Editorial Tim Cain on making a single-player MMOG

[oscar]

The system just isn't built to entertain nor handle the legions of ADD-addled kiddies and grinder-monkeys that make up the modern AAA-title mmorpg audience.

If, worse case scenario, it just became one massive PK-fest wouldn't that be fun in it's own right? Struggling to build a character capable of surviving the constant attacks (that result in permadeath if you die).

It might even shake up the playerbase and let them evolve by seeing the benefits in working together (as death is now a real consequence).

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I'd love to see a MMORPG that cuts down the whole grinding thing. Preferably with a level cap on level 6 (with further advancement only by gaining more abilities but not HP, to hit, etc.)

 

[1eyedking]

Tim Cain needs sex. Urgently.

Codex Bears, attend the call!

 

[Harold]

Anyways for people that didn't actually read the article (i.e. everyone here), Tim Cain's big plan is to have the single player storyline at the END of the game instead of at the beginning. In other words, hit the level cap, and you do your single player quest shit. I'm kinda (very) drunk, so I have no idea if that would work (probably won't). But yeah just to summarize it up for you all because VoD sucks at his job ( i love you ).

Anyway for morons who didn't actually read the thread (i.e. the quoted retard above), what you said in the quote above has already been pointed out and commented upon in posts previous to yours. So here's a free tip, if you don't know what to add to a thread, you're better off going with

 

[Major_Blackhart]

People who came here after Troika games fell and are ragging on Cain, go fuck yourself.

God Cain has no equals nor betters.

 

[kazgar]

We're putting in strong focus in to the single player aspect of our new MMOG, though the players will occasionally want to join up in a group and engage in the more traditional MMOG aspects which we are really proud of. There is a lot of story, lore and character development and a lot of different classes, loot and skills. The combat is made to feel more visceral and streamlined, though more hardcore players will appreciate the great strategic choices and tactics we are concentrating on. We are really working on giving our players a traditional feel, reminiscent of the legendary games such as Baldur's Gate. And though, it will be a spiritual successor to these hardcore RPGs, new players will be delighted to see that the controls and the combat system have been streamlined for easier and more fast paced experience.

Just quoting in appreciation.

 

[SerratedBiz]

What the fuck kind of flip-flopping my-game-will-please-all bullshit propaganda is that?

It's got easy, streamlined combat, but filled with strategic, hardcore options. We've designed it as a singleplayer MMO, but just wait until you play it with more people because it's really awesome that way. It should remind you of early Commodore games, but just wait until you plug in that Wii controller.

 

[Azrael the cat]

What the fuck kind of flip-flopping my-game-will-please-all bullshit propaganda is that?

It's got easy, streamlined combat, but filled with strategic, hardcore options. We've designed it as a singleplayer MMO, but just wait until you play it with more people because it's really awesome that way. It should remind you of early Commodore games, but just wait until you plug in that Wii controller.

Uh...you DO realise that it was something Dark Individual wrote to pull the piss out of Cain's hyping of his upcoming mmorpg? As in, it ISN'T what the interview actually says.

Have we sunk that low that folks are now mistaking other Codexers' posts for actual developer statements. That people are now just reading the post one above them, and not actually taking a look at the original post, let alone the original link, that they are commenting on...

There are few things more unintentionally amusing than someone trying to mock a developer for being moronic, without realising that the comment they're mocking was actually just some other forum members' post...

 

[SerratedBiz]

It was an honest mistake, that's what I get for trusting the words of fellow 'dexers.

Of course, all that was necessary was saying 'DI made it up'. There's no need to act like it's the decline of mankind or like it's the first time it's happened. I've caused it to happen myself before and I see no reason for anyone to disbelieve whatever's in a (quote).

 

[Pablosdog]

NCsoft is pretty infamous for releasing mmorpgs that are light on content and full of microtransactions.

Enjoy your popamole bullshit disguised as a "Immersive Single player style experience"

Tim Cain has worked on some amazing games, but we all know what happens when an inferior company takes control of a creative designer. They suck the life and soul out of him. What else does he have to prove to us anyways?

 

[Severian Silk]

The following are my criteria after having played a handful of MMOs and not really liking any of them:

#1. It has to make sense thematically for there to be thousands of heroes and adventurers running around at one time.

#2. Players need to have a measurable impact on the game world by exerting control over it, no matter how small the impact or how many the players.

#3. The game has to remain fun.

Are all three possible? EVE Online has the whole strategic aspect going on with player-owned corporations, though I'm not exactly sure to what extent players actually exert control over the game world... And, I could envision something like "M&B Online" where roving bands of players fight to conquer kingdoms, eventually gaining supremacy. But would it still be fun?

I can't really see such a game working without permadeath as well as some choice on the starting location of the next character. Maybe players could also be awarded "points" when their characters die that they can spend on their next character. (For instance, the dead character could be the parent of the next character, and the new character could gain some attributes and/or equipment from the dead parent, as in some roguelikes.) Eventually, after dying enough times a player should theoretically end up with a pretty tough starting character that might make the next play-through more endurable.

The "Monster Mode" in LOTRO seems at first glance to be a little like a step in this direction, though I haven't actually seen it in action and so can't say for sure. (I also saw someone recently referring to a similar concept as "MMO 2.0".)

But, could even this system be abused by powergamers, thereby ruining the game for everyone else? How willing are casual players to participate (and lose more often than not) in a highly competitive environment where maybe they have to take orders from someone else? Would it just delay the inevitable crappyness of the online experience? For everyone or just for some? Would such a system negatively affect the companies' networks and overall latency?

 

[Severian Silk]

Here's a quote of Richard Garriott from back in 2003 concerning instances in Tabula Rasa:

Single-player games are great, and I love them. They have a great feature. Your life is very special. You are the hero and you get to save the whole world. You live a truly charmed existence, and around every corner you are finding new things. You're blissfully unaware of your neighbor who is also playing the game. (...) [Tabula Rasa] is like Disney World, which has a hub. You can go to shops and get food, but when you get on the boat for the pirate ride, you're in your own version of reality. Once the ride starts, you are blissfully unaware of the boats in front of you and behind you. Then when you finish, you are [back] in the hub, and you can navigate over to the next place.

 

[Norfleet]

And the fact that this game sank like a stone should serve as a warning to others.

 

[Mastermind]

And the fact that this game sank like a stone should serve as a warning to others.

Guild Wars didn't and they used instances too. Which is how I prefer it and why it's the only MMO I bothered with.

 

[Azrael the cat]

And the fact that this game sank like a stone should serve as a warning to others.

Yahtzee had a reasonable point in his Tabula Rasa interview - why promote a mmorpg on the basis of eliminating the grind, when (for reasons most of us can't fathom) the people who buy long-term subscriptions for mmorpgs all seem to love the grind? It seems a lot like trying to sell a mmorpg to people who don't like mmorpgs.

These kind of games often make a double whammy: they aren't really as reactive as single player games, and they don't function well as massive multiplayer games.

Even if it can be played satisfactorily as a single player game, that's not enough. Tabula Rasa never really made out a case as to why you wouldn't, say, go play a REAL single player game. That's always going to be a problem when you say 'hey, this different genre is going to be a lot more like that other genre you like' - why not just keep playing the games that fall ENTIRELY within that genre you like? Why pay a monthly fee when the biggest selling point is that the game 'isn't all that gimped'?

Guild Wars DID make that sell. It offered a single player game that was only mildly gimped, and then offered quick and competitive strategic multiplayer. Unlike traditional mmorpg multiplayer you didn't need to grind to 'do the fun stuff', and you didn't need to PvE for endless hours in order to PvP. And you didn't pay a monthly fee. In that sense, it was similar to your traditional multiplayer FPS system, except with a team rpg with a strategy level of choosing abilities/classes. And I can't think of a competitor off the bat that has a similar system.

 

[MetalCraze]

Tim Cain will tear your Avellone's ass into thousand small little pieces.

Current Codex heroes make shitty shooters for 12 years old morons with a gamepad and saliva dripping out of their mouths.
Tim Cain was making complex worlds with complex and non-linear gameplay.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

Tim Cain was making complex worlds with complex and non-linear gameplay.

All by himself, without using his hands!

 

[MetalCraze]

Well Avellone did Planescape all by himself too.
That includes the setting or so I've read at the Codex a few years back.



(but fuck you - Tim Cain was indeed doing Fallout all by himself for the half of a year or so)

 

[Kz3r0]

Tim Cain will tear your Avellone's ass into thousand small little pieces.

Current Codex heroes make shitty shooters for 12 years old morons with a gamepad and saliva dripping out of their mouths.
Tim Cain was making complex worlds with complex and non-linear gameplay.

Keep up the good fight Comrade.

 

[Rhalle]

Come on, guys. It's not like an OMG is anything other than a name for taking the singleplayer game box out of people's hands and turning any play at all into a subscription and cash-shop service.

(Like Valve will do with DOTA2, having tested the waters with TF2:Headwear Simulator.)

This new 'genre' has nothing at all to do with DnD nerds turning their personal computers into a vehicle for a new and exciting way to experience DnD.

It's about whoring out NWN's name recognition for the monthly fees and microtransactions.

Anything that comes out of Cain's mouth to the contrary is horseshit--just horseshit required for the paycheck.

 

[Pablosdog]

Well Avellone did Planescape all by himself too.
That includes the setting or so I've read at the Codex a few years back.



(but fuck you - Tim Cain was indeed doing Fallout all by himself for the half of a year or so)

He was developing the engine(which used gurps, which was later abandoned). Much of the design work came from Boyarsky and Anderson as well.Those three are all equally important.

That being said, won't change the fact that I'm skeptical given that this is an mmo and it's being published by a company notorious for bugs,micro-transactions and mediocre gameplay.