Review Vault Dweller reviews Dragon Age

[sheek]

No they don't.

 

[Serus]

Both systems are unbalanced. However, one is very simple, another is complex. Arcanum is less balanced but it has more features to compensate for it. Fallout is more balanced but it offers the bare minimum. That's what I meant.

I'm saying that SPECIAL is so simple that it can hardly be called a system. It works, obviously, but it doesn't offer you much. Arcanum offers a LOT more.

Arcanum was meant to be more complex and more ambitious, you are right but the devs made a few designing mistakes and were not able to test the balance enough and the effect is - the system can be easily abused and many skills/stats are overpowered or useless. I prefer soemthing that works over something shiny but broken but this is a only preference.
I just hope in AoD the character system will be shiny AND working.[/u]

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I was commenting on the system in general. While some creative use could have been found for Barter or Outdoorsman, the system itself leaves them blank, relying on someone else to find a good use for them, which is a sure way to end up with useless skills.

Barter is one of the most useful skills as it allows to obtain equipment much easier than normally - for example to get Combat Armour and Rocket Launcher in Hub.

Worth wasting points on it? Like I said, once you hit 75 points in a weapon skill, you can take anything you want. Why waste points on Barter?

Where can you "take" a rocket launcher or combat armour or other powerful weapons and ammo for them when searching for the Water Chip?

 

[Melcar]

The room is spinning.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't remember where I got them (since it's been awhile since I've played the game), but I never bartered for the launcher and I've never had any problems buying or finding the combat armor without any investments into Barter.

 

[denizsi]

No they don't.

Uh-huh.

 

[GarfunkeL]

You can buy Rocket Launcher in Hub but you need shitloads of caps and/or stuff or a high barter. Then you'll find one in the Glow. You can get one from the Gunrunners. There's several in Cathedral and Military Base, plus one in BoS, iirc. And there's also the possibility of a random encounter with super mutants who carry one.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I don't remember where I got them (since it's been awhile since I've played the game), but I never bartered for the launcher and I've never had any problems buying or finding the combat armor without any investments into Barter.

The only Combat Armour (and a lot of other stuff) in the Hub is in the Jake's store. Jake has a very high barter skill, so one needs to have a higher barter skill to buy it for a sensible price.
The next logical place to go is Necropolis because there aren't any clues that suggest that Water Chip is in another place.

 

[St. Toxic]

I was commenting on the system in general. While some creative use could have been found for Barter or Outdoorsman, the system itself leaves them blank, relying on someone else to find a good use for them, which is a sure way to end up with useless skills.

Again, the fact that you personally found Barter and Outdoorsman useless, does not mean that there's anything wrong with the character system. Your complaint lies with the implementation of the character system within the game.

Because there is no system there. There are stats, skills, and perks. Of course, it can be adapted to anything. What's the adapt? Every game has stats and skills.

So let's adapt the Witcher character system to Fallout as an experiment. How would it look?

Finally, what's wrong with the AC...

Doesn't make sense?

Starting AC equals your agility. AC is directly subtracted from chance to hit, meaning AC helps you avoid attacks. Left over AP's are added to the AC value at the end of each turn. Hope that helps.

Doesn't work with DR and DT? Eliminates a much needed defense skill with armor? Creates a linear progression of armor sets?

Why should it? You're dodging attacks with AC. Why is it much needed? You've already got AC, DR and DT -- did you really miss Dodge and Parry skills in Fallout? Why is this a problem? Did we really miss out by not having a stat drop with every piece of superior arms or armour?

... and what do you mean by "combat rules" in the context of a character system?

Directly related. I think that ruleset would have a better word to use though.

Now I'm really not sure what you mean. We're still talking about special as a character system, right? Guess not.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Again, the fact that you personally found Barter and Outdoorsman useless...

You personally found them very useful?

... does not mean that there's anything wrong with the character system. Your complaint lies with the implementation of the character system within the game.

You missed my point. Let's try again:

A list of skills is not a system. A system is a set of rules defining what each skill is, its role and gameplay effect and balance. Ideally, a developer shouldn't wonder how to make a skill useful because the system should provide the guidance. When a system hands a developer a list of skills and tells him to go nuts, then we get useless and unbalanced skills and poor attempts to make skills useful by attaching implants schematics to Doctor 75, for example, which is gimmick.

And that's what my point is. SPECIAL is a list of well defined stats and undefined skills.

Because there is no system there. There are stats, skills, and perks. Of course, it can be adapted to anything. What's the adapt? Every game has stats and skills.

So let's adapt the Witcher character system to Fallout as an experiment. How would it look?

Ok. Since you're trying to win on technicality, I replace "every game has stats and skills" with "every game THAT has stats and skills". The transition from TES to SPECIAL was easy because TES, much like SPECIAL, is nothing but a list of stats and skills.

Starting AC equals your agility. AC is directly subtracted from chance to hit, meaning AC helps you avoid attacks. Left over AP's are added to the AC value at the end of each turn. Hope that helps.

And then you put on heavy metal armor which miraculously increase your AC (up to 5 times more) and helps you avoid being hit even more. I can be the fastest bastard with AG 10, but if I put on that heavy metal junk on me, I'm gonna be 3 times better at dodging attacks. Yeah, that makes sense.

Why should it? You're dodging attacks with AC. Why is it much needed? You've already got AC, DR and DT -- did you really miss Dodge and Parry skills in Fallout? Why is this a problem? Did we really miss out by not having a stat drop with every piece of superior arms or armour?

The problem with this setup (AC + DR + DT) is that it makes you invulnerable once you get a decent armor. Only a rare (and unbalanced) critical could kill you, which is why you could wipe out towns, gangster families, and military bases terminator-style.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Starting AC equals your agility. AC is directly subtracted from chance to hit, meaning AC helps you avoid attacks. Left over AP's are added to the AC value at the end of each turn. Hope that helps.

And then you put on heavy metal armor which miraculously increase your AC (up to 5 times more) and helps you avoid being hit even more. I can be the fastest bastard with AG 10, but if I put on that heavy metal junk on me, I'm gonna be 3 times better at dodging attacks. Yeah, that makes sense.

I figured it also helped chance for attacks to be "scratch" only (like, the heavy metal armor would help deflecting blows better than the light leather jacket, which would offset the freedom of movement of the leather). In other words, the AC would do the job of dodge and parry. It's not just your character moving faster, it's his overall possibility of avoiding damage, not only avoiding being hit.

Why should it? You're dodging attacks with AC. Why is it much needed? You've already got AC, DR and DT -- did you really miss Dodge and Parry skills in Fallout? Why is this a problem? Did we really miss out by not having a stat drop with every piece of superior arms or armour?

The problem with this setup (AC + DR + DT) is that it makes you invulnerable once you get a decent armor. Only a rare (and unbalanced) critical could kill you, which is why you could wipe out towns, gangster families, and military bases terminator-style.

Yeah. For me, the game got a lot less interesting once I got the power armors. I know they are supposed to be a ticket to rapeville, but from a gameplay standpoint the combat turns into a slot machine where the only way to lose is to be unlucky enough for the enemy to score a freak 300 damage critical. It's just TOO good. Funny enough, they are "better" in FO3, since they don't give you the roflstomp +4 strength bonus (even though the bonus makes sense because of the servomotors thing, it's just too broken. A wimpy barely above than average strenght char becomes a melee god, making you rage at all the points invested into STR on your melee char)

 

[Vault Dweller]

I figured it also helped chance for attacks to be "scratch" only (like, the heavy metal armor would help deflecting blows better than the light leather jacket, which would offset the freedom of movement of the leather). In other words, the AC would do the job of dodge and parry. It's not just your character moving faster, it's his overall possibility of avoiding damage, not only avoiding being hit.

It would have worked if we didn't have both DR and DT. First, we get AC check. If you are hit, then DT (damage threshold) reduces the damage received by a certain amount. Then DR (damage resistance) reduces what's left even further by a percentage.

For example, power armor reduces the chance to hit you by 25 points, reduces the damage by 12 points and then reduces what's left by 40%. Combat shotgun has 15-25 damage range. DT reduces it to 3-13. DR reduces it to 1.8-7.8 IF someone manages to hit you. Against laser weapons, you get 80 DR and 18 DT, which means that a laser rifle (25-50) will do ((25-50)-18)*0.2=1.4-6.4 points of damage.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Exactly, it doesn't make sense.

 

[DefJam101]

Nice review, VD. Although I would've liked a little more information on the actual quality of the dialog/characters.

I watched a friend play it for 30 minutes or so... The shiny armor and ridiculous blood effects turned me away, but I may give it a shot after reading this review.

 

[St. Toxic]

Again, the fact that you personally found Barter and Outdoorsman useless...

You personally found them very useful?

You don't see me complaining.

... does not mean that there's anything wrong with the character system. Your complaint lies with the implementation of the character system within the game.

You missed my point. Let's try again:

A list of skills is not a system. A system is a set of rules defining what each skill is, its role and gameplay effect and balance. Ideally, a developer shouldn't wonder how to make a skill useful because the system should provide the guidance.

Let's say you have a game with your average basic range of skills, lockpicking included. Now, we've seen that shit a billion times; sometimes done right, sometimes done wrong. In this case, we have a gameworld with very few locks -- about 10 in the entire game, 6 of them optional, only 2 that will give in to brute force (majorly electrical then, so we're on a futuristic nuclear sub or something) and another 2 need to be removed by demolition.

Question: Do you leave lockpicking as an upgradable skill in the game, or do you remove it in favor of lockpicking methods that aren't character skill related? Do you keep the difficulty curve on the doors level to ensure that the player doesn't spend too many precious skillpoints on lockpicking, or allow for a progressive difficulty curve? How about shoving a good 200 locked doors into the game world, to justify the use of the skill, though their being there wouldn't make a whole lot of sense?

In my opinion, the skill is justified enough by the existence of those 10 doors. Comparing it to a speech or combat skill, which may have hundreds of little uses around this game world, it's not exactly the cure all, but in the end the skill still has a specific function which can be performed in at least 10 instances. If you've set your character up to be the best damn lockpicker ever without knowing what you were getting yourself into, there's nothing to blame the game for -- you either make that decision part of the game, or you restart as something more meta.

When a system hands a developer a list of skills and tells him to go nuts, then we get useless and unbalanced skills and poor attempts to make skills useful by attaching implants schematics to Doctor 75, for example, which is gimmick.

Balance is for fags, and it's also noticeable. I like my skillgroups fleshed out, and my gameworld coherent, which means as few skill related gameworld decisions as possible. Make it shine, then adapt it to the character system in a way that makes sense.

And that's what my point is. SPECIAL is a list of well defined stats and undefined skills.

Odd. I'm pretty sure the definition of the skills is right there in the description, if not in the name. You should look it up.

Because there is no system there. There are stats, skills, and perks. Of course, it can be adapted to anything. What's the adapt? Every game has stats and skills.

So let's adapt the Witcher character system to Fallout as an experiment. How would it look?

Ok. Since you're trying to win on technicality, I replace "every game has stats and skills" with "every game THAT has stats and skills". The transition from TES to SPECIAL was easy because TES, much like SPECIAL, is nothing but a list of stats and skills.

The transition was too easy. Just add some brown sand to Oblivion and talking robots, and you're in the money. Let's hope for your sake it's the colour brown that does it.

And you brought up the Witcher as a shining example of character systems, you deal with it. It's certainly backwards compatible with games like Rune and Quake 2, but hardly any rpg's.

Starting AC equals your agility. AC is directly subtracted from chance to hit, meaning AC helps you avoid attacks. Left over AP's are added to the AC value at the end of each turn. Hope that helps.

And then you put on heavy metal armor which miraculously increase your AC (up to 5 times more) and helps you avoid being hit even more.

Of course, because shots and hits glance off of the metal armour.

I can be the fastest bastard with AG 10, but if I put on that heavy metal junk on me, I'm gonna be 3 times better at dodging attacks. Yeah, that makes sense.

mora nr00fles!!!

Why should it? You're dodging attacks with AC. Why is it much needed? You've already got AC, DR and DT -- did you really miss Dodge and Parry skills in Fallout? Why is this a problem? Did we really miss out by not having a stat drop with every piece of superior arms or armour?

The problem with this setup (AC + DR + DT) is that it makes you invulnerable once you get a decent armor. Only a rare (and unbalanced) critical could kill you, which is why you could wipe out towns, gangster families, and military bases terminator-style.

And this is a problem how? A decent armour in the fucking wasteland is supposed to give you a righteous edge. Any baddies you come across that have the same edge are playing by the same rules, so what's your complaint here? That a crack addict can't kill you once you're in military gear with 6 months of combat experience on your back? Cry me a fucking river.

About wiping out towns, with some effort you could do it sans the armour. It's doable. It should be doable. A guard is just a guy. A shopkeeper is just a guy. They're not supposed to have superhuman capabilities, ala the guards in AoD combat demo. They're just people and you've already killed your own weight in raiders (or, a village worth of professional gladiators) -- not slitting civvie throats effortlessly is a service you provide when you're a royal badass. If that doesn't sit with you, make a game where you kill a total of 4 people with enormous difficulty in a 40 hour playthrough. There you have room to complain about somebody wiping out towns and organizations.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In my opinion, the skill is justified enough by the existence of those 10 doors. Comparing it to a speech or combat skill, which may have hundreds of little uses around this game world, it's not exactly the cure all, but in the end the skill still has a specific function which can be performed in at least 10 instances. If you've set your character up to be the best damn lockpicker ever without knowing what you were getting yourself into, there's nothing to blame the game for -- you either make that decision part of the game, or you restart as something more meta.

If we absolutely must have no more than 10 locks in the game, then having a skill is better than having some retarded mini-game. However, a question that begs to be asked is "why 10?" You counter it by saying "well, have 200 stupid locks then, let's see if you like it!" What's wrong with a more reasonable approach though?

Anyway, I didn't say anything about lockpicking. Gambling, barter, 2 medical skills, outdoorsman, throwing, etc are a different matter.

Balance is for fags, and it's also noticeable. I like my skillgroups fleshed out, and my gameworld coherent, which means as few skill related gameworld decisions as possible. Make it shine, then adapt it to the character system in a way that makes sense.

When you hand something to a developer (or any employee) and say "make it shine", without providing specific instructions (i.e. a well defined character system), you're gambling and the odds aren't in your favor.

Odd. I'm pretty sure the definition of the skills is right there in the description, if not in the name. You should look it up.

Undefined means that the supporting mechanics are not defined. Writing a few skill descriptions doesn't take long.

Of course, because shots and hits glance off of the metal armour.

Lasers, explosions, plasma, electricity, fire - everything just glances off. Good armor.

And this is a problem how? A decent armour in the fucking wasteland is supposed to give you a righteous edge. Any baddies you come across that have the same edge are playing by the same rules, so what's your complaint here? That a crack addict can't kill you once you're in military gear with 6 months of combat experience on your back? Cry me a fucking river.

The complaint is that once I get a decent armor with the magical glancing off properties I can kill anything I fucking want without any danger to myself. I can wipe out military bases, criminal families, etc. I mentioned that already, but your misdirection attempt was cute and appreciated.

About wiping out towns, with some effort you could do it sans the armour. It's doable. It should be doable. A guard is just a guy. A shopkeeper is just a guy.

One man, no matter how awesome, should NOT be able to kill entire towns, because he too is just a guy and can be killed.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

One man, no matter how awesome, should NOT be able to kill entire towns, because he too is just a guy and can be killed.

How about Cleve ?

Well, that's why he's a genuine dev', while you're just vaporware wannabe.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The complaint is that once I get a decent armor with the magical glancing off properties I can kill anything I fucking want without any danger to myself. I can wipe out military bases, criminal families, etc.

Can you do it without SFLing?

I remember having a lot of trouble with not getting killed when fighting organizations, even when in Power Armour.

 

[St. Toxic]

In my opinion, the skill is justified enough by the existence of those 10 doors. Comparing it to a speech or combat skill, which may have hundreds of little uses around this game world, it's not exactly the cure all, but in the end the skill still has a specific function which can be performed in at least 10 instances. If you've set your character up to be the best damn lockpicker ever without knowing what you were getting yourself into, there's nothing to blame the game for -- you either make that decision part of the game, or you restart as something more meta.

If we absolutely must have no more than 10 locks in the game, then having a skill is better than having some retarded mini-game. However, a question that begs to be asked is "why 10?" You counter it by saying "well, have 200 stupid locks then, let's see if you like it!" What's wrong with a more reasonable approach though?

You were crying gimmick before. You know how it works. You have a game world that makes sense, a character system that makes sense, but OH VEY the bridge between the two is stronger in some places and weaker in others! There's no patching it up without the player noticing that it's plastic padding, because the addition has neither roots in the gameworld nor the gameplay -- it's epoxy.

Anyway, I didn't say anything about lockpicking. Gambling, barter, 2 medical skills, outdoorsman, throwing, etc are a different matter.

I've done non-meta builds that have included those skills, and I certainly tried my hand at using them, with some success I may add. No complaints here. I wasn't exactly disillusioned about not being able to stop the mutants by gambling. The fact that there are alternatives to using these skills which may or may not be more effective hardly changes anything really. These skills make sense in the context of the game world and have their uses, even if you're able to breeze through the game with nothing more than sharp wits and a big gun.

I remember having a similar argument some years ago with a guy insisting that Luck should be removed out of role-playing games, because it was a non-tangible stat and possibly because he couldn't understand how Luck could range from 1-10. I understand his argument in the same way I guess I understand yours. Luck isn't a necessary stat, gambling (being by far the most single-use pointless skill) isn't a necessary skill -- but what is a post apocalyptic setting without gambling, and what is a simulation without controllable chance variables?

Balance is for fags, and it's also noticeable. I like my skillgroups fleshed out, and my gameworld coherent, which means as few skill related gameworld decisions as possible. Make it shine, then adapt it to the character system in a way that makes sense.

When you hand something to a developer (or any employee) and say "make it shine", without providing specific instructions (i.e. a well defined character system), you're gambling and the odds aren't in your favor.

Gameworld shouldn't be based on the character system, that was my point, and especially not with the idea that you want to achieve perfect balance between different skills with the world and gameplay reflecting this decision. If the last stage of the game has you gambling with death, using a previously wholly neglected skill, with no option to shoot your way out, I welcome it.

My idea of RPG's has always been heavy on the aspect of simulation, and that's what I always propagate -- consistency to the reality of the gameworld is what makes or breaks a game. There's no such thing as a world where one skill is as useful as another. Under the right circumstances being able to whip your dick out with tremendous speed is a whole lot more valuable than supremacy in the field of nuclear physics. Any attempt to remove either one or the other can only come as a post-actual review of that/those specific circumstance(s) in order to simplify the simulation thus cutting the workload in the process.

The most consistent game would be one where you're never limited by the game system in what you're doing. By this I do not mean a game system without skills, but a game system that has a skill for every action, and an action for every visual representation. Easily achievable in simple games and unanimously voted as impossible in more complex ones. Still, by that construct, slot machines and the like force gambling into being, forcing the skill gambling into being. A world map which is navigated via random peripherals, forces the skill outdoorsman into being, and so forth. Not saying Fallout came particularly close to fulfilling that image, but it made an attractive nod into the proper direction. Removing it would do more harm than good.

Odd. I'm pretty sure the definition of the skills is right there in the description, if not in the name. You should look it up.

Undefined means that the supporting mechanics are not defined. Writing a few skill descriptions doesn't take long.

I can look em' up for you if you want, or is your complaint that they're not a part of the description? Adding that shouldn't take too long either.

Lasers, explosions, plasma, electricity, fire - everything just glances off. Good armor.

Pretty gute, aye. How about we find fault with the visualisation of combat? Or just continue practising our imagination.

The complaint is that once I get a decent armor with the magical glancing off properties I can kill anything I fucking want without any danger to myself. I can wipe out military bases, criminal families, etc. I mentioned that already, but your misdirection attempt was cute and appreciated.

And this is a problem how? A decent armour in the fucking wasteland is supposed to give you a righteous edge. Any baddies you come across that have the same edge are playing by the same rules, so what's your complaint here? That a crack addict can't kill you once you're in military gear with 6 months of combat experience on your back? Cry me a fucking river.

About wiping out towns, with some effort you could do it sans the armour. It's doable. It should be doable. A guard is just a guy. A shopkeeper is just a guy.

One man, no matter how awesome, should NOT be able to kill entire towns, because he too is just a guy and can be killed.

What about a mutant army?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Toxic, dear, I'd love to stay and chat but I'm about to leave. I'll be more than happy to continue when I come back (in a week or so).

 

[CrimHead]

Technically, you just proved hjow retarded youa re.

 

[Paula Tormeson IV]

In much loved Gothic and Risen the character system was always the weakest aspect.

Playing a fighter in NotR and trying to find a good balance between to-hit-% and strength, and decide whether to use two-haned or one-handed weapons, what peripheral skills to learn, how much LP to use for increasing hit points, how to increase strength in other ways than by using LPs and when to take advantage of those other ways, were, as a whole, as much fun I've had with a character system.

The system as a whole was superficially simple, but offered more real c&c than the perennially unbalanced chaotic systems of million pointless and utterly predictable little tweaks in D&D games and similar imitations, in which you never actually end up using more than a few skills per character anyway, so they're less complex than Gothic in practice. In such games, usually, you choose a few skills and abilities you want to maximize and then try to maximize them - usually, you have enough points to upgrade all of those chosen skills & abilities every time you level up. The satisfaction felt when levelling up = zero. The interest in tweaking the character = boredom.

In NotR, you actually had to choose between two equally relevant skills if you were a fighter (to-hit-% and strength). You couldn't just keep increasing both as much as possible each time you levelled up. In D&D levelling up is a lot like the grading system in schools, there only to hide the tumbleweeds blowing past.