Review ToEE reviewed at GameSpy

[Crazy Tuvok]

I don't really want an epic story, just something that keeps me interested in the game.

I'll go further than that - I explicitly do not want another epic story. I am sick to death of them. This is not to suggest that I want to play the Sims or somesuch, merely that I am tired of every game having the same cliched overblown universe at risk plot.
One of the nice things about PnP is that a character can be powerful and influential without the player feeling like the world is all about them. At least that has always been something I have liked.

Similiarly I really like that ToEE has a cap of lvl 10.

 

[Araanor]

Ok, I'll change my statement. People should really read EVERYTHING a developer states not just the good stuff, or the obvious hype which that statement is obvious. What did you expect him to say, NWN OC is gonna suck, and isn't as good as the Bg series? LMAORTFL

Since it's Bioware, I don't expect much. But I want honesty. We've been through this before, remember the reply Tim gave to that interviewer on D&D RT? NWN and IE games are hybrids. Twist it however you like to make it seem like he was attacking someone, it's the truth nonetheless. Did he state TOEE would be longer than Arcanum? More non-linear than Fallout?

What I EXPECT out of a respectable developer is honesty. They could have down-played the OC. But instead they felt the need to hype it to make it look good compared to the old games. Make better games instead for fucks sake.

Of cours enot. Most of NWN's wekanesses should ahve been well known BEFORE the game was released., Shame on the cosumer for not paying attention.

So the consumer is to blame for reading exactly what's written. That's just dandy.

Otherwise, I agree. A lot of people are building unrealistic expectations and start screaming when it doesn't live up to it.

 

[Jora]

If you a play a game for story you are incredibly stupid.

Thank you.

I play games for the same reason I played Pong 20 years ago because its fun.

That is the reason I played Torment again yesterday. Because it is fun.

RIght now I like playing games like Jagged Alliance 2, MTW and Arcanum, because the fun is not in the story rather in how you play the game.

I love Acanum because it is a combination of a good story, an immersive and original setting, good music and great role-playing possibilities. The combat system sucks and the game is full of bugs but it is still fun.

 

[Jed]

As for NWN being one of the most over hyped games ever? Duh. I coulda told ya that. That's what you get when you have the dumbest people on earth - internet geeks - looking forward to a game, and IGNORING what the devs were stating

Isn't the V-man the same person who has spent the vast majority of his time here arguing with all of us that NWN wasn't overhyped? Boy, this is confusing...or incoherent.

 

[HanoverF]

I don't really want an epic story, just something that keeps me interested in the game. I hate Morrowind mainly because there is nothing in the story that makes me want to keep playing.

I'm not saying that an interesting story is more important than good role-playing possibilities or an interesting world, but the time spent in designing combat mechanics and playtesting lots of battles would be better used in making an original and engaging story.

I think the truly awful combat in Morrowind plays a bigger part in that then the story.

Doesn't matter much to me if its mostly a dungeon crawl if the combst is complex tactical turn based goodness

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

I love Acanum because it is a combination of a good story, an immersive and original setting, good music and great role-playing possibilities. The combat system sucks and the game is full of bugs but it is still fun.

I loved Arcanum, but I never found the story all that compelling, except for the neat twist at the end. The world is rich, the NPCs fleshed out etc but I thought the main storyline rather standard stuff. Didn't detract for one second how much I enjoyed the game tho.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What I EXPECT out of a respectable developer is honesty. They could have down-played the OC. But instead they felt the need to hype it to make it look good compared to the old games. Make better games instead for fucks sake.

I absolutely agree, there is a difference between marketing games and lying about games. NWN, MOO3, and Lioheart's developers lied and made statements that are simply not true and were made only to create false expectations and mislead consumers into buying these games.

What did you expect him to say, NWN OC is gonna suck, and isn't as good as the Bg series?

How about the truth? That OC is like an introductory campaign to show how everything works (or not :wink: ), that the main and only product is the editor, that OC is not a stand alone game and should never ever be compared to previous games that focused on the game and gameplay.

 

[ArcturusXIV]

I think even more important than storyline is intrigue and unpredictability. Unraveling a mystery--especially one centered around an unique (and thus unpredictable) plotline--makes the journey worthwhile. Of course, a good story is nothing without good presentation. Even more important than a great plot is NPCs with personality, and a world that oozes atmosphere.

Of course, "mystery" plots don't lend themselves well to replayability. That's where plot options, power leveling, multiplayer (not applicable in this case), and strategic combat come into play: they are the crux of replayability.

 

[Volourn]

Actually, VD, they did say that. It's one of the reasons why the OC is made to be playble both playable sp and mp. They always said the OC was going to be a differetn gaming expereince than BG2. Heck, BG2 fanboys may disagree; but NWN OC has more in the way of role-plkaying than BG2 has. BG2 crushes it in story. As for Bio stating that NWN OC would eb better than BG2; I hope certain people in this thread can obvious see that that is an opinion, and a goal they may have had. Doesn't mean the goal completely succeeded. And, in the end, it depends on a person's perspective as at leats some people feel that the OC is better than BG. You can't really lie about some thing so obvious about opinion.

XJEDX, you should rememebr more than what you want to remember. IIRC, I stated that was overhyped by the fans because they only read the good things about the game that BIO posted; but ignored the signs that would be negatives - respawn, eveerest, etc., etc.

Go figure.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for Bio stating that NWN OC would eb better than BG2; I hope certain people in this thread can obvious see that that is an opinion, and a goal they may have had. Doesn't mean the goal completely succeeded. You can't really lie about some thing so obvious about opinion.

There is a difference between an opinion and a statement that could be taken as a promise. It's really hard to tell them apart, but here is a clue: when a person in charge of a project comments on a project, it's s statement, when I say NWN sucks, and you say it doesn't, these are opinions. :wink:

Actually, VD, they did say that. It's one of the reasons why the OC is made to be playble both playable sp and mp. They always said the OC was going to be a differetn gaming expereince than BG2

You know, Volourn, you should definitely think about becoming a lawyer, you love to play with words When people read about "one of the reasons" and "different experience" they failed to realize that it's "the only reason" and "much worse experience" which is, of course, their own fault for taking things literally. What a bunch of fools!

 

[Killzig]

I'm torn between Jora and triCritical here, if the game has great gameplay you'd typically say who cares about the story? Right... wrong. Not me, I get extremely aggravated if a game has decent gameplay but fuck all story. I mean yea, playing is fun but once you strip down the dressing that is the story the game mechanics' novelty will only last so long.

 

[Volourn]

Wel.. I did take journalism in College... Take that as you will.. Despite the fact my typing suskcs. Heh.

 

[Ausir]

Yay! Another thread transforming into a Bioware bashing thread!

 

[Zapp$ter]

@ Sabotai: I'm not sure if you are still interested but here's the link to a good online retail website that delivers american games to places all over europe. http://www.sps-systems.co.uk/trolleyed/141/index.htm

I had that site recommended to me by alot of people on various forums and have in turn recommended it to others. I haven't heard a bad word about them and their serivce has been good. I ordered IWD2 from them and the game was delivered a few days later. Most of their prices are reasonable although I've just looked at the main page and they are selling TOEE at £44.99 (ouch!)


The game sounds like fun. But I think I'll play the demo before deciding for certain whether to purchase it. One guy at the atari forums was playing it and answered loads of questions on the game and I'm really getting more and more intrigued the more I hear.

Am I right in assuming that the demo is to be made available this friday?
please tell me it isn't on fileplanet only, AFAIK people have mentioned that it might be available on friday on fileplanet.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I mean yea, playing is fun but once you strip down the dressing that is the story the game mechanics' novelty will only last so long.

I agree, story is important. It does not have to be epic or linear, it does not have to be written by [insert your favourite author here], but without one a game becomes a mindless progression from point A to point Z that focuses on your ability to reach point Z in one piece. Having said that, I don't expect ToEE storyline to rival that of War and Peace, well, we all know the storyline one way or another, so I mean the way it's presented. As long as it gives us a reason to be there, a reason to move to the next point, and a bit of room for some role-playing, I'd be happy.

 

[Sabotai]

Thanks for the link Zapp$ter, although I agree with you 44 pounds is too expensive, even for my taste.

 

[Flarnet]

For the love of God, let the european version have the spiral bound manual.

 

[Zapp$ter]

For the love of God, let the european version have the spiral bound manual.

I doubt it will. It will probably be a normal manual packaged in one of them DVD case thingamybobs.

 

[Sabotai]

For the love of God, let the european version have the spiral bound manual.

I highly doubt it has. At my local software store, ToEE is scheduled for release 21 november. Atari is probably busy spiral-removing and shrinking the manual to the usual shitty size. That's probably why the import ones are still very expensive.

 

[Astromarine]

21st Nov? Screw that, import order here I come. :p

 

[Zapp$ter]

21st november? That £44.99 import suddenly seems alot more worthwhile.

Last time I checked on some websites the game is being released here(in the UK) around the early-mid October. I hope it doesn't get delayed or anything.

 

[Tris McCall]

TriCritical wrote:

<<If you a play a game for story you are incredibly stupid....

Last I looked MCA wasn't Voltaire, and Tim Cain wasn't Hemingway.>>>


Believe me, I know where you're coming from. Since I loved Planescape:Torment so much, I think I've got a tendency to overemphasize the artistry that went into the game. In some ways, the story there was little more than a compendium of Planescape cliches: the rogue modron, the demon with the heart of gold, the sexy tiefling, the wacky mimir, the side trips to Baator and Carceri done with the in-and-out expedience of going down to the corner store, etc. And it was crowned by one of the the biggest cliche in all of story-art: the amnesiac searching for his identity, and experiencing dawning horror about his past.

But all that proves is how little exertion is needed to make a game-story that make a player feel like he or she is living through a great drama. Chris Avellone didn't *need* to be Voltaire in order to turn his routine story into a unique and immersive gaming experience. He could be a by-the-numbers fantasy writer and still come up with something engrossing. Story-writers working on role-playing games have a huge advantage that novel writers don't: they don't have to labor too hard to get you to identify with the protagonist. The player *is* the protagonist. With that leg up, it ought to be a given that the stories in RPGs are absorbing. That they so frequently aren't is bewildering to me.

I'd never ask that every new game be akin to Torment. But is it too much to ask that at least *one* new game be akin to Torment?

Tris McCall
www.trismccall.net

 

[triCritical]

Backs up

Let me say that I believe a story adds to a gaming experience, but it itself does not make a gaming experience. I think a CRPG such as Fallout was good based on a lot of things. First off it was fun, had great design and maps, good combat and the ability to immerse your character into the setting by actually progressing through the game in different ways.

What made Fallout a GREAT game? Well that would be the mood, theme, atmosphere, plot and just the general backdrop of the game, which added to the already magnificent and solid mechanics. However, in most instances these peripheals are not enough in themselves to make something good. Case in point Final Fantasy games. WTF would I want to play thes crappy games if I could read the manuscript posted on some losers website. Sersiously, where is the fun in playing Final Fantasy, or is it just an oxymoron. God Forbid something like spontaneous random encounters hindering the progression of the story.

Furthermore, making a game relying on the story alone to lift runs the risk of being complete crap if everything else sucks and people can just not appreciate the story.

I felt the story behind JA2 was awesome, but at the same time completely contrived and cliche (It was probably ment to be). But what made JA2 one the best games ever made wasn't the story! I felt SirTech's other series Wizardry to be very fun, and it was even better that they had a story to go along with it. I really do not want to dis a game for having a story. However, I really do believe that this idealism of having a great story is necessary for a game is complete crap.