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Total War-like Formation Tactics Game

gabe1010

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Jan 21, 2023
Messages
41
Hello, I've been working for awhile on a Total War-like real time formation tactics game, but that is a bit slower paced and involves more wargaming rules like anarchy charges, zone of control, priority shooting targets, pursuits/evades, delayed commands with couriers, line shifting w/ modes like pushback/fallback/guard, etc...I have an early build up on itch.io.

itch.io link:
https://gabe1010.itch.io/formation-tactics-game-prototype-battle

*scroll down to find the most recent build in the downloads section (build16 at time of wiring), as I keep the older builds up as well.

I thought I would post a build here to gauge interest and get some feedback. Let me know what you think and any feedback on design or bugs etc...I'm a programmer, not an artist, so the models are publicly available assets.



VViOS5.jpg
 
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Victor1234

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Dec 17, 2022
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255
Looks like there was an update on Tuesday that added something called courier movement. Is it like how Grand Tactician Civil War does it? Instead of usual TW where you do an order and the unit immediately executes, a rider gets spawned from the controlling HQ unit and has to ride over to the unit (and can be intercepted/killed) before the unit executes.
 

gabe1010

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Jan 21, 2023
Messages
41
Looks like there was an update on Tuesday that added something called courier movement. Is it like how Grand Tactician Civil War does it? Instead of usual TW where you do an order and the unit immediately executes, a rider gets spawned from the controlling HQ unit and has to ride over to the unit (and can be intercepted/killed) before the unit executes.

yes something like that, except:
1) the couriers just come from the nearest general's unit
2) there is a max shout radius within which units react quickly (but not immediately) without requiring a courier.

btw you can hold ctrl to show waypoints (green currently executing waypoint and red for pending commands currently being carried to the selected unit(s)
 

RobotSquirrel

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You've done well so far but I need to make some suggestions based on my old wish list for a total war game in case you're wanting to take this beyond a prototype. I think you've got something with a lot of potential here.

- You need to reintroduce guard mode so that you have 2 different charge modes, with guard mode enabled units should retain their formation (which appears to be your default behaviour), with it off the formation should spread out as they charge so that they try to envelop the opposing unit. Rome 2 was trash because the guard mode basically did nothing. //I see you've added this. Good! lol

- Cavalry ideally should not be attacking head on. At the minimum it should attack and the dip out of the engagement as this prevents Creative Assembly's stupid AI behaviour where it charges the general into certain death. Head on attacks should really only happen to either kill skirmisher/ranged units or counter charge against an opposing cavalry unit to lock it down (and it should weigh up its success chance versus the opposing unit, Light Cav shouldn't be counter charging Heavies).

- Units should have value priority, Generals should have high value. There should be a Reserve pool in the AI so that the AI keeps an escort for high value units. (this prevents exposed flanks on high value units). The AI should also have strategies in place to either chip away at the opposing army or prioritize taking out high value targets depending on the situation. Generals should only commit to a fight where it makes sense for them to do so, where it is heavily in the advantage of the general, also make it so that the General can't be killed if the Unit is above 75% strength, its so annoying in Total War to have your general be the first person to die in the unit, it feels super unlucky so I think past 75% is fair it gives the generals time to fight their way out of a bad situation plus it means the AI would put up a better fight overall, also means the chances of a general dying from a opposing charge or from their charge is minimal which I think is more appropriate. Otherwise Give the General a lot more HP because they shouldn't be dying so easily.

- Give the AI some uniqueness, associate traits to the AI so that certain tactical quirks vary up engagements. Make it so that having a good idea of who the opposing general is and their preferences would give you an advantage (this is something I've always felt was missing from Total War games, every battle plays the same, I'd rather it not be that way).

- Skirmishers and Light Cavalry should prioritise attacking to the rear of units, there should be anchor points on each units showing the front and back and provides a pathfinding node for the AI to initiate flanking better.

- Make sure that Unit pathing is weighted against certain unit types. Cavalry path finding should actively avoid Spearmen. Skirmishers, Archers should actively avoid Cavalry (this behaviour is in Total War anyway it'd just be nice to have an option to turn it on for Calvary so they don't do stupid things like path into spears as is very prone to happen in Total War especially in towns).

- Allow the Player to send orders to Allied AI Generals (So what Medieval 2 Kingdoms Did but allow for it to be more robust so that the AI and Player are on the same page.)

- Have a good variety of units and ensure that the enemy armies are unique to an extent. (consider adding things like honour guards where there are limited numbers of them at any one time, this gives certain generals a unique character and flare to their armies and prevents the player fighting the same army compositions over and over and over.)

- For the love of god don't use Victory Points!

- Try to avoid stalemates, the worst thing about Total War is when the AI goes completely passive. If it sees an unwinnable battle it should withdraw or surrender depending on how grim things look. If the AI can press the advantage it should, there should be this constant fear to the player that the AI will take advantage of situation and push the player into a worse position, I want to see sheep herding behaviours where the AI is pushing the player further and further into an enveloping formation and then going in for the kill.

Use em, Bin Em, do what you want. Good luck.
I based this off the footage, I can't seem to find an executable to run your game.
 
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hello friend

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I'm on an actual spaceship. No joke.
- Cavalry ideally should not be attacking head on. At the minimum it should attack and the dip out of the engagement as this prevents Creative Assembly's stupid AI behaviour where it charges the general into certain death. Head on attacks should really only happen to either kill skirmisher/ranged units or counter charge against an opposing cavalry unit to lock it down (and it should weigh up its success chance versus the opposing unit, Light Cav shouldn't be counter charging Heavies).
Strongly disagree with this, cavalry charges should only happen in ideal conditions and be absolutely devastating, and ideally combat should always be more about disrupting formations and breaking morale than slaughter. Once cavalry has smashed through the front lines they should dismount and fight in melee, allowing infantry to move up behind them and take advantage of the broken defenses. I die inside every time I see cycle charging.
 

RobotSquirrel

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Strongly disagree with this, cavalry charges should only happen in ideal conditions and be absolutely devastating,
I definitely agree to that in the case of heavy cav. The whole point of Medieval cav is that frontal lance charge bashing into infantry. But Generals and Light Cavalry shouldn't be doing it because in the case of Light Cav they don't have enough power to break the formation, and in the case of Generals its a suicide charge, high probability that the unit dies. But yeah definitely Heavy Cav should charge front on that's pretty much its intended purpose, I should've phrased that better.
die inside every time I see cycle charging.
In the context of total war its a strategy that works. If you want to make it more historically accurate then you'd punish pre-emptive disengagement which would be preferable, if a unit is engaged it should stay engaged, disengaging shouldn't be something so readily done. But again if we're going based on the rule set CA uses cycle charging is going to be a valid strategy. I'd recommend nerfing it though because yeah it shouldn't be so effective, it is basically exploiting the AI at that point.
 
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gabe1010

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Jan 21, 2023
Messages
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Thanks for the interest! I'll address a few points brought up, but first I'll go over a kind of general design philosophy. The general concept that I'm going for is a more 'top down' design strategy typical of tabletop or digital tabletop wargames like field of glory, hail Caesar, and DBA, but in real time and with the spectacle of thousands of troops. So, I take the perspective of always asking if a mechanic adds to the suite of tactical options available to the general/player and leads to an, on the whole, more interesting and accurate battle, rather than bottom up design where the whole experience emerges from lots of small, low level pieces being put together. To give a specific example, although it may be the case that ranged weapons would do more damage into the flank or rear of an enemy (debatable because the men who aren't in combat could largely turn to face their shields towards the direction of fire, but putting that aside), adding such a damage boost into the game motivates unrealistic and ahistorical use of skirmishers as a flanking force, rather than as a force sent out in front of the army to screen, scout, engage other skirmishers, disrupt the enemy line and so on before retiring to the flanks after the main battle has been joined. Just keep that in mind as that's basically the first question I ask when coming to a design decision, ie does it contribute to the holistic outcome of a battle, rather than does it, in isolation, seem correct. Also, units are routed by dropping cohesion levels from various effects (close combat, shooting, seeing other units routing, being flanked, etc...) and casualties have very little gameplay effect, but are more a consequence and a visual of combat outcomes which are resolved with a POA type system typical of table top games.

-there are line shift modes you can select with ui buttons, where by default units shift back and forth with victory and defeat, but they can elect to pushback more if they win (maybe should be at some cost), and if they are disciplined they can elect to hold position or even intentionally fallback, and if cavalry they can elect to always recoil from combat (which cavalry will also do on their own typically after a few rounds of combat with non light infantry, although I still need to rework the numbers on that, I have recently totally overhauled all of the combat resolution, cohesion and POA systems).

-there are impact and extended melee POA distinctions, and POA loss with terrain disorder etc...still a lot to work out in that regard, and I'm not sure what all terrain elements or more levels of disorder I will or should add, but the point is it's more complicated than just cavalry should or should not charge. Some should (Lancers in the open), some throw javelins before charging in and then likely recoiling, some are actually good in extended melee (Cataphracts), and some only skirmish. Right now I have light horse, cavalry, and heavy cavalry unit types that can have lancer, javelin, handweapon etc...capability and Cataphract subtype etc...but still working on types.

I will probably introduce a limited unit quality system, where some units can be upgraded to veteran with an upgrade token (maybe you'd have ~3 of these), or downgraded to raw in exchange for an upgrade token, where the difference is really just in their ability to absorb morale shocks/pass cohesion checks. However, there won't be that much of a concept of elite or mob type units exactly. Armor I've also got in with a simple 3 tier system of unarmored, protected and armored, largely effecting ranged defense and melee (not impact) POA.

AI is fairly basic for now, just a script that sort of sends them forward in different sections/times/distances, except that they follow the same rules as the player with anarchy charges, priority shooting, zone of control etc...ie most attack commands are not commanded and move orders come through couriers and units cannot just walk by enemies and so on. So they are right now at least ok at moving forward, picking targets, attacking/shooting, and picking new targets if idle after awhile, but that's sort of it for now.

Skirmishers do evade, and impetuous enemies receiving fire do uncontrollably charge if they can. Units also uncontrollably pursue after victory, which can lead them into getting in more charges against other units (ie one unit of flanking cav can actually wrap up a whole flank on its own, or a unit goaded into charging by shooting skirmishers will, if those skirmishers fall back through a non-light unit, then attack that non-light unit).

Unit variety is a low priority right now, as I'm more at a stage of hashing out the base gameplay mechanics, and for awhile will probably just have at most one of each type once I even get to that stage (types being something like foot skirmishers, light horse, heavy infantry of at least the handweapon, spear, pike, and two hander capabilities, medium foot, bowmen, lancers, horse archers, cavalry, and a few others, with some sub types like warband and cataphracts, or maybe those should be their own category, still working that out).

No victory points, but you'll win by routing some percentage of enemy units, perhaps offset by how many of your own units are also routed.

Sorry you can't find the executable. If you download the .rar and extract into its own folder, just run the unityselectiontest.exe.

Yes, combat is about disrupting enemies and getting them to rout off the field (typically with most of them still alive). They do take further casualties while routing if they have a pursuer, and if they are routing and detect they cannot escape as they are surrounded they are dispersed, or just if they are routing for long enough, then they also disperse, which visually right now just shows them all run off in different directions and then dying. They can also rout/pursue off the map, into an area in which they can be selected but to which they cannot be given move commands, if that makes sense, ie you can only send them back.

Ideally, you would disrupt an enemy first, perhaps with shooting, and then charge with the heavy cavalry to break them, but it's situational. I'll probably try to introduce a concept of non-open but not disordering terrain, like low walls or small streams or gulleys or fences, which are typically used to negate mounted charge POA but otherwise don't cause formation disruption. There's no 'cycle charging' exactly in this, as you cannot give orders to a unit that is engaged in combat. However, cavalry often disengage/recoil from non light infantry when they are not at advantage in melee, and can be put into a mode where they will always try to do so if they can.

I'll push a new update soon with the cohesion/POA additions, and a total overhaul to the combat coordination and appearance. It will likely introduce some new bugs, but on the whole be much better.
 

gabe1010

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Jan 21, 2023
Messages
41
new build19 is up with significant updates mentioned above to POA/Cohesion/Combat appearance and tooltips etc...

EDIT: added a newer build20 that fixes some of the balance/bug issues introduced in build19 given that it was such a large overhaul
 
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RobotSquirrel

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Sorry you can't find the executable. If you download the .rar and extract into its own folder, just run the unityselectiontest.exe.
Ah ok. I recommend not putting Unity at the start of your executable's name, there should be a distinction as to what binaries are yours and which ones are included by Unity. That's why I was confused, on looking at the file sizes makes sense.
 

gabe1010

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Jan 21, 2023
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Sorry you can't find the executable. If you download the .rar and extract into its own folder, just run the unityselectiontest.exe.
Ah ok. I recommend not putting Unity at the start of your executable's name, there should be a distinction as to what binaries are yours and which ones are included by Unity. That's why I was confused, on looking at the file sizes makes sense.
Latest build21 fundamentally rewrites a lot of the movement code, adds top down view banner info, adds concealment of units based on LoS (through hills and other units), and fixes a bunch of random issues (including changing the exe name :P).
 

gabe1010

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Jan 21, 2023
Messages
41
the latest build25 has unit selection, larger armies, horse archers (with model variation and weapon swapping prototype for them), and a large variety of gameplay fixes and improvements (see devlog). The unit selection should make it way more testable, so let me know what you think and if the game is actually fun at all or has the potential to be.
 

Lord of Riva

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Very good, my game idea/prototype has at least somewhat aligning direction, I will look forward and check for what you have done with this.
 
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- Cavalry ideally should not be attacking head on. At the minimum it should attack and the dip out of the engagement as this prevents Creative Assembly's stupid AI behaviour where it charges the general into certain death. Head on attacks should really only happen to either kill skirmisher/ranged units or counter charge against an opposing cavalry unit to lock it down (and it should weigh up its success chance versus the opposing unit, Light Cav shouldn't be counter charging Heavies).
Strongly disagree with this, cavalry charges should only happen in ideal conditions and be absolutely devastating, and ideally combat should always be more about disrupting formations and breaking morale than slaughter. Once cavalry has smashed through the front lines they should dismount and fight in melee, allowing infantry to move up behind them and take advantage of the broken defenses. I die inside every time I see cycle charging.
Bro are you telling me you'd deadass leave your oneeeeigh-chan sandwiched between the enemy forces frfr no cap? This action does NOT have my consent (that's the line from the thing!)

Not sure whether you fellaz are referencing a specific historical use of cavalry, but from the light reading I have done on the subject, I got the impression that 1. cav was indeed effective at disrupting enemy formations even against the best trained infantry but 2. that being said they weren't actually supposed to smash through anything - once the horseflesh meets the infantry line, fight and flight takes over and both beasts and men and try to get the hell of each other's way, which is of course much worse for the footmen than the nimble horses (presumably unless we are dealing with a highly specialized formation like braced pikemen or anti-cav stakes.) Of course in those conditions we can assume collissions and trampling took place but they were accidents rather than intentional (because imagine how easy it is for a horse to be permanently taken out of action after colliding with a polearm bearing foot soldier.)

In that situation cav have a massive advantage in being able to ride by and spear the disintegrating formation, and the tactical possibility of causing a route, maneuvering to the enemy's flank or rear etc. Therefore penetration of formations did of course happen but mostly due to the aforementioned psychological effect and the cav's agility. Cycle charging the same formation over and over again does seem stupid but I don't see the point of cavalry dismounting except in direst of circumstances, since cavalry's entire psychological effect and tactical flexibility is owed to their horses. Not to mention the awful logistics of YOLOing your horsefriend in the middle of enemy formations, and low likelihood of survival in that situation since it would take a while for friendly infantry to arrive (formations moved slowly and I don't imagine friendly cav and infantry would maneuver closely with each other.)

Total War obviously sucks at representing that because we can all agree that horses just fucking standing around and letting their riders poke people in the vicinity is height of retardation. I think MechanicalChipmunk's idea is good - heavy cav should have something like skirmishing AI, which forces them to pull back after a charge for x seconds. If left on their own they should be able to circle around the enemy formation and alternate between attacking them and pulling back, only getting stuck in when something goes horribly wrong ie they get flanked or counter-charged by enemy cav. Although for balance reasons I would think this sort of automatic behavior should not provide the cav's full charge bonus, gotta have a reason for the player to get involved and double click some dudes you feel me dude

That being said I'm going by like a handful pop history articles I read for my PnP bullshit so I'd love it be corrected if I am getting anything wrong.
 

gabe1010

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- Cavalry ideally should not be attacking head on. At the minimum it should attack and the dip out of the engagement as this prevents Creative Assembly's stupid AI behaviour where it charges the general into certain death. Head on attacks should really only happen to either kill skirmisher/ranged units or counter charge against an opposing cavalry unit to lock it down (and it should weigh up its success chance versus the opposing unit, Light Cav shouldn't be counter charging Heavies).
Strongly disagree with this, cavalry charges should only happen in ideal conditions and be absolutely devastating, and ideally combat should always be more about disrupting formations and breaking morale than slaughter. Once cavalry has smashed through the front lines they should dismount and fight in melee, allowing infantry to move up behind them and take advantage of the broken defenses. I die inside every time I see cycle charging.
Bro are you telling me you'd deadass leave your oneeeeigh-chan sandwiched between the enemy forces frfr no cap? This action does NOT have my consent (that's the line from the thing!)

...

That being said I'm going by like a handful pop history articles I read for my PnP bullshit so I'd love it be corrected if I am getting anything wrong.
it's difficult to say definitively how cavalry approached infantry formations (or other cavalry) with so much time having passed since warfare involving massed cavalry charges. Prior to medieval knights (with some substantial technological advances in armor, saddles, stirrups, lances, horse breeding, training and so on), it seems most cavalry skirmished with ranged weapons most of the time, and even those that preferred to charge home still kept throwing spears as their impact/charge weapon. The sources I've read tell a few potential stories of cav vs cav charges:

1) the two sides ride up to one another, throwing projectiles and riding away repeatedly, often evading and pursuing long distances, and never really entering a massed general melee
2) the two sides trot up to one another, throw missiles and then engage in a general melee basically walking up to one another and beginning to fight from horseback while not moving.
3) the two sides ride up and through one another at some speed with almost mutually agreed upon open order, striking or couching lances as they rode past, but only getting one shot in as they did so and then riding out past one another, basically switching sides (you probably couldn't do this with more than maybe 2 rows of cavalry)

vs infantry, they might charge confident that the infantry might break before contact if they are heavy lancers, in which case the cavalry could pursue and cut the infantry down, but if they did not break the cavalry would suffer and likely recoil. If you take hastings as an example, the norman knights repeatedly broke on the anglo saxon shieldwall until the over confident saxons charged down the hill in pursuit, breaking their formation, and were then counter charged and destroyed (it was more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea). Often, sending in ranged units to break up infantry was a necessary pre-requisite to riding down the infantry with cavalry (all-cavalry forces like the Parthians do this combining horse archers and cataphracts, only driving home with the lances after the infantry opponent has been exhausted and disordered by shooting).

It may have been that for some ancient lancer units, the purpose of using lances from horseback, especially the very long two handed lances typical of cataphracts and skythians, was just to outreach opponents but still fight them more or less from a slow or zero speed, ie you ride up and poke at them, not charge into them with a couched lance expecting to ride through. Skirmishing cavalry may have played a kind of corralling role vs enemy infantry, where the infantry, being unwilling to expose themselves by running out into cavalry in the open, are basically forced to move slowly or not at all by the presence of even a small number of enemy mounted skirmishers. It's hard to say how you would represent this psychological effect in a video game. Some concepts like Zone of Control and preventing certain units from initiating attacks all or some of the time with charge refusals can get the point across (ie something like non light infantry will refuse to charge non light cavalry in the open, and may be slowed down by shooting).

what they almost certainly never did was full on gallop charge into one another flying through the air in a giant crash of metal and horses like you see in movies, as that would be suicidal and the horses would probably refuse. Some late medieval knights did dismount for combat, but generally on deployment. Getting off your horse during a battle that you started mounted was probably only done involuntarily until the age of gunpowder and mounted infantry (dragoons).

Gameplay-wise, how this pans out is that you want to disrupt infantry before charging them with cavalry, or you want to wait for them to charge, thus disordering themselves, before counter charging them while they are moving (a lot of turn based/grid based tactics games have strong debuffs to infantry that attack cavalry, but not when they defend against cavalry, especially lancers). Especially because cavalry units generally must have far fewer men than infantry units, getting into an extended melee where you trade losses about 1 for 1 is to the detriment of the cavalry.

There are some old videos of sabre cavalry drills like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3BShfhygbk
but it's not clear how well that translates to ancient or medieval combat. some other discussions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdd-RKNr5f4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VX5tFEO_dM
good comments on those videos, with one guy describing that a skilled lancer could fight as well as a swordsmen in close combat at a standstill but with more reach.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
What a distinguished poster. I don't usually play strategy games but I am wishing you all the best and will be following the project if only to read more from you. Good luck!
 

gabe1010

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Jan 21, 2023
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I have a new build 37 up now with many more factions and units, including The Legion (sort of Roman like tactically), The Mercenaries (Carthage-like), the Empire (Hellenistic), the Woodsmen (Welsh-ish), the Pirates (Illyrian-like medium foot army) , in addition to the existing Kingdom (Norman), Barbarians and Nomad, and new units including pikemen and more variations on armored cavalry and spears plus impact foot and barbarian bowmen. See pics on linked itch page.
 

gabe1010

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I have a new build 45 up that fixes a huge number of bugs, improves performance, and adds a lot of factions. The factions are pseudo-historical, like mount and blade factions kind of, but they are:
Barbarians (Germanic/Celtic warband)
Caliphate (Berber/Andalusian)
The Empire (Hellenistic pikes/lancers)
Highlanders (scots pikes)
Janissaries (Ottoman armored bowmen etc...)
The Kingdom (Normans)
Mercenaries (Carthage)
Nomads (Mongols)
The Order (Teutonic Knights)
The Pirates (Illyrian medium foot army)
The Legion (Romans)
The Woodsmen (Welsh bowmen army)
 

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