post WoW) started catering to 12 year olds who just wanted to plow through high critter count dungeons in record time, Diablo style.

I admire Tim Cain for wanting to add some sorely needed depth and complexity to online gaming but I don't think it's going to happen. The industry is heading in the other direction.

And by the way, I doubt he's talking about trying to turn MMOs into Bioware style interactive cinema. This is Tim Cain we're talking about. That's not his thing at all.

PS-I think you're on the wrong track with your rants about WoW. Just because it's an easy-mode game without any meaningful content doesn't make it a single-player game scaled up. Who in their right mind would play WoW as a single-player game? There isn't any MMO that's good enough to make it as a single-player game, and there never has been.

 

[Killzig]

Anyways for people that didn't actually read the article (i.e. everyone here), Tim Cain's big plan is to have the single player storyline at the END of the game instead of at the beginning. In other words, hit the level cap, and you do your single player quest shit. I'm kinda (very) drunk, so I have no idea if that would work (probably won't). But yeah just to summarize it up for you all because VoD sucks at his job ( i love you ).

So those of us who would rather eat a bullet than play an MMO will have to suffer through a month or two of grinding toward the cap to check out Tim's contribution to the MMO world? Sounds great.

 

[Metro]

Anyways for people that didn't actually read the article (i.e. everyone here), Tim Cain's big plan is to have the single player storyline at the END of the game instead of at the beginning. In other words, hit the level cap, and you do your single player quest shit. I'm kinda (very) drunk, so I have no idea if that would work (probably won't). But yeah just to summarize it up for you all because VoD sucks at his job ( i love you ).

Oh, I read it and if you read my post you'd realize I had read it (irony, indeed). Nothing he proposes is any different than what is contained in WoW (and I'm sure other MMOs). WoW has several storylines the most significant of which happen at level cap and pave the way into the instances/raids/level cap solo quests.

So, I'll say again: I fail to see the 'evolution' in either his theory or the mechanics he proposes. Now if he's just going to tack on a fully fleshed out single player RPG at the end of a level grind then that is a fairly stupid idea. Just make a single player RPG and be done with it.