Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #6: Meres, Castoff's Labyrinth and Brian Mitsoda!

[tuluse]

When people say they want 2D, they mean pre rendered 3D, or exactly what your example is.

And now I'm done with this.

 

[Blackthorne]

Of course, oldschool "handpainted" 2D could be great too:

Blackthorne, how were these made back in the day?

Well, for this game, Quest For Glory 3 (And for all of Sierra's 256 Color point and click games) They were handpainted on small cards/paper, and scanned into the computer - and stored in engine as images.

For our game, our artists all use different techniques - some work at the native resolution, others paint higher res and reduce it down to fit - most use either Photoshop, The GIMP or PaintshopPro.

This is a video from our game, talking about the development of a background from Quest For Infamy. I worked with the artists, Jason Lamb, told him what I needed, and he drew up a sketch - I approved, and from there he began to paint it - going through several iterations until we got to the final background.



It's definitely a stylized look - a design choice, similar to why a director might shoot in black and white at 4:3 academy ration, or even on 16mm film. Not everyone is going to like it, but I think it produces gorgeous results.

Bt

 

[FeelTheRads]

Actually it is. It was created and rendered in 3D Studio Max 4. it's a bunch of polygons. I even posted a screen shot of the wireframe version.

For a game, it's NOT 3D as long as it's not real-time.

And actually not relevant to my point, which is to show that 3D backgrounds can look quite good in general.

Show me real-time 3D. Not pre-rendered scenes.

Here, one of the better looking 3D RPGs:
http://www.chaos-chronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/CC_february_shot_05.jpg

Looks good. But...
http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2012/10/Project-Eternity.jpg

3D real-time vs pre-rendered 3D. Not pre-rendered 3D vs pre-rendered 3D, which you still don't fucking understand.

The best assumption would be that either hand drawn or computer rendered bitmaps are acceptable. So long as they are bitmaps and not 3D models.

No, what's "not acceptable" is real-time 3D. And since it's apparently very difficult to understand the difference between one and the other, sure, there are plenty who think that the backgrounds are somehow hand drawn. But that's irrelevant. Point is: 2D not real-time 3D. It doesn't matter how that 2D is made, even if it's made by "painting textures on 3D polygon surfaces", which it is.

 

[Semper]

with todays raw power, lighting algorithms, complex shaders and amount of vram there's no real difference between pre-rendered backgrounds and real-time 3d. BUT you have to invest way more money to get the same result within a 3d engine (scene management, asset creation, performance handling). in 2d you can "cheat" your way around with nearly unlimited amount of detail.

that's why almost all rendered images are composited within an image editing program. it's simply faster and cheaper with more control of the end result.

 

[Fryjar]

Brother None: So, considering that funding has slowed down now and you are planning to make a visual representation of the growing maze based on the number of backers, why not also base the number of fathoms on facebook likes or twitter tweets? I'm not a big facebook or twitter fan myself but this seems to be a pretty efficient way to make people aware of the kickstarter that don't frequent gaming websites regularly.

 

[grdja]

Yes game would look nice if it was made in Cry Engine 3 or UE4. It would also cost 30-40 million to make. You can't have real time AAA graphics without AAA budgets or close to it.

 

[Rake]

Actually it is. It was created and rendered in 3D Studio Max 4. it's a bunch of polygons. I even posted a screen shot of the wireframe version.

Here, one of the better looking 3D RPGs:
http://www.chaos-chronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/CC_february_shot_05.jpg

I knew about the game but i have not followed any news and haven't seen any screenshots. They have the best 3D i have ever seen.(FPS don't count) Do you know the budget they are working with? Because it looks way better than DA:O, DA2, etc.

 

[Infinitron]

Actually it is. It was created and rendered in 3D Studio Max 4. it's a bunch of polygons. I even posted a screen shot of the wireframe version.

Here, one of the better looking 3D RPGs:
http://www.chaos-chronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/CC_february_shot_05.jpg

I knew about the game but i have not followed any news and haven't seen any screenshots. They have the best 3D i have ever seen.(FPS don't count) Do you know the budget they are working with? Because it looks way better than DA:O, DA2, etc.

It's not about budget, it's about PC-exclusive.

 

[Rake]

Actually it is. It was created and rendered in 3D Studio Max 4. it's a bunch of polygons. I even posted a screen shot of the wireframe version.

Here, one of the better looking 3D RPGs:
http://www.chaos-chronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/CC_february_shot_05.jpg

I knew about the game but i have not followed any news and haven't seen any screenshots. They have the best 3D i have ever seen.(FPS don't count) Do you know the budget they are working with? Because it looks way better than DA:O, DA2, etc.

It's not about budget, it's about PC-exclusive.

Yes, i didn't thought about that.
The good thing is we can have games without sacrifice, not even the grafics. AAA market has become completely obsolete.

 

[JarlFrank]

Actually it is. It was created and rendered in 3D Studio Max 4. it's a bunch of polygons. I even posted a screen shot of the wireframe version.

Here, one of the better looking 3D RPGs:
http://www.chaos-chronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/CC_february_shot_05.jpg

I knew about the game but i have not followed any news and haven't seen any screenshots. They have the best 3D i have ever seen.(FPS don't count) Do you know the budget they are working with? Because it looks way better than DA:O, DA2, etc.

It's not about budget, it's about PC-exclusive.

It's not about either, it's about being German and situated in Bavaria, where the best fuel comes from.

 

[evdk]

It's not about either, it's about being German and situated in Bavaria, where the best fuel comes from.

They are good in spite of being terribly handicapped by their German origins, not because of it.

 

[jewboy]

Actually it is. It was created and rendered in 3D Studio Max 4. it's a bunch of polygons. I even posted a screen shot of the wireframe version.

For a game, it's NOT 3D as long as it's not real-time

I agree that pre-rendered bitmaps are not 3D. The image I posted was not intended to be an example of a pre-rendered bitmap. It was intended to be an example of what may or may not be possible in an unspecified real time rendering engine. Which engine in particular was not the point. I thought Unity was supposed to be good and not a limiting factor. Now it sounds like it is. Fair enough. There's always Unigine I guess.

Show me real-time 3D. Not pre-rendered scenes

But that wasn't my intent. My intent was just to show that 3D cannot be dismissed out of hand. If it can be dismissed because Unity or even Unigine is not capable of rendering at that level of detail that's another matter. If that's the case I would be happy to add my vote to the poll.

Here, one of the better looking 3D RPGs:
http://www.chaos-chronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/CC_february_shot_05.jpg

Yes, Chaos Chronicles looks good but: http://images.eurogamer.net/2012/ar...0/crysis_3_screen_5___assess_adapt_attack.png

Look good. But...
http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2012/10/Project-Eternity.jpg

I admit that between the two the P:E image looks far better, but that is not necessarily what the choices are. Not being an artist myself, it is difficult for me to judge whether going 2D is really necessary to reach the level of that P:E image or not. If it is necessary in this case then I have no problem with it and may even vote for it if I am feeling sufficiently graphics whorish. All I asked is that those who know more about such things explain, in a coherent and logical manner, exactly why a UV mapped texture with normal mapping (which Unity is supposed to be capable of) cannot adequately substitute for a pre-rendered or hand drawn bitmap.

3D real-time vs pre-rendered 3D. Not pre-rendered 3D vs pre-rendered 3D, which you still don't fucking understand

I do understand the difference between rendering a mesh from within 3D Studio Max and rendering that same mesh within an actual game engine or other real time renderer. The only difference is the capabilities of the renderer, which, again, from my POV as a non-artist is simply an unknown. If the reason that 2D is a better option in this particular case is because Unity isn't good enough as a renderer then fine. Just say that. Ideally as a comment on the 2D suggestion at the inXile forum.

No, what's "not acceptable" is real-time 3D. And since it's apparently very difficult to understand the difference between one and the other, sure, there are plenty who think that the backgrounds are somehow hand drawn. But that's irrelevant. Point is: 2D not real-time 3D. It doesn't matter how that 2D is made, even if it's made by "painting textures on 3D polygon surfaces", which it is.

It isn't difficult to understand the difference. It is the difference between a good renderer and a bad one. So it comes down to game engine comparisons, which AFAICT, you haven't discussed. Well at least until this post to a limited degree by posting a Chaos Chronicles screenshot. Also, why do you say that backgrounds cannot be hand drawn? Of course they can. They can even be drawn on paper and then scanned. The advantage of which is that your artist does not need to know anything at all about computer graphics.

I believe that your hidden assumption/argument is that real time renderers are incapable of producing images like the one I posted. That may or may not be true, but that's an argument you seemed to have been avoiding for some reason. I guess because you remain adamant that the screenshot I posted is not 3D. Or at least not 3D that can be rendered in real time. I was proposing that something like the 3D mesh that I posted might be possible to render in real time with the right engine. Whether Unity is or is not adequate is a separate issue. I was not proposing that a still image bitmap be used instead even though you argue that that is what would be necessary to display an image like that.

Let me be clear. I think 2D vs 3D should be defined by the art assets that the engine uses to display the images on the screen. Technically it's all 2D once the graphics card gets through with it and paints the screen with a bitmap. With 2D art you are working with bitmaps. Whether those bitmaps were created manually by a human (2D artist) or created by a computer rendering of a 3D mesh created by a human (3D artist) it is still 2D. In 3D your art assets consist of meshes, in this case in the form of a .3ds file to be imported into Unity.

 

[Rake]

Yes, Chaos Chronicles looks good but: http://images.eurogamer.net/2012/ar...0/crysis_3_screen_5___assess_adapt_attack.png

Look good. But...
http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2012/10/Project-Eternity.jpg

You understand that the screenshot you linked is from a game with 40+ M$ budget right? The reason AAA cost so much money is one. Grafics. To have such quallity 3D rendered real time demand excpensive engines, a fuckton of artists ant programer's etc. inXile has not 50M$ nor 250 person team.
And the fact is that even that quallity, if viewed from an isometric perpective is not much better than P:E. Which is made with 4M$ and 15 person team. See the diffirence?
It's not about 3D vs 2D. It's that the best 2D is close to the best 3D, minus some things like rotatable camera etc. But the best 2D are affordable, whereas the best 3D are very expensive. If inXile have gone 3D, it will be W2 grafics and not GTA5

 

[Cowboy Moment]

To me, the Chaos Chronicles screenshot looks way better than the Crysis 3 one.

 

[Rake]

To me, the Chaos Chronicles screenshot looks way better than the Crysis 3 one.

Me too. And P:E it's even better. But i can concede that that's a matter of taste and not objective.

 

[tuluse]

It's also a matter of perspective (literally), if you zoomed in Chaos Chronicles to the same point of view as Crysis you would see how they're skimping on things that you don't notice or can't see from a fixed zoomed out perspective.

 

[jewboy]

Well FWIW, after searching for examples of what the Unity engine can do it looks like the ultimate answer is that Unity just isn't a very capable renderer. My inner graphics whore wishes that both Obsidian and inXile had decided to go for Unigine instead. I believe the argument on the W2 forums was that Unity was going to be artist limited, not engine limited, but that appears to be bullshit. With 2D environments those limits disappear.

I'm going to add the rest of my votes to the 2D poll and maybe post some links to the Unity examples that convinced me. It's gotta be better than the utter shit I've seen for most Unity environments. The following video is the one exception and by far the best I could find. Created in 3D Studio Max and then imported into Unity.



There's also this. Supposedly rendered with Unity. Although it's hard to believe. If true, inXile should hire the guy. Except that he already has a job with Blizzard. Damn.

So the best argument to convince skeptics and fence sitters seems to be that Unity is shit. When it comes to eye candy 2D has simply got to be better. In fact it might be nice to also prerender character models from different angles and go back to using high res sprites for that as well (possible stretch goal?). Of course if you did that would Unity be of any use? Maybe tossing out Unity should be a stretch goal in every kickstarter funded game that starts with it. Probably the only way to get decent graphics at higher funding levels.

 

[Infinitron]

My inner graphics whore

There's your problem.

 

[jewboy]

Hehe. Well this whole discussion is basically about graphics whoring. Otherwise why spend the extra money for doing beautiful 2D environments. I have to believe that it will cost more.

 

[Jaesun]

No the problem is, is that he is Drog.

 

[Semper]

I believe the argument on the W2 forums was that Unity was going to be artist limited, not engine limited, but that appears to be bullshit.

the argument for unity was that it's easy to code, there's an integrated asset store, it's flexible and that it works with a proven, linear pipeline. there's no need to create dozens of exporters to get your assets into your game - unity updates the files and reads the native format of the major apps on the fly. that's why you can work with a tight budget and a relatively small team. there's simply no other engine around with the same "capabilities". btw the renderer ain't that bad. of course it's miles behind ue4 or ce3 but who really needs that shit?!

a .3ds file to be imported into Unity.

oh, and .3ds is ancient. it's .max since 20 years

 

[jewboy]

How does Unity compare to Unigine? And what do you think about just going all 2D by using photorealistic pre-rendered sprites instead of real time rendered 3D models?

 

[Jaesun]

Who gives a shit. The game is on Unity. End of story.

 

[A user named cat]

I came into this topic feeling pleasant and enthusiastic about having more updates. Even had to smile after watching Colin's video and Jaesun's expected/welcomed cheerleading. Then I started reading on and a frown began forming when Hiver started his usual bitching and babbling. Then a newfag showed up and started graphic whoring ignorantly. Then the usual asswipes show up to pointlessly argue with him and drag it on. Now I'm feeling upset and signing out of Codex to avoid reading anymore of this dumb shit. Thanks a lot.

 

[winterraptor]

Then the usual asswipes show up to pointlessly argue with him and drog it on.

Fixed.