Development Info Van Buren tech demo

[Jim Kata]

Music is lame. Floating numbers are lame. Did I miss it or did they take out prose descriptions?

 

[Lumpy]

Music is lame. Floating numbers are lame. Did I miss it or did they take out prose descriptions?

No. Right click -> look.
Doesn't work on some things though, but does on most.

 

[Jim Kata]

Music is lame. Floating numbers are lame. Did I miss it or did they take out prose descriptions?

No. Right click -> look.
Doesn't work on some things though, but does on most.

Prose descriptions of combat, I meant.

 

[Lumpy]

Oh. No room on the interface for them, so I guess not.

 

[Surgey]

I like the changed skill system.

Between this and your superiority complex you really deserve a dumbfucking, sweetheart.

Yeah, it was totally cooler to have a ton of skills that nobody ever put skill points into instead.

 

[elander_]

I ddin't enjoy the demo that much. Maybe because it was the lack of turn base on a game that was made for TB or because the 3D lame graphics have much less spirit than the original Fallout 2D graphics and the lack of talking heads. Let it stay dead.

I rather waste my time following the progress of FIFE:
http://wiki.fifengine.de/index.php?title=Screenshots

 

[Lumpy]

I like the changed skill system.

Between this and your superiority complex you really deserve a dumbfucking, sweetheart.

Because splitting Speech into Persuasion and Deception was clearly dumbing down.
And First Aid and Doctor being separate really made Fallout Fallout.
While Energy Weapons was the most logical skill to have, and was in no way actually a combination of Small Arms and Science which got away with having a unique score.
But anyway, I'm superior, so why bother?

 

[xedoc gpr]

I like the changed skill system.

Between this and your superiority complex you really deserve a dumbfucking, sweetheart.

Because splitting Speech into Persuasion and Deception was clearly dumbing down.
And First Aid and Doctor being separate really made Fallout Fallout.
While Energy Weapons was the most logical skill to have, and was in no way actually a combination of Small Arms and Science which got away with having a unique score.
But anyway, I'm superior, so why bother?

You can't be superior then him, he used the word sweetheart. :shock: :shock:

 

[Shoelip]

Music is lame. Floating numbers are lame. Did I miss it or did they take out prose descriptions?

No. Right click -> look.
Doesn't work on some things though, but does on most.

Prose descriptions of combat, I meant.

It's quite possible and even probable that they hadn't been implemented yet. That little window on the bottom left is still there after all. There's just nothing in it.

I ddin't enjoy the demo that much. Maybe because it was the lack of turn base on a game that was made for TB or because the 3D lame graphics have much less spirit than the original Fallout 2D graphics and the lack of talking heads. Let it stay dead.

I rather waste my time following the progress of FIFE:
http://wiki.fifengine.de/index.php?title=Screenshots

I don't think talking heads would have been a priority at that stage of development... Also, maybe I just can't tell with my crappy backup video card but the graphics seem to mimic the style of the original quite well but with much better detail.

 

[Jim Kata]

The talking heads are Fucking Retarded anyhow.

I don't see how so many people think stupid bullshit like that is cool because it's fallout, but would see it for how lame it is in, say, a bethesda game.

 

[Shoelip]

All the characters in Oblivion have talking heads...

Hey, somneone hurry up and hack this demo! Then do stuff with it! Cool stuff!

 

[Davaris]

I didn't like it at first but after a couple of plays, it started to grow on me. Its not that great, but its only a tech demo and I can see its potential as a turn based RPG engine. I think a game with an engine like this would sell very well today as a downloadable game.

 

[Punck_D]

I really like the tech demo, because of its potential for the final game. Character generation was fine, though skills were simplified. But seriously, I can not foresee how it would have been in the final game and many skills in Fallout 1+2 were shitty useless.

 

[elander_]

I don't see how so many people think stupid bullshit like that is cool because it's fallout, but would see it for how lame it is in, say, a bethesda game.

No it's cool because it's cool. Period. Don't compare the retarded heads of Oblivion npcs with those made for Fallout.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Yeah, it was totally cooler to have a ton of skills that nobody ever put skill points into instead.

Never put points into gambling? Try it one day. It's the free money skill. Watch what lots of free money does to your ability to buy all the cool stuff very early on in the game. This argument that there are "a ton of skills nobody ever put points into" I think is complete bullshit. Most of the combat skills can be used to complete the game. Melee and Unarmed may not have been chosen much but they're still both useful skills with the right tools. Unarmed, with the Slayer perk and Mega Power Fists, is a boatload of fun. Throwing really needed a few decent thrown weapons though. A good set of knives would've done the job.

First Aid and Doctor never made any sense because who can imagine a Doctor who can't do basic First Aid? The distinction between the two is fuzzy at best. Both involve healing, though you needed Doctor to heal some of the critical damage you took. Outdoorsman on the other hand, was always useful as it let you travel faster (in a game where time is important) and avoid the encounters you didn't want (in Fallout 2 at least).

Sneak, Lockpick and Steal were all useful. Sneak not so much but then again there were a few places where if you beefed it up, you could really take advantage of it. Provided you wanted to play Fallout "Thief style". Traps was completely useless. Setting dynamite with it, when you usually just wanted dynamite to explode "whenever" anyway, didn't really make it useful. The complete lack of traps in the game also didn't help. More to the point, putting in lots of traps always seems mentally deficient in some way. Then again just one or two really good trapped areas would've made the world of difference.

Science, Repair and Speech were the skills that made Fallout. They weren't as useful as a Plasma Rifle but they let you get into those places and access those things that really made the game great. That only leaves Barter and Gambling. Barter was not so useful given the amount of crap you'd easily find but as I said, Gambling is the free money skill. Get Gambling, head to Junktown and hit the slots. You'll be wiping out Shady Sands in Combat Armour and a Combat Shotgun bought from the Hub in no time.

So out of 18 skills Throwing just needs some decent weapons, Traps needs some good trapped areas (or really, just one military base with a very well trapped door) and Barter means money has to be worthwhile. Unfortunately in most computer games, you generally end up with too much money soon enough anyway.

As for First Aid and Doctor, given the abundance of Stimpaks, who really needed them? Of course, keep in mind if you've got Gambling, then you're buying those Stimpaks, otherwise you're taking them off the corpses of your dead enemies (usually where I got my supply). Again though, if you're playing a less violent character, you need to heal yourself somehow... Mind you, you always seemed to be able to rest fairly easily which often did the job - provided you weren't under too much time pressure. Then again, they do let you get those implants in Vault City which is a bit of fun.

So what, that's maybe four "useless" skills (either First Aid or Doctor is useless, I don't think you'd get rid of both) which could all be enhanced reasonably easily with just a few additions. However, the skills "usefulness" also depends on your play style. Sure, if you're killing everything in your path, all you really need is Energy Weapons (or Small Guns or Melee or Unarmed or Big Guns) and enough ammunition to get the job done. Any other skill is a waste. But that's your choice. A First Aid (heal self) / Outdoorsman (avoid encounters) / Sneak character can still get a fair bit done if you want to try something that avoids most of the combat.

Because splitting Speech into Persuasion and Deception was clearly dumbing down.

I never understood why JE wanted to combine First Aid and Doctor and yet split Speech into Persuasion and Deception. It seems hypocritical. I can understand the intent on making more deceive / persuade options available but all that means is that I have persuade when I need deceive and so I miss out anyway or vice versa.

While Energy Weapons was the most logical skill to have, and was in no way actually a combination of Small Arms and Science which got away with having a unique score.

Are you saying Science is the one that "got away" with being a unique skill? You'd prefer it was merged into something else? What skill would you use to hack into the Vault Military computer to set the silent self destruct or talk to Vree about her results? The idea of removing the "useless" skills is all fine and dandy but keep in mind you're judging their usefulness as compared to the combat skills, in a game where a combat opportunity is always just around the corner. Compared to that, the other skills will never seem "as useful".

 

[Lumpy]

No, I meant Energy weapons expertise should be a combination of the appropriate weapon skill (Melee, Small Guns, Big Guns), and the Science skill. It would make the Science skill more useful, make more sense, and make a pure science character more viable: Small Guns, Science and Mechanics tagged. Because without Small Guns or Speech tagged, such a character would have sucked in either Fallout until he got his first Energy Weapon. If he actually got that far.
Splitting Persuasion and Deception was a good idea, in my opinion, if diplomacy is a fully implemented gameplay style rather than a misc skill. If everything could be done through talking, letting the player tag two other skills would have been an unfair advantage over other archetypes.
Merging Doctor and First Aid was a good idea in my opinion, because both were misc skills, nearly useless, and didn't make sense separate. Doctor abilities should simply be equivalent to a high Medic skill, while First Aid should be available at a lower skill. Not to mention that a Doctor was never a viable character class, so having him waste a skill which could otherwise compensate his weakness was a bad idea.
Removing gambling didn't make much sense, really. Maybe they just wanted to make it a combination of INT and Luck, because it wouldn't have been used often enough.
And merging Small Arms and Big Guns - I'm not to keen on that, but I suppose it depends on how the game was designed.

I suppose the main idea was making all archetypes equally powerful and fun.
CombatBoy has all combat skills tagged or two skills and a misc one (Outdoorsman, Medic, Mechanics, etc.)
StealthBoy has Sneak, Steal and Security tagged, and can put some points into Mechanics to build traps.
ScienceBoy has Science, Mechanics, and maybe Small Guns to help him in a tough situation, or otherwise Medic or Outdoorsman to help the party.
And DiplomacyBoy has Deception, Persuasion and Barter or Outdoorsman tagged, plus a bigger party, so he can go though the game without getting his hands dirty.

As I said, there are things I don't approve of, but overall I think the system was improved.

 

[Jim Kata]

I don't see how so many people think stupid bullshit like that is cool because it's fallout, but would see it for how lame it is in, say, a bethesda game.

No it's cool because it's cool. Period. Don't compare the retarded heads of Oblivion npcs with those made for Fallout.

Full voice acted conversations are never cool.

 

[Jim Kata]

If anything the energy weapons skill was the stupid one.

How can you miss with a laser? That's like missing with a flashlight.

It might be different that using a slugthrower, but it's going to be easier in every way.

The combat skills also had too much effect, and aimed shots are too quick. So it takes 3-6 AP to make a general shot, but only one more to make an instakill eyeshot?

With no skill it's also virtually impossible to hit someone at close range. You should be able to use a weapon usefully with zero skillpoints! Silent Storm is much better in this respect - skill matters greatly, but your troops have some competence right from the getgo and never ever get into the realm of being ludicrous and superhuman. Fallout is the opposite, unfortunately. Since when is shooting a learned skill, anyhow? No matter how much you shoot in fallout you don't improve, and that's ridiculous.

As for first aid and doctor, it does make sense. First aid is dressing wounds and stopping bleeding. Doctor is for fixing complex problems. It is a little too granular, though, IMO. First aid also healed too many HPs and could be used too often. So, if I did anything I would just drop first aid and keep doctor the same way.

As for throwing skill, again it makes sense. You can't expect throwing and melee to be as useful in combat. At least not in every combat. Melee and throwing are not going to be the standard form of combat, but both have their uses. Some uber throwing knives is a pretty stupid idea, though. You already have grenades, anyhow, which in spite of what dumbfucks like kc say are quite useful.

 

[Lumpy]

So you're suggesting a use-based skill system like TES for Guns? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
And yes, missing with a laser doesn't really make sense.

 

[Jim Kata]

So you're suggesting a use-based skill system like TES for Guns? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
And yes, missing with a laser doesn't really make sense.

More like in silent storm.

For things like science that makes no sense, but for guns it obviously does.

 

[stargelman]

How can you miss with a laser? That's like missing with a flashlight.

Sorry, but that ain't true. Yeah, with a continuous beam laser thing (sort of like a laser cutter) that would be true, but a laser rifle would most likely be a pulsed laser weapon, which means you get a short burst, sort of like a shot with any other rifle. Why? Two reasons. A continuous beam strong enough to both have the range and the power to destroy a remote target would suck up a lot more power than a simple pulse, and secondly the weapon would get real hot real quick and would require more cooling than you could possibly carry with you.

Not to mention of course your comparisson of a laser with a flashlight is just... well... silly. The main point of a laser is that the beam is very focused and maintains cohesion even over longer distances, while a flashlight casts a massively widening beam.

 

[Jim Kata]

How can you miss with a laser? That's like missing with a flashlight.

Sorry, but that ain't true. Yeah, with a continuous beam laser thing (sort of like a laser cutter) that would be true, but a laser rifle would most likely be a pulsed laser weapon, which means you get a short burst, sort of like a shot with any other rifle. Why? Two reasons. A continuous beam strong enough to both have the range and the power to destroy a remote target would suck up a lot more power than a simple pulse, and secondly the weapon would get real hot real quick and would require more cooling than you could possibly carry with you.

Not to mention of course your comparisson of a laser with a flashlight is just... well... silly. The main point of a laser is that the beam is very focused and maintains cohesion even over longer distances, while a flashlight casts a massively widening beam.

All you need to do is have a low level pulse on at all times that always has a beam on it. Then when the red dot is on the target press the button.

Even without that there is no need to calculate wind, no need to calculate the effects of gravity. you can truly just look in the sites and fire and hit every time.

 

[elander_]

"Full voice acted conversations are never cool."

You LIE

 

[Jim Kata]

"Full voice acted conversations are never cool."

You LIE

You're right. They are cool, for illiterate people or people who read at a rate of one word per second.

 

[Lumpy]

They are cool, but only in Fallout. Only in the first one in fact.
Everywhere else they suck. Especially in Oblivion.