Fallout Underwhelmed by Fallout :(

[laclongquan]

The problem with Fallout 1's devoted fan around here is that it's a cult thing to them. They will never ever accept to lower their devotion to it. No matter the analysis, no matter the deep thinks. It's a semi-religious thing to them.

And precise of it that they will never ever accept that Fallout 2 is better than F1, that Fallout 2 build on the foundation that F1 set, build it better, build it well, polish the faults of F1.

That's why the blandness, the scarcity of quests, of things to do in F1, to them, is the tight focus of story. Bitch please~ And they dont question the nearly sameness of F1 towns. Well, I can give you that the F1 time is nearer to the War and more pressed by the savage world, so they have the same culture of necessity than F2.

That's why they explain the variety of towns, of environment in F2 as theme park, as comical, even though their own nation's history should show them that it's the actual realism, that the difficult of traffic make each town develop its own culture quite different than the town some weeks away. F2's time is more peaceful, more rebuild-the-world after Vault Dweller's actions buy them 70 years of peace, so they have the breathing space to build things differently.

Why LA's chinatown? Because most of the survivors there is Chinamen, and you know that chinamen build chinatowns everywhere they live outside of China, with Kung Fu clubs/dojo in them. Why Scientologistic town? Because the cult survived. Why gangster town? Because the gangster culture is steeped in Yankees. IT's a thing call cultural heritage. If they are no longer pressed by survival as in F1, they will build the cultural heavens that their mothers told them in cradle.

But F1 fans will close their eyes and ears about all that. They refuse to see the greatness of F2, because to acknowledge it is to acknowledge its greater status than 1.

I frankly give up on convincing fanatics a long time ago. Ranting like this is just a way to check if my old assumtion is still true or not.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Why LA's chinatown? Because most of the survivors there is Chinamen, and you know that chinamen build chinatowns everywhere they live outside of China, with Kung Fu clubs/dojo in them. Why Scientologistic town? Because the cult survived. Why gangster town? Because the gangster culture is steeped in Yankees. IT's a thing call cultural heritage. If they are no longer pressed by survival as in F1, they will build the cultural heavens that their mothers told them in cradle.

Why does Fallout 2 exist? Because video games exist.

I see, the logic is infallible.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

So I really enjoyed taking down Gizmo with Killian. But now no one acknowledges that I did. The boxer who works for Gizmo, the waitress at the bar, the bartender, even Tycho... Not a single NPC in the map realizes that Gizmo is now dead. For the best RPG of all time this is just really really sad.

Yeah, that is true. Fallout 2 did better in comparison when you kill Metzger for example.

 

[Cazzeris]

I started Fallout 2 blind and made a charismatic, dialogue-centered and expert on energy weapons character. I expected that devs at Black Isle would've rebalanced the systems a bit to offer a more satisfying role-playing experience. Oh boy I was wrong.

They made a good job with the companion tactical options that control how much will your party shoot on your back, but that was an useless effort since they kept killing themselves between them. That, and the fact that my charsimatic character relied on Vic, Lenny, Cassidy & Sulik 100% during combat made me left the game at Wannamingo Mine. The game's world also felt way too dumb, content-bloated and buggy (the pathfinding was so broken that the companions were walking through the walls all the time, making combat very frustrating at cave areas). If I ever dare to start another walkthrough, my character will be a strong & combat-centered one since the dialogues' skill-checks rewards weren't very enjoyable neither and I couldn't find any laser weapons. Which is a shame, because I found some interesting C&C in the game, the soundtrack and the graphics were better and more varied than F1's (aside from the lack of enough talking heads), the UI felt slightly more polished and the companions' stories were fairly interesting.

Fallout 1 was kinda awesome, though.

 

[laclongquan]

Why does Fallout 2 exist? Because video games exist.

I see, the logic is infallible.

Since you complained, I will elaborate

Why Chinatown? Because with the importance of China in Fallout setting, there will be survivors that are from chinamen gene. In the whole USofA there must be at least one community of chinamen survive. Therefore they will make their chinatown. It's inevitable and not forced at all.

Why Scientologistic town? Because that cult of Scientology survive. With the numerous cults and sects in USA, it would be strange if no cult survive, agreed? The setting say scientology survive so they have that base. If the setting say a sect of Asatru survive it would call for a viking town and longhouses. Frankly given the type/number of sects and cults in USA, it's not hard to find a template with strange appearance and belief. Scientology is remarkly normal in spite of their belief.

Why gangster town ala New Reno? because culture, man. Thing is, game is built during the 90s, when the gangster culture of USA is not invaded by the hispanic influence of Cuban and Central America, or the raw savage of Latin America (Columbians...). From that context, the gangster culture at the time is more Italian, godfather, than Miami Vice. More Wild Western cowboys feel than guerilla army of Broken Hills. Yeah, you can say BH's culture is more like a collection of Latinos gangs forced together due to necessity. Whatever the elite of USA protest, your own culture is steeped in gangster culture. I dont say it as a sneer you see, because the way culture works is like that. We can say Chinamen culture is deep in wuxia culture, eastern martial atmostphere or some thing like that, or Japanese is deep in samurai stuffs.
+ I actually view New Reno is a corruption of a frontier cowboy town. It started out as one (with 4-5 cow routes through it), but then the demands of Vault City and Enclave for raw chemical ingredients introduce the drug channels into that cowboy town.

 

[Athelas]

Fallout 1 was fine in terms of content density. Perfectly paced, coherent, and every area seemed to matter. What it lacked was the shovel-load of mindless, utterly banal filler content (which, nevertheless, the player is compelled to complete for that sweet XP) that is used to needlessly pad out the length of almost every RPG.

Fallout 1 begins with you facing dozens of rats, the ultimate of RPG cliches and filler content.

 

[Sykar]

I started Fallout 2 blind and made a charismatic, dialogue-centered and expert on energy weapons character. I expected that devs at Black Isle would've rebalanced the systems a bit to offer a more satisfying role-playing experience. Oh boy I was wrong.

They made a good job with the companion tactical options that control how much will your party shoot on your back, but that was an useless effort since they kept killing themselves between them. That, and the fact that my charsimatic character relied on Vic, Lenny, Cassidy & Sulik 100% during combat made me left the game at Wannamingo Mine. The game's world also felt way too dumb, content-bloated and buggy (the pathfinding was so broken that the companions were walking through the walls all the time, making combat very frustrating at cave areas). If I ever dare to start another walkthrough, my character will be a strong & combat-centered one since the dialogues' skill-checks rewards weren't very enjoyable neither and I couldn't find any laser weapons. Which is a shame, because I found some interesting C&C in the game, the soundtrack and the graphics were better and more varied than F1's (aside from the lack of enough talking heads), the UI felt slightly more polished and the companions' stories were fairly interesting.

Fallout 1 was kinda awesome, though.

I ran with a party of Sulik, Vic, Cassidy and Myron, never had a major problem with them shooting each other. Did it happen occasionally? Sure. Was very rare though, so that was a non issue. Enemies shot themselves far more often, especially bigger groups.

 

[Cazzeris]

I ran with a party of Sulik, Vic, Cassidy and Myron, never had a major problem with them shooting each other. Did it happen occasionally? Sure. Was very rare though, so that was a non issue. Enemies shot themselves far more often, especially bigger groups.

It happened constantly in every single combat at small places. Maybe I should've insalled more patches, but wasn't very informed at that time.

Wannamingos shoothing themselves would've been a bendition to my group.

 

[Sykar]

Fallout 1 begins with you facing dozens of rats, the ultimate of RPG cliches and filler content.

Nah, was a stroke of genius according to the Fallout 1 fantards.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If the setting say a sect of Asatru survive it would call for a viking town and longhouses.

Yeah, see, this is what I'm talking about. You motivate their existence by the fact that they exist.

Hey, if they say a sect of goths survived then it would call for shitty music and faggy clothes.
That's not how it works. You can't just put anything in and say that if I put it in that's enough reason for it to exist.

 

[Sykar]

It happened constantly in every single combat at small places. Maybe I should've insalled more patches, but wasn't very informed at that time.

Wannamingos shoothing themselves would've been a bendition to my group.

What did you do? Give them all miniguns?

 

[roshan]

It happened constantly in every single combat at small places. Maybe I should've insalled more patches, but wasn't very informed at that time.

Wannamingos shoothing themselves would've been a bendition to my group.

The NPCs get better with levels though. They get 5 level ups each, with a random chance to level whenever you gain a level. Once they level though it takes 3 more of your levels before they have the chance to level up again.

At high levels Vic and Cassidy are incredible sharpshooters. Lenny and Sulik also get really good.

 

[J_C]

Why can't anyone understand that if you don't know how to configure your graphics card you shouldn't be using a computer?

You can't configure a graphics card to make the upscale look good. It is impossible, because LCD monitors don't work that way. And if you are thinking just preserving the aspect ration...i know that duhhh, it is not about the aspect ratio, but the upscale of low resolution graphics to fullscreen, in 1080p.

 

[Darkzone]

So I really enjoyed taking down Gizmo with Killian. But now no one acknowledges that I did. The boxer who works for Gizmo, the waitress at the bar, the bartender, even Tycho... Not a single NPC in the map realizes that Gizmo is now dead. For the best RPG of all time this is just really really sad.

Yes this is one technical aspect of FO:1 that they did not made as good as in the successor, like the leveling and equipping of your party members, but we all know this.

 

[Nevill]

Fallout 1 is a curious little game.

What set it aside for me was that it supported various playstyles and had quite a bit of content that was unique to a single playthrough. There are dialogue options that are only accessible once when you first speak to a character - and you will either have to reload multiple times, or play several games to see everything that the game has to offer.

It was very interesting to discover that being taken prisoner in Necropolis and escorted to Lou wasn't the end of the game the walkthroughs made it sound to be, but a legitimate path you can explore. I was captured as a level 5 melee character with 53 HPs, and I found at least 3 (marginally) different ways to leave that place without relying on (hopeless) combat or reloads, some of them quite tricky as they relied on guards changing shifts. You don't find that level of reactivity even in most of today's games.

Interestingly enough, the base is a lot easier to clean from the inside in a vault suit with a pea-shooter than to storm from the outside in power armor with a minigun. That's a good design. When I play the game in a self-imposed Ironman mode, I always turn myself in just to get inside. Ironman may be a solution to OP's problems with the game difficulty - try to play around the possibility of insta-death criticals and the combat is no longer that trivial.

I have also killed the Master with a level 8 character before I even got the Water Chip, and I was pleasantly surprised about the number of options you have to infiltrate and navigate the Cathedral that didn't rely on VD being a buff killing machine.

That said, the game is pretty sparce as far as content goes, and is riddled with bugs even to this day. Fallout 2 improved on most of the aspects of its predecessor and added a lot of polish, on top of being written in the more 'advanced' engine. It all contributed to the fact that the second game enjoys a much larger popularity and a much bigger modding community.

Still, the first game has a certain charm to it.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Sometimes more is less. To understand this is very important.

This has to be the #1 "how to sound deep without actually explaining anything" stock phrase.

Spoiler

second place goes to "Everything happens for a reason"

 

[JarlFrank]

Fallout is a solid game and I found it to be underwhelming when I first played it, too. That was probably back in '07 or '08, I hadn't played it before joining the Codex. Having played Arcanum before, I noticed the obvious similarities because they were both made by the same guys, and I found Fallout - especially after all the praise I read about it on the Codex - to be a solid game, but nothing that approaches the greatness of Arcanum. I can see why it is so beloved, though, especially considering the time it came out. Had I played it back in the late 90s, I might have become a fanboy too, yeah. And it is a good, enjoyable and well-designed game, so it deserves its good reputation.

I had just been spoiled by Arcanum when I first played it, so it was underwhelming in comparison. I first played Fallout 2, and then Fallout 1 (because the time limit of 1 scared me off at first), but in this way Fallout 1 was actually a positive surprise because it was a much tighter game than Fallout 2. Better story and writing, better atmosphere, less silliness. Still, to me it's not the best RPG ever, but it might rank among my top 10.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Interestingly enough, the base is a lot easier to clean from the inside in a vault suit and a pea-shooter than to storm it from the outside in power armor with a minigun.

Sure about that? Power armor makes you pretty much invincible in the Fallouts, and I remember that storming that base through the main entrance was easy as pie.
It's still great that there are different equally valid approaches of course.

 

[Darkzone]

This has to be the #1 "how to sound deep without actually explaining anything" stock phrase.

Spoiler

second place goes to "Everything happens for a reason"

Not if you actually understand this two phrases. There is beauty in the minimalist approach. Like Darvis posted the pic about perfection that is achived by the fact that you cannot reduce it more.
In programming the code becomes clear, ordered and bugs (not all) are in an instant visible. In the arts the vision of the artist becomes clear. Bla.. Bla... Bla..
In FO:1 the 'lack' of quests is contributing to the setting and the atmosphere of a broken down world and of a wasteland. If everyone has to offer a quest, it becomes plain stupid. In FO:1 sometimes you got to search, for quests and other solutions, and they are not thrown always at you, like on a stupid. FO:2 lacks this atmosphere, and misses the opportunity to build up on the primitive origin of the protagonist: you simply transit to fast into a more modern society.
The story of FO:1 is clear from the beginning and an end will be if the clock runs out for the vault 13. This clock is constantly a reminding and motivating point for the VD (storywise). This is simple and clean.
In FO:2 the plot and its 'twists' is lacking a logical coherence and it has no felt pressure on the protagonist. The story is littered and has many plotholes.

 

[Nevill]

Sure about that? Power armor makes you pretty much invincible in the Fallouts, and I remember that storming that base through the main entrance was easy as pie.

Criticals ignore armor. You can get one-hit-killed by a rocket launcher.

On the other hand, if you are heading out of the base, you have an option to not get hit at all as the guards are all facing the entrance. You can shoot them one-by-one, or just sneak by them. You can't do that when you enter from the front door, because they see you right as you walk in (sneak does not persist between locations), but you can sneak from behind them and reach the entrance unnoticed if you are moving in the other direction.

It also helps that they do not disarm you before they take you to Lou. Meaning that you can get inside in your power armor and reap the benefits of both approaches. I have also found out that you can outrun the Lieutenant (even without exploiting the 'A' key) if your Sequence and AGI is high enough to let you reach certain 'blind spots' where he can't fire his nasty Minigun at you (it always carries a risk of instant death). That allowed me to get inside the base with my equipment intact and take it out even at lower levels.

Of course, it relies on exploiting the quirks of game engine and stealth system to an extent.

 

[Gentle Player]

Fallout 1 begins with you facing dozens of rats, the ultimate of RPG cliches and filler content.

Yes, I really didn't like that. I didn't say that it had absolutely no filler, just that it had far less than many other RPGs.

 

[Grim Monk]

What I never got are all these complaints about New Reno being horribly unrealistic...

Its a “Vice Provider”, it peddles “drugs”, “sex”, “alcohol” to other waste communities.
Plenty examples of such in the real world (ever heard of Narco Economies)...



“But, but, No Farms...”
Firstly we are not shown the whole of New Reno, but only certain districts.

"Junktown" in Fallout 1 also had no “farms” shown on the game maps...
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Junktown

We don't have a clear picture of what the city outskirts are like.
Secondly they may well import goods they need since they provide goods and services other communities want.

Fallout 2 is set in a sort of growing/recovering “new frontier society”.
Its not an “extreme scarcity economy”, there is space for economic specialization.
NCR is stated to have a population around 700,000 people, you really think there is no economic basis for “Providing Vice”.
That's not even counting the other communities shown in game...


Even in the Fallout 1 time period you had bars, prostitutes, and gambling.


“OMG PORN STUDIOS”
Porn is a long standing part of the “Vice Economy”, and has been produced for ages.
Even before photos, you had people peddling “erotic drawings”.
I don't see why demand would suddenly cease among the descendents of nuclear war survivors...

"Tommy Guns"
IIRC, you had only like 6 dudes with Tommy Guns in the whole of New Reno.
The four bouncers at the "Shark Club", and two bouncers at the "Desperado".
Everybody else was armed with regular guns you find out in the Wastes...
I'd buy that a Casino might arm its Doorman/Bouncers with exotic weapon, its "flashy" and "draws attention".
Good to stand out in front of potential customers.
(Also, how and why did Gizmo own a Mauser in Fallout 1?)

What's so horribly unrealistic about all the above?

 

[agris]

When you play with that large of a resolution you're really not experiencing it in it's intended viewport. Fallout 1 specifically hid a lot of tiling behind the fact you could only see so much at once.

Also if 720p isn't the native res of your monitor, you'll be getting ugly scaling on top of it.

agris has the right idea.

Thanks, and roshan I play using a 24" too. What I didn't mention about those numbers, that tuluse alluded to, is that if your monitor is native 1920x1200/1080, those resolutions are a perfect 4:1 pixel map (screen:source), meaning no ugly scaling and pixel interpolation. You could try playing with the monitor a little further away if it looks too large, I play with my 24" 2.5 to 3.5 ft away from my face, fwiw.

 

[laclongquan]

Also. It worth pointing out that people NEVER pay attention to the various trade routes go through New Reno. It has the most number of trade caravan coming and going in the whole game.

Even before talking about local economy, New Reno has a number of fixed inbound visitors (cowboys) with money to pay. And they have trade caravans bringing in imports: foodstuffs like beef jerky from Modoc and northeastern villages, chemicals and medicines from Vault City, fresh meats from NCR...

The farmstead encounters around New Reno show that mobsters visit farmstead (not attack I think). So they have local farmers.

 

[gruntar]

Where?

A vault is a technological marvel, a place where people enjoy safety, pre-war level of comfort and technology. Arguably, it's more important and appealing than places like Shady Sands, Junktown, etc, where people are trying to survive and not doing that well. There is no actual rebuilding going on. The only tech-savvy place is the BoS bunker that's basically another vault where people hoard and preserve technology.

In other words, you come from a highly advanced place and visit crumbling towns and relatively primitive places. In Fallout 2 you come from a primitive place and visit highly advanced, "what the fuck is this shit?" places like the Vault City, NCR, SF, the Enclave, etc.

Doing your best to preserve one of the last remains of civilization makes a lot of sense and is hard to question. Doing your best to save your shitty village when the world IS rebuilding and GECK is no longer a Thing Of Great Importance doesn't make as much sense.

Overall, Fallout 2 setting makes as much sense as Fallout 3 setting, maybe even less.

On one hand yes, Vault 13 was more valuable that Arroyo, on the other it also was less dependent on protagonists actions. Nothing really stopped vault dwellers from coming outside and establishing contact with growing post-apoc civilization, they had, as you pointed out, tech, medical knowledge and more to offer for water and place to live. Instead of that 1000 or so dumbasses decided to suffer a horrible death of dehydration.

Arroyo was just a small tribe surrounded by other, probably hostile tribes, they had nowhere to go and nothing to offer, finding GECK was indeed their only chance. From that point of view Chosen One's quest made more sense than Vault Dweller's one.

First, a "more of the same" sequel hardly counts. Second, it doesn't do anything better. It simply piles up more shit (moar guns! kung-fu! a kung-fu city! gangsters in suits and fedoras! aliens! scientologists! ghosts! giant robots! Yakuza with katanas! talking deathclaws!), while breaking everything that could be broken (the setting, the character system, balance, etc) and calls it a bigger game.

I don't deny that there is a lot of "lulzy" stuff in Fallout 2, and quality of some of it is rather questionable, hell even developers admit that. Detractors always love to bring that up, what they tend to forget is that Fallout 2 world was much darker place, with slavery, prostitution and drug trafficking on almost industrial level. This stuff was barely mentioned in the first game.