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Game News Vignettes & backgrounds in Dragon Age

Nick

Iron Tower Studio
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Dgaider said:
A guardedly positive Codex thread regarding Bioware?

If the game will have all of those features (described in the interview) implemented, some of the codexers will forget about your old sins.

Maybe.

In several years.

If you are lucky. :wink:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Dgaider said:
A guardedly positive Codex thread regarding Bioware?

Apparently I was transported over to Bizzarro world while I was sleeping... :shock:
It's the end of an era ...
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
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"Yes, now you just need to say the game will have a darker feel then previous Bioware titles, dialogue will be a major focus and include ways to effect your PC, and then go with a classless system with many non-combative ways to develop and you'll get a lot more positive feadback."

1. You are an idiot. Very few games have darker material than BIO games do. Afterall, not too many games allow yout to flaunt the death of a woman's children in her face. Or have a celebrated child killer.

2. Dialogue is ALWAYS a major focus in BIO games. And, they do in include ways to effect your PCs.

3. Classless systems outside of FO are overrated. Next dumb comment, please.

4. Yes, there could always be more non violent ways to complete quests. Then again, outside of FO series and Arcanum; no games give more non violent ways to complete quests than BIO ones that still make logical sense.



In conclusion, good sir, you are a moron.


R00fles!
 

z3r'0'

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Yah, good news.

Something ironic though ... ideas from Troika's Arcanum and ToEE games.

Lets hope Bioware don't drop the ball.
 

Spazmo

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Dgaider said:
A guardedly positive Codex thread regarding Bioware?

Well, it's just that compared to the shitheap that currently is the CRPG genre, BioWare is a highlight. Don't worry, though, Mass Effect sounds like complete shit.
 

Section8

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A guardedly positive Codex thread regarding Bioware?

Apparently I was transported over to Bizzarro world while I was sleeping...

I gotta say Dave, the stuff we've been hearing from you of late is very positive and bodes well for future Bonoware titles. But if it all turns out to be nothing more than empty rhetoric, I fully expect this place to redouble its Biofury.
 

Sol Invictus

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z3r'0' said:
Yah, good news.

Something ironic though ... ideas from Troika's Arcanum and ToEE games.

Lets hope Bioware don't drop the ball.

They are hardly original to Troika's games. Daggerfall had character origins. And Vignettes are a PNP thing.
 

Greatatlantic

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EDIT: Whoops, last time I have multiple pages opened to Codex Forums. This one totally went in the wrong thread. Maybe it will find its way back to its real parent someday. In the meantime...

Innovation, discuss.
 

Jinxed

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Sol Invictus said:
They are hardly original to Troika's games. Daggerfall had character origins. And Vignettes are a PNP thing.

Troika's game, and we're talking about computer games here right? Troika's idea as far as implenetation into a CRPG.
 

Seven

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I guess this game/news post deserves some type of response. Although I haven't been very active lately, I am hopeful.
 

Sol Invictus

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True I suppose. TOEE was the first CRPG to implement vignettes. Character origins were established in Daggerfall, though.
 

LlamaGod

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Character Origins in Arcanum were more a way to set up a different style of stats and stuff.

So therefore they DO effect your roleplaying, since roleplaying in that game is based off your abilites and stats, not back history.

Backstories in Daggerfall sucked crap.
 

Dgaider

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Just to be clear, though, there's a big difference between selecting a character background in a game like Morrowind or Arcanum, having an opening vignette like in ToEE and the origin stories in Dragon Age. I'm not claiming that we thought of it first, but it's pretty different from those games... as I explain in the quote at the beginning of the post: in Dragon Age, the background story you select gives you a unique opening chapter of play different from all the others and will affect the rest of the game.

I'm not going to overstate it, though. While it's a huge investment of time to do the various background stories (it's like doing a bunch of different Chapter 1's), it's not like it makes for an entirely different experience... there is a point where the stories converge into the main plot, not unlike everyone in ToEE ending up in Hommlett (although in Dragon Age the origin isn't forgotten at that point, certainly).

As far as whether or not Dragon Age will please you all... I'm not sure. It's hard to say. It's certainly leaning towards the more hardcore side of the RPG spectrum (it's the closest thing to the BG2 style of game we've done since that came out), but I'm not going to make broad claims either that it's everything you guys ever wanted and the next Fallout. I really doubt that's the case: this is still largely about party-based tactical combat. So make of it what you will.
 

LlamaGod

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not unlike everyone in ToEE ending up in Hommlett (although in Dragon Age the origin isn't forgotten at that point, certainly).

Only a few really ended in Hommlet. When they ended they gave you a direction to the main plot, too. (I replayed ToEE different ways pretty often)

Yours kinda converges into it, with the first chapter being different for different arch-types, then chapter 2 being the converging point. It's a more steamlined version, I guess.

The Lawful Good viginette in ToEE was great, it lasted until pretty much the end of the game.

It also made the most sense of them, I think. Chaotic Evil was a tad ehh and Chaotic Good made little sense (but wasnt that bad).

this is still largely about party-based tactical combat.

Can you go into any depth in that regard, mebbe? I dont mind parties if the character progression and combat is good, like Avernum.

It doesnt even have to be turn-based for tactical combat either, really. Freedom Force had very good combat and character progression, and was pretty tacticle too (but it WAS a bit more of an RTS, so..)
 

Dgaider

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LlamaGod said:
Can you go into any depth in that regard, mebbe? I dont mind parties if the character progression and combat is good, like Avernum.

It doesnt even have to be turn-based for tactical combat either, really. Freedom Force had very good combat and character progression, and was pretty tacticle too (but it WAS a bit more of an RTS, so..)

It's not turn-based, but we're not trying to stuff the D&D 6-second turns into a real-time system either. Nor are we going the more action-RPG route of, say, Jade Empire and Mass Effect though.

What you want insofar as depth goes, though, I don't know. What do you want to know? I could sit here all day and say that, sure, character progression and combat is going to be good. The proof of the pudding will still be in the eating, right? As a consumer of video games myself, I've heard enough promises from developers to last me several lifetimes. But if you have something specific that you want to know and it's not still liable to change (though many things are at this point, I'm afraid) I'd be happy to tell you where our thoughts lie.
 

LlamaGod

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Well, in the way of character progression, is more like increasing your power or more like developing the characters in different manners?

Like in a D&D game, a character just gains stats and new spells and picks feats to boslter them.

But then in Fallout, I guess, you can have a character but design him in different ways.

And then from that, do different ways matter in combat?

The problem with Baldurs Gate for me was you just had everyone just blast all at one thing.

A nice thing about Freedom Force was all the different resistances and uses for different abilites the characters could have. So you had to plan your attacks out some and direct people instead of EVERYONE - HERE!

Also, I just kinda wanted you to explain how it works, like how an encounter might go in the game. Also how the character system works.

I mostly just want a relatively free, but structured character system the most. My problem with Elder SCroll's system is there is no structure, but I dont like have only really 1 path like in D&D games.
 

kris

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Dgaider said:
as I explain in the quote at the beginning of the post: in Dragon Age, the background story you select gives you a unique opening chapter of play different from all the others and will affect the rest of the game.

I'm not going to overstate it, though. While it's a huge investment of time to do the various background stories (it's like doing a bunch of different Chapter 1's), it's not like it makes for an entirely different experience... there is a point where the stories converge into the main plot, not unlike everyone in ToEE ending up in Hommlett (although in Dragon Age the origin isn't forgotten at that point, certainly).

as i will babble here I begin with a question. Can you give some idea of how many background packages there is? How many will it be per race?

I said before that this is the most exciting aspect of Dragon age I heard of. Obviously it is not going all the way, but it will make for more involving play and from what I can gather will bring quite a bit of replayability. For any roleplayer background can be a very important part of their character and create a lot of roleplaying moments.

Whoever compared with MMORPG, please don't! Those dumbfuck games only have a racial starting point, there is no background for your character whatsoever, more than what you imagine in your mind.

I had some ideas on how background could be made here: http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10026

To elaborate on this. I know all the extra work that will have to be done to make involving and well put out backgrounds when we talk about having several choices. Having it like you have done is a limit, but less of an limit than other story based games. I am sure some will complain that they "have to" choose one of the presented background because they imagined their character another way. That is one of the prices. Now in my eyes there could have been a more open system here. One were several packages is choosen or even more involving, you play out the character like in Fable, but this time actually having that played backgound matter :D In some ways having the playing out play like you choose packages, I can thinkof hundreds of clever ideas how to do that. Like how you play as a kid and then can ask parents why you don't have a sibling, then affecting getting one.

Packages. To not lock players I would like to have a tiered package system. Like this:

First race and sex is choosen.

package 1. Choose background location. Have for example 5 different places the player can start in (like you do now, but not having it locked to rest of background). The quirk is having places that would make the other packages/options fitting in.

package 2. Choose family option. again having some options. Have to be limited, but with more options than other packages. Could have some fun options like considering parents siblings and their place in the world, which would be great for story reasons. The alternative is having a separate package/choice for the family/PCs place in the social ladder. Options like royal family should probably be avoided, if not royal in some shithole. ;)

package 3. Background upbringing, what he did in his youth. in some ways this could tie in with class, but even if class have little to do with it it surely defines the character and flesh him out. Did the character follow his father to hunt deer? Did he just play along iwth the other kids? Did he sit and study with the old man in the tower? Should/could in some way be limited by what family the character had.

package 4. Friend. some options to someone the character befriended. Great for putting in quests and having someone in the story that can help the character in some ways (could tie in with choice package 3). A monk that happen to help you in chapter 3 of the game? A tavernkeeper that lets you sleep and eat for free and maybe gives help in giving "hints"/rumours. They could also affect your stats/abilities in some ways.

Package 5. Special event. YOU ARE THE CHOOSEN ONE!!!! Ok, maybe not that, but in some ways like the ones in Arcanum. Like having been bitten by a snake. Having met a mage that gave learned you a special spell or a warrior that teached you a special move. Been captured and escaped slavers.

Package 6. Class, work or similar. Depends on system in the game. The most important choice for skills, can be done in many ways, from a more traditional, to a more flexible to a more less flexible that is locked due to choice of package.

Now I could come up with more packages and choice, but this gives a idea of how to create a more flexible system that is not to much work and still gives the player a sense of freedom of choice. If there is for example 5 starting locations you only need to put in or have the options to put in the things choosen in other packages. Some quests can be used for several locations with small or no changes. Same with family (but possibly having something random with them).

... I could talk about this forever ;)
 

Elwro

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Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Nice piece of info. Please work on the game for as long as it takes to prepare a finished, polished, relatively bugfree product. What I've read in this thread makes me think that the game might be a good RPing experience, and I'd hate for that to be ruined by technicalities.
 

kris

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LlamaGod said:
And then from that, do different ways matter in combat?

The problem with Baldurs Gate for me was you just had everyone just blast all at one thing.

A nice thing about Freedom Force was all the different resistances and uses for different abilites the characters could have. So you had to plan your attacks out some and direct people instead of EVERYONE - HERE!

A inherent problem when combat is sorerly about hitting down the healthbar to zero. Then it makes sense to take out one at a time. The only thing beside that in a game like Baldurs gate is spelleffects. Spelleffect is mostly about delaying opponents though.

We need either to get in fatal/serious injuries in the game or to put mechanics on how important facing/hitting from behind is. If NPCs get a big bonus from hitting you from behind or the side then you won't use everyone to focus on one enemy. Freedom force of course did away with it with special effects of powers and how some enemies was weaker against some attacks and stronger against others.
 

Dgaider

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LlamaGod said:
I mostly just want a relatively free, but structured character system the most. My problem with Elder SCroll's system is there is no structure, but I dont like have only really 1 path like in D&D games.

Without going into detail, I think this is what you should get. Our system is class-based, but inside of those classes you'll have a lot of paths open to development... and you cannot possibly follow them all, so one "fighter" is very likely to look quite different from another.

Of course, it's still in question whether or not we can balance those paths to avoid cherry-picking and to make sure that they all have relevance... even the non-combat stuff. If we end up in a situation where you MUST take such-and-such a skill at level 1 and this other one at level 3, well that wouldn't be good.
 

Dgaider

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kris said:
Can you give some idea of how many background packages there is? How many will it be per race?)

Probably less then you think. Considering the amount of work needed for each one, it does mean that you're going to only have a limited number of options when it comes to the origins.

Basically what we're doing is covering the basic archetypes... not the fantasy tropes, really, but more the cultural ones for our world. So you might have the option to begin as a noble or commonor of a particular race, and then we would start you off as that... you begin the game learning what it means to be part of that culture and class, what the Dragon Age world is about from your particular perspective, we give you roots in the world and leave it up to you to determine how your character feels about everything and what his goals are... and then transition you into the rest of the story.

Some of the origins are also class-based out of necessity, and with those you have no option. If becoming a Knight of Damaron (as a theoretical example) means you have to spend all your young life squiring at a particular castle... well, then the origin will likely start you off as a squire at that castle and will go from there.

And I agree there will be people who won't like having their early life defined this much. If you consider, however, Baldur's Gate had one origin story... you were the Sheltered Orphan, and the ensuing story started you off at Candlekeep under the watchful eye of Gorion. Now imagine that you could start BG as a noble in Baldur's Gate itself, as a farmer's son in Nashkel, or one of various other plots, and that each of those beginnings had a whole section like where you got to wander Candlekeep (though more significant in Dragon Age's case) and ended with Sarevok coming for you and getting involved in that plot... and that origin then putting a slightly different twist on the entire story and being remembered whenever it applied and not simply discarded once the first chapter was done.

That's about as fully as I can explain it, I think.
 

Chefe

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That sounds badass. And covering cultural archetypes is, IMO, better. I'd rather have to choose between coming from a noble or farmer family than choosing whether I was a warrior or mage in hero training (I think that's what you were talking about).

I personally think that they only people against the idea of choosing a predefined origin have never experienced it before (i.e. 14 year old RPG n00bs) who buy into all this crap from developers that say "It's YOU in the game! Make believe your own background!". I liked choosing a short background in Arcanum, I liked how Daggerfall generate a little background story based on the questions I answered, and if this is pulled off right I'm probably going to like DA's vignette the most.


Oh and, there's no amnesia thing again, is there? ;)
If I choose my beginning as a smuggler, I'm not going to find out half way through the game that I was really some great warlord but had my memories erased, right?
 

Drakron

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Yes, it SOUNDS and that is the problem ... I remenber hearing stuff over Jade Empire that never end up in the game.

I admit is a good idea and I did not expected BonoWare to make it (since inovative stuff comes from new players) but its one thing saying "we are doing this" and it actually being in the game and not be cut during development.
 

Dgaider

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Chefe said:
I personally think that they only people against the idea of choosing a predefined origin have never experienced it before (i.e. 14 year old RPG n00bs) who buy into all this crap from developers that say "It's YOU in the game! Make believe your own background!". I liked choosing a short background in Arcanum, I liked how Daggerfall generate a little background story based on the questions I answered, and if this is pulled off right I'm probably going to like DA's vignette the most.

Keep in mind, though, that Arcanum's and Daggerfall's backgrounds were just something you selected. They didn't change how the game started out, though they might have affected dialogue choices later on (in Arcanum, anyhow... I'm not sure about Daggerfall). You could select, say, "circus freak" as your background and perhaps even receive a blurb of text before the game begins of how you came to be where you're at, but in Arcanum everyone started play right after the zeppelin crash and in Daggerfall everyone started play in prison.

Consider what it might have been like if you had been given a small selection of background options in Arcanum and, instead of starting after the zeppelin crash, you could begin play in other areas each with its own initial issues that you needed to deal with and slowly were inserted into the story from that point. Impossible? Not at all. From what I can remember, Arcanum had a sort of "chosen one" plot... you could just as easily be attacked whether you were aboard the zeppelin as anywhere else in the world, survive that attack, and enter things that way.

Trying to do it this way, though, is a hell of a lot of work.

At the other end of the scale, of course, is something like Icewind Dale. Your party could be nobles, peasants, whatever... the game doesn't consider that fact at all. You start off the game at the same place always and are simply faceless adventurers. Some people might prefer that, I suppose, and they simply won't get much out of this feature... but that's no reason not to try doing something different.

Oh and, there's no amnesia thing again, is there? ;)
If I choose my beginning as a smuggler, I'm not going to find out half way through the game that I was really some great warlord but had my memories erased, right?

Nope. There's no amnesia, no discovery of anything that makes your origin untrue. You really, truly are whatever you selected. You are also not the Chosen One, there is no prophecy of any kind involved, and you have not been selected by the gods or by destiny to take the path you do (except in the larger sense by being the protaganist of the story, I suppose).
 

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