VTMB: Camarilla vs Anarchs

[zool]

I was replaying this little gem of a game recently and I came to wonder with which faction Codexers usually side. It seems obvious to me that the Camarilla vs Anarchs debate in Bloodlines is basically a metaphor for the debate between the supporters of a strong state and libertarians IRL.

The Anarchs are a pretty cool crew (Jack, Nines, Skelter - Damsel is an annoying bitch and portrayed as such). I don't doubt for a second that many Codexers usually side with them. They wholeheartedly reject the Camarilla and embrace freedom. Let's break down their argument into two parts:

1. They reject Camarilla politics - basically, they see the Camarilla as a tool for powerful elders to revel in their power while those at the bottom live and die serving their petty schemes.
2. They reject Camarilla as a policymaking body - I think it's Skelter saying that the Camarilla rules (regarding the Masquerade, etc...) are "common sense bullshit".

This traditional distinction between policymaking (aka the noble part) and politics (aka the struggle for power) has some merit. However, it is of limited use because both parts are so much intertwined it's nearly impossible to eliminate one of them (presumably the "politics" part) and only keep the other. It is unclear at a present time how a political regime can get rid of politics while having a somewhat democratical way of making policy. Actually, even in non-democratic regimes, dictators rarely rule without having to take into account local politics. That said, the distinction has some merit because it sets a goal: trying to reduce the role of politics as a determinant of policymaking as much as possible - that is to a reasonably low level.

So all in all, the Anarchs' denunciation of Camarilla politics is legitimate even if it's idealistic.

The same cannot be said of the second reason for which they reject the Camarilla i.e its existence as a policymaking body is not necessary. Many rules the Camarilla enforces (especially regarding the Masquerade) are "common sense bullshit" indeed. But would vampires really respect them if no one was there to enforce them? In real life, preserving the environment is common sense, but will people and countries do it if there are no governements to force them to do so? In the game, Lacroix is a self-absorbed manipulative prick, but some of his remarks on power are not to be brushed aside lightly. Wielding power is an aphrodisiac but it is also a great responsibility indeed.

 

[Radisshu]

The anarchs are pretty stupid to believe in a "free" vampire society when the Sabbat exists.

LaCroix isn't a very good representative of the Camarilla at all since he's all in it for the power and not the upholding of the Masquerade (I think he wanted to diablerize the antedeluvian believed to be in the sarcophagus), so I usually go for Strauss when playing Bloodlines.

 

[Jools]

anarchs.

 

[Jaesun]

The anarchs are pretty stupid to believe in a "free" vampire society when the Sabbat exists.

LaCroix isn't a very good representative of the Camarilla at all since he's all in it for the power and not the upholding of the Masquerade (I think he wanted to diablerize the antedeluvian believed to be in the sarcophagus), so I usually go for Strauss when playing Bloodlines.

Agreed, however I think that the flaws in the Anarchs beliefs as well as LaCroix poor leadership were intentional. I've sided with all 3 before, but prefer Strauss as well.

 

[Storyfag]

Derp poll has too few options. AFAIK the possible endings include:

a) Siding with the Camarilla
b) Siding with the Anarchs
c) Siding with LaCroix himself
d) Siding with the Kuei-jin
e) Remaining a lone wolf and opening the sarcophagus
f) Remaining a lone wolf and not opening the sarcophagus

Since there's a sad lack of e) Siding with the Sabbat, I tend to go for e) and LARP not slaughtering the Sabbat through the use of cheat codes in their hieout. Only one or two must be killed there, plus Andriei. Well, said one or two must be his cronies that support him in the internal Sabbat power struggle against me

 

[Phelot]

I don't get why the Sabbat doesn't just come out into the open and start a huge war, especially how chaotic they seem.

The anarchs don't seem like they'd keep the Masquerade as well as the Camarilla since it really comes down to the anarchs having to be in the right mood to want to deal with someone breaking it.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

I fought my way up to the tower and took the sarcophagus for myself.

 

[Jaesun]

I fought my way up to the tower and took the sarcophagus for myself.

Next time you play, be sure to side with the Kuei-jin. SOMETHING AWESOME HAPPENS!

 

[Bluebottle]

I sided with the Anarchs the only time I've played it. Not because of any real belief that their outlook is the most realistic, or workable, but because it's a game, and playing a game allows me to indulge the wishful side of myself, without really having to consider whether it'd work out in the long run.

 

[Volrath]

Camarilla + Strauss = win

 

[ghostdog]

Fuck them all, I side with myself.

 

[Xor]

The Camerilla are actually pretty much all like LaCroix in the sense that they're power-mad, or at least the higher-ups are. They just tend to be a lot more subtle about it.

I don't get why the Sabbat doesn't just come out into the open and start a huge war, especially how chaotic they seem.

Their leadership keeps them in check, for the most part. While the lower-level guys are thugs, their leaders are all older vampires like Andre, and they don't want human attention just as much as the Camerilla doesn't, at least until they're in a position to take over.

 

[Gragt]

Many rules the Camarilla enforces (especially regarding the Masquerade) are "common sense bullshit" indeed. But would vampires really respect them if no one was there to enforce them?

That's assuming society as a whole won't enforce these rules if they are broken and one clueless git endangers the whole community. Yet every society decides on what it accepts and doesn't, and you do not necessarily need a governing body for that to happen. The point of the anarchs is that they do not need specially mandated enforcers to do a job the whole community can do itself because it concerns each of its members.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

I would have sided with Sabbat but there wasn't an option for that. Anarchs the first time because it seemed like a pretty natural choice, I have tried Strauss and LaCroix also. The Kuei-Jin are filthy Chinese or whatever. Don't care much about ideology in a game, about the only games which appeal to me in that sort of way are ones without much or any civilization.

And Sabbat is at open war with Camarilla, Setites and some others. It spawned from the original Anarch Revolt which was about the elders oppressing their childer and whatnot, also resulting in the formation of the Camarilla. The Sabbat often attempts to breach the Masquerade when attacking Camarilla cities, trying to weaken the Prince's position and all that. Also I believe I read somewhere that the Sabbat started WW2, but I can't be sure about WoD's often retconned fantasy history really.

 

[Xor]

As far as I remember, according to Mage: the Ascension a group of nephandi started WW2. The traditionalists blamed the technocrats and the technocrats blamed the traditionalists. Good times.

Anyway. The Kuei-jin aren't really fleshed out enough in Bloodlines. There's no logical reason to side with them; pretty much every vampire tells you not to trust them and it's pretty obvious if you read between the lines that whats-her-name not only hired the were-shark to kill you but also kidnapped that nosferatu.

 

[zool]

In my most recent playthough, I chose to side with the Camarilla + Strauss. Before that, I only finished the game once and went with Lacroix (the ending got me ). I've yet to see the other endings but I'm keeping them for future playthoughs, so NO SPOILERS PLZ!

Even though the vote count for the poll is still low, I'm surprised to see that Camarilla and Anarchs are on the same level so far. It seems Codexers lust for order more than one could have assumed.

 

[Jaesun]

Voting Anarchs, only in that on my first playthrough (which is what should really count for this poll), even with their flawed beliefs, there were BRO's. And LaCroix just pissed me off, I wanted to kill that fucker.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

I picked the "lone wolf/leave the sarcophagus alone" ending on my first playthrough (didn't trust anybody at that point, which was more of a motivation than political preferences), then tried most of the other options as well. The different endings were great, the boss fights and the amount of combat you had to endure in order to get to them -- not so much.

 

[visions]

Went with Anarchs on my first and so far only playthrough.

 

[Cassidy]

Considering how obvious it was that there was nothing else to expect from Camarilla than the old fags playing with the new fags as puppets, with LaCroix being a bitch, because two of the coolest and most badass NPCs were anarchs and one of them saved the PC life twice while the other saved the PC life once, and after hearing that LA was the last Anarch Free State, it was an easy choice.

Of course, the fact I am a lolbertarian had nothing to do with it.

 

[racofer]

The first time I played without knowing jack shit about the game I ended up getting the lone wolf ending where I didn't open the sarcophagus. It was quite satisfying to see LaCroix being blown up and Nines with that face of "WTF" as I turned my back on him and walked away.

The anarchs are pretty stupid to believe in a "free" vampire society when the Sabbat exists.

LaCroix isn't a very good representative of the Camarilla at all since he's all in it for the power and not the upholding of the Masquerade (I think he wanted to diablerize the antedeluvian believed to be in the sarcophagus), so I usually go for Strauss when playing Bloodlines.

Later playthroughs, however, showed me this is the best and the most satisfying approach. I you, Radisshu.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I don't get why the Sabbat doesn't just come out into the open and start a huge war, especially how chaotic they seem.

Actually, two (the best ones, the others are hipster wannabe artfag shit) of the official end scenarios for Vampire in the Gehenna scenario book do involve vampires being outed and various things happening. In one, several countries do end up trying to use military force to eradicate the vampires, but the local Methuselah's curb stomp their new enemies, and later Set emerging in Egypt and conquering the world. The other one had Tzimisce curb stomp all of the earth. At times they finally perfected the whole balance between issue between horror game and vampiric superpowers as well (my favourite scenario involved the player characters join up with Vykos, that Nosferatu prince from New York, that Ventrue dude and other named characters in an effort to kill the Antediluvians one by one and find the reborn Saulot before someone unbeatable like Set finds him. It had a nice bit where you enter the sealed ancient vampire city of Kaymakli, it was great stuff with ghosts and Giovanni being driven mad from hunger and weakness).

WoD abandoned the idea of mankind having a chance against the supernatural world in a fight at some point when they realised that even the average fully grown vampires and werewolves and shit are so goddamn powerful there's not a chance. And that's before they pulled the Week of Nightmares, with Zapathusura (the Ravnos Antediluvian) slaughtering a shitload of people in India before being confronted by the three Boddhisattvas of the Kuei-Jin, who then got into a DBZ fight in Bangladesh, who then got noticed by the Technocracy who used magically empowered nukes on the area before using orbital mirrors to scorch the Antediluvian.

EDIT: I never actually got much of a libertarian vibe off the Anarchs in VTMB. Then again, I never saw the vampire politics as having much of a parallel in real life, structures aside.

 

[Notorious]

I fought my way up to the tower and took the sarcophagus for myself.

On my 1st playthrough I did the same, one of the best endings (And most suprising) I ever had.(Kuei-jin option was funny too though)

Other then that Lone Wolf ending.

 

[Phelot]

I don't get why the Sabbat doesn't just come out into the open and start a huge war, especially how chaotic they seem.

Actually, two (the best ones, the others are hipster wannabe artfag shit) of the official end scenarios for Vampire in the Gehenna scenario book do involve vampires being outed and various things happening. In one, several countries do end up trying to use military force to eradicate the vampires, but the local Methuselah's curb stomp their new enemies, and later Set emerging in Egypt and conquering the world. The other one had Tzimisce curb stomp all of the earth. At times they finally perfected the whole balance between issue between horror game and vampiric superpowers as well (my favourite scenario involved the player characters join up with Vykos, that Nosferatu prince from New York, that Ventrue dude and other named characters in an effort to kill the Antediluvians one by one and find the reborn Saulot before someone unbeatable like Set finds him. It had a nice bit where you enter the sealed ancient vampire city of Kaymakli, it was great stuff with ghosts and Giovanni being driven mad from hunger and weakness).

WoD abandoned the idea of mankind having a chance against the supernatural world in a fight at some point when they realised that even the average fully grown vampires and werewolves and shit are so goddamn powerful there's not a chance. And that's before they pulled the Week of Nightmares, with Zapathusura (the Ravnos Antediluvian) slaughtering a shitload of people in India before being confronted by the three Boddhisattvas of the Kuei-Jin, who then got into a DBZ fight in Bangladesh, who then got noticed by the Technocracy who used magically empowered nukes on the area before using orbital mirrors to scorch the Antediluvian.

MADNESS!!!! MAAAAAAAAAADNESS!!!!!!

TBH, I know jack shit about WoD. I have a few pdfs of the books. Isn't it broken up into the two settings of fantasy and modern?

EDIT: But it's mentioned in game that vampires are afraid of an outright war with humanity since the discovery of such gems like incendiary weapons and firearms.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

Considering:
1) Kuei-jin, as presented in the game, don't do justice to what/how they actually are in WoD.
2) Path of interaction with them in the game is limited to what little devs have provided.
3) The Kuei-jin ending.
...there isn't much point to siding with them, unfortunately.

Camarilla's all facade and backstabbing politics, rather detached from reality of impending Gehenna, with elders clinging to what 'power' they have over the underlings, as if that would somehow protect them. That house of cards was not my cup of tea, especially with a jester like LaCroix as the local prince.

Anarchs, while being cool kids and all, aren't much of a power beyond the territories Camarilla or Sabbat has little to no interest in. It's better than being on your own (especially, as a neophyte) and you aren't as much a slave to the elders as in Camarilla/Sabbat, but if your clan's Independent (like Gangrel, shortly after the game's events), might as well go with the latter.

So, yeah, my preferred choice was to give them all the finger. Suicide, by WoD setting, but by the end of the game, our Chosen One could go toe-to-toe with the elders - at least, by abilities, if not by centures worth of experience and resources.