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Editorial Warren Spector against tyranny of choices

psorcerer

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Vault Dweller said:
But according to your earlier post, Fallout doesn't have a story because NPCs lack chemistry. Where does that fit into your definition? Also, what's wrong with the PC taking parts in a story?

It fits right in place where anything not related to your actions is not developed.
Err...I assume that PC by interacting with the game world changes it's story.

Yet there are games like Fallout that don't follow that pattern, so why not look at the best for examples of a good design instead of agreeing with Spector. In Fallout you can play the entire game without killing anybody. Did you know that?

Yeah, i know that. Although playing Fallout in such a way is incredibly dull and tedious. But you can put down the checkmark - it can be finished by not using weapons.

Social ones? What social ones? I hope you're not one of them simming folks.

Social game is a game where you play some social role (like clan member).
So the course of the game is noticebly influenced by who you sitck with.

A Final Fantasy fan, aren't we? Can't say that I'm shocked.

Fan of good games i'll put it (if you play every game on the market since 1998 you'll start to develop some sort of taste). And Fallout is not on the list. :)

Trial and error approach is not equal to thinking in any case.
Because the knowlege of game mechanics and logic can be aquired only by using hints and clues withing game itself. When you use trial-and-error you're just throwing game world rules away. It's not "using wit" it's "using brute force" and the greatest of all save/load magic.

Saint_Proverbius said:
Eh? Hell, that puzzle's so damned old

I'm not talking about the canister puzzle, it was already ancient then i attended the elementary school. But about the "Who killed the spy?" puzzle. No logical choice - good
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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psorcerer said:
It fits right in place where anything not related to your actions is not developed.
Are you aware that what you type doesn't make any sense? First you said that "I call "story" to anything in the world not affected by PC actions", then you said that "anything not related to your actions is not developed". So which one is it?

Err...I assume that PC by interacting with the game world changes it's story.
Not necessarily. First of all, in any story there are many things that could be done differently without breaking or changing the story. Take KOTOR for example, does it really matter which gang you side with to save Bastilla? The point is that you did. Second, what if ... hold your breath... there are several stories, and you can choose which one you'd like to play?

Yeah, i know that. Although playing Fallout in such a way is incredibly dull and tedious. But you can put down the checkmark - it can be finished by not using weapons.
There are people who like it, just as there are people who shoot anything that moves. The point here is that not everything has to end with combat as you claimed previously

Social game is a game where you play some social role (like clan member).
So the course of the game is noticebly influenced by who you sitck with.
Can you be even more specific? What games are you talking about it?

Fan of good games i'll put it (if you play every game on the market since 1998 you'll start to develop some sort of taste). And Fallout is not on the list. :)
Since 98? I don't recall many good games since 98, so I don't know what kinda taste you managed to develop. Somehow I doubt that you liked Arcanum.
 

Volourn

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Gah Once again, youc an't play a pacifist in FO. That's a mythical myth. And, no, I'm not gonna argue it; it's just plain fact
 

Vault Dweller

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I'm not very clear what are you babbling about. Are you saying that you can't go through Fallout without killing anybody or that you can't play as a pacifist?
 

Volourn

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"you can't play a pacifist in FO."

Thought I was quite clear. :) :wink:
 

Voss

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Actually, you could...
but sooner or later you'd be a dead pacifist.
:twisted:
 

Vault Dweller

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And what's that got to do with anything? :?

Edit: that's a reply to Volourn, of course
 

Volourn

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In you and SP's arguments with the Foolish One; you guysstated that you could beat Fo as a pacifist. As per usual, I have to disagree.

Man, you and your incessant questions. I've argued this before and the facts are still quite clear. :twisted:
 

psorcerer

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Vault Dweller said:
Are you aware that what you type doesn't make any sense? First you said that "I call "story" to anything in the world not affected by PC actions", then you said that "anything not related to your actions is not developed". So which one is it?

Both. I call "story" to things that happen or already happened to the game world when PC is not present there. If the game world "lives" which mean developes this so called "story" while player is not present - it's a good story. If the world consists of talking heads and pillars and nothing happens if it's not chosen by player - it's a bad story.
See, the storytelling of a game can be seriously hampered by variety of choices just because you start to think that your avatar = you when a lot of choices are present, and your avatar failures become your failures, so instead of "it's sad" it gets to "it's frustrating", instead of compassion it becomes dullness and so on.

Not necessarily. First of all, in any story there are many things that could be done differently without breaking or changing the story.

And what's the point in doing something if it doesn't affect anything?

There are people who like it, just as there are people who shoot anything that moves. The point here is that not everything has to end with combat as you claimed previously

Err...I've seen far better "non combat" games than Fallout, like TLJ or Syberia.
This way of playing FO was there just for the checkmark not more than that.

Can you be even more specific? What games are you talking about it?

But I've already said that there are no such games. It's either cRPGs with lots of combat and nothing else, or adventures with good story and point-and-click.

Since 98? I don't recall many good games since 98, so I don't know what kinda taste you managed to develop. Somehow I doubt that you liked Arcanum.

Err...I've played the games before that, but I've played almost every single one of them since 98.
And I do know of good games since 98, and it's indeed not Arcanum. :)
Take an Outcast as a good example.
 

Vault Dweller

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Volourn said:
In you and SP's arguments with the Foolish One; you guysstated that you could beat Fo as a pacifist. As per usual, I have to disagree.
Why? Can you show me where you absolutely positively have to shoot somebody in the face with extreme prejudice? Besides, being a pacifist has nothing to do with a peaceful path, you don't have to be opposed to violence, you may just suck at it. :wink:

Man, you and your incessant questions.
It's a part of my master plan to weaken your will to resist the Unity :)
 

Vault Dweller

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psorcerer said:
No, it can't be both, because according to your definitions they are mutually exclusive.

If the game world "lives" which mean developes this so called "story" while player is not present - it's a good story. If the world consists of talking heads and pillars and nothing happens if it's not chosen by player - it's a bad story
So, in Fallout things are happening when you're not present, lotsa things, in fact, yet you called its story bad. That's the problem with your arguments, you contradict yourself at every step.

See, the storytelling of a game can be seriously hampered by variety of choices just because you start to think that your avatar = you when a lot of choices are present, and your avatar failures become your failures, so instead of "it's sad" it gets to "it's frustrating", instead of compassion it becomes dullness and so on.
That definitely doesn't make any sense.

Not necessarily. First of all, in any story there are many things that could be done differently without breaking or changing the story.
And what's the point in doing something if it doesn't affect anything?
Who said anything about not affecting? It affects a lot of thing if a game is done right, yet it doesn't break or change the story. You can do a lot of things in Fallout, yet it doesn't change the overall story, same with Arcanum.

Err...I've seen far better "non combat" games than Fallout, like TLJ or Syberia.
This way of playing FO was there just for the checkmark not more than that.
What's your point? I've seen far better combat games then Fallout. So? We are talking about role-playing games. Can you comprehend that simple concept?

Can you be even more specific? What games are you talking about it?
But I've already said that there are no such games. It's either cRPGs with lots of combat and nothing else, or adventures with good story and point-and-click.
I give up.

And I do know of good games since 98, and it's indeed not Arcanum. :)
Take an Outcast as a good example.
Ok, we get it, you like adventure games. Good for you, really. Now, seeing that this is a role-playing site, and that we discuss things like story, choices, and such, from the role-playing point of view, your ideas on adventure games are not really relevant. Comparing Fallout to Syberia is plain stupid, btw.
 

psorcerer

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Role-Player said:
Er, no. You're actualing using the game's rules to determine how to achieve success in the element you're testing.

And how's that, if you don't have hints or clues about their existence?

Vault Dweller said:
No, it can't be both, because according to your definitions they are mutually exclusive.

I give up.

So, in Fallout things are happening when you're not present, lotsa things, in fact, yet you called its story bad.

Example?

Who said anything about not affecting? It affects a lot of thing if a game is done right, yet it doesn't break or change the story. You can do a lot of things in Fallout, yet it doesn't change the overall story, same with Arcanum.

Change - doesn't mean break. How exactly is something's affecting the other thing if it doesn't change the other thing?

So? We are talking about role-playing games. Can you comprehend that simple concept?

It's a totally wrong concept to get bound to the game genre. Genres are used to define things, to understand them better but not to limit the possibilities of the gameplay.
But alas, If you see the RPG like some "well-defined" "Fallout-like" game - I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion.
I see one and only limitation the term RPG implies: you should play a "role" in the game. That's it.
So if the adventure games have better stories - try to make RPG stories at least not worse. If the combat in some games is far more interesting - make it interesting in your game. Don't comfort yourself with lame excuses.
 

Vault Dweller

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psorcerer said:
Role-Player said:
Er, no. You're actualing using the game's rules to determine how to achieve success in the element you're testing.
And how's that, if you don't have hints or clues about their existence?
And that is a proof that morons are unable to play games that don't feature "moron indicators"(tm). It's a reference to one of our previous discussions, psorcerer, don't take it personally.

Vault Dweller said:
No, it can't be both, because according to your definitions they are mutually exclusive.
I give up.
You see, your arguments are so confusing and contradicting, that even you got lost and couldn't figure what the hell you were talking about. :lol:

So, in Fallout things are happening when you're not present, lotsa things, in fact, yet you called its story bad.
Example?
Examples? You said that you played it, didn't you? Anyway, I'll give you a hint: Necropolis. If you played the game, you know what I'm talking about. If not, then go play it if you want to use the game as a reference.

Change - doesn't mean break. How exactly is something's affecting the other thing if it doesn't change the other thing?
Reminds me of Analyze This. How can we discuss the first thing without bringing up the second thing? :lol: Anyway, let's take KOTOR again, for example, the dark path. Suppose, if the game was any good, that you could join the Sith, and that would affect the entire gameplay without changing the main story one bit.

But alas, If you see the RPG like some "well-defined" "Fallout-like" game - I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion.
As you wish. There wasn't any point in this discussion to begin with. I was trying to educate you and maybe introduce a grain of doubt so you may think of your position and see numerious flaws. Unfortunately, thinking isn't one of your strongest sides. I'm very sorry.

I see one and only limitation the term RPG implies: you should play a "role" in the game. That's it.
Shouldn't that lead you to other questions, like how I'm going to play it? How this character would be different gameplay-wise from that one? What mechancs would accomplish that? etc. Then you'd realize why the RPG genre is the most difficult and complex of all.

So if the adventure games have better stories - try to make RPG stories at least not worse. If the combat in some games is far more interesting - make it interesting in your game. Don't comfort yourself with lame excuses.
It's not lame excuses, it's something that you're lacking: understanding of the genre.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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psorcerer said:
Role-Player said:
Er, no. You're actualing using the game's rules to determine how to achieve success in the element you're testing.

And how's that, if you don't have hints or clues about their existence?

That's why its called trial and error. You're not breaking any game rules if the game allows you to do this.
 

Azael

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Vault Dweller said:
[
Why? Can you show me where you absolutely positively have to shoot somebody in the face with extreme prejudice? Besides, being a pacifist has nothing to do with a peaceful path, you don't have to be opposed to violence, you may just suck at it. :wink:

You could, theoretically, go through the game without pointing a gun at anyone, but there's no way to finish the game without causing the death of a number of individuals. Sure, they probably all had it coming, but even people deserving to die are off limits for pacifists. Would you call Dubya a pacifist just because he hasn't killed anyone up and personal (that we know of)? ;)
 

psorcerer

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Vault Dweller said:
And that is a proof that morons are unable to play games that don't feature "moron indicators"(tm). It's a reference to one of our previous discussions, psorcerer, don't take it personally.

I thought that X-Ray was not built into rocket scientists like you.
Or are you trying to tell me that you have inborn ability to know any cRPG game rules?
Or are you playing only Fallout and Arcanum because in these ones you know what to do and you simply don't understand other games?
Judging from your words it seems to me that you even remotely don't understand that every game designer puts a lot of clues in his/her games but in "good" designs you think of yourself as a smart guy and in "bad" - you think they try to make you moron.
But on the global scale (which you don't see anyway) there is no way to deside which design is "good" and which is "bad". Something that's good for you seem total lameness to me and right now it's the case.

You see, your arguments are so confusing and contradicting, that even you got lost and couldn't figure what the hell you were talking about. :lol:

Nope, I just figured out that you access RPGs not in the same way I do. So if we want to discuss it more it's better to agree on basic terms, like why do you need genres.

Examples? You said that you played it, didn't you? Anyway, I'll give you a hint: Necropolis. If you played the game, you know what I'm talking about. If not, then go play it if you want to use the game as a reference.

It won't go this way. Becuase you see something in Fallout I missed or don't see so please explain yourself.

Anyway, let's take KOTOR again, for example, the dark path. Suppose, if the game was any good, that you could join the Sith, and that would affect the entire gameplay without changing the main story one bit.

So I guessed right you think that story = history, like some global-scale description of game events. And do you say I'm not smart? :D

As you wish. There wasn't any point in this discussion to begin with. I was trying to educate you and maybe introduce a grain of doubt so you may think of your position and see numerious flaws. Unfortunately, thinking isn't one of your strongest sides. I'm very sorry.

Err...there is no flaws in my position, and I do not see flaws in yours also, but I was trying to bring my point of view to your consideration, that's all. I seriously don't think I can change the way you think, but I can give you a different approach which is at least amusing, isn't it? :)

Shouldn't that lead you to other questions, like how I'm going to play it? How this character would be different gameplay-wise from that one? What mechancs would accomplish that? etc. Then you'd realize why the RPG genre is the most difficult and complex of all.

I agree that it's complex, but it doesn't mean that you should reduce this complexity by making more and more borders: don't use this, because they use it in adventures, dont use that, because they use it in shooters and so on.

It's not lame excuses, it's something that you're lacking: understanding of the genre.

I don't like genres at all. If I need to compare two games I use "aspects of gameplay" genres = limitations. And it seems to me that you think of genre like something superior to game when in fact game goes before genre and not after.
 

Sol Invictus

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If we're talking of situations where its all up to the player's intellect, then no help should exist. Like in combat situations. You know your abilities, and what they do. Just execute them as you think is best. If that doesn't work, don't blame the game; blame yourself for not devising a proper attack plan. What, the creature is immune to something? Remove the immunity, or attack with it something which the creature is not immune to. Simple.

If such a situation were to arise in a game the player should be informed to some degree as to the challenge he is about to face. For instance, a cutscene revealing several NPCs attacking a monster's 'weak spot' might help the player to figure out what he's up against. Even a voiceover from a 'communications device' of some sort from an NPC back at the base (in the case of an FPS) instructing the player on how to kill the monster would be of great help. The best way to do it would probably be to include some sort of in-game manual within the homebase's monster database (assuming it's a game with such a location) with details on how to injure certain monsters, weak points and all that.

A perceptive player would take the trouble to go through the in-game information and use that to his advantage while an idiot would probably have difficulty with those monsters, not having read the data provided to him during the mission briefing. A couple of good games which provided this sort of detailed information were Operation Flashpoint and Rainbow Six 3. They were really helpful to the player but in no way did they hold your hand in the way that some games do, by providing in-game, within-mission support. The way that the information was presented in these couple of games is probably the most ideal way of handling the information aspect of combat.

It's really annoying to play certain games where the monster's immunities (e.g. an immunity to fire) isn't listed anywhere in the game and can only be found out through the use of fire against the monster and the lack of success. This, I think, can prove frustrating because in most cases the player would be forced to reload if the monster was too strong. It might make sense if the monster was a 'magma golem', then the player, within the first couple of shots of the firebolt, would recognise the ineffectiveness of his weapon. On the other hand, if the monster's an 'ice giant', and your stinking fireball doesn't work then something's definitely wrong with the game design.

One of the things I like about Sacred is how your character makes occasional comments on how effective or ineffective his weapons are against the foes he faces. For instance, if he's wielding poison weaponry, he might comment that poison is completely ineffective against the undead. He'll also comment on how his armor isn't equipped to take damage from fire attacks, if he's attacked by a barrage of firebolts. As a player playing the game for the first time you might not know what equipment is best against fire attacks, so this sort of in-game information is really quite helpful.

The only games that can truly get away with not providing detailed information are those penny arcade games like Raiden which rely on dollars worth of retries for you to figure out how to defeat the boss enemies. For what it's worth, those games make a lot of money and it is through trial and error that they manage to do it. For the PC (and arguably some console games), that sort of gameplay will simply prove TOO FRUSTRATING for the gaming experience, which shouldn't always be about trial and error. I'd probably be sick to death of the Rainbow Six games if the only way you could know what to do was to play maps through several times due to 'hidden sniper spots' or something. Thankfully, the Rainbow Six games don't suffer from such design flaws.

I can name one game for the PC which does, though: Soldier of Fortune 2. The only way you could get through most of the maps was if you reloaded hundreds of times due to the abundance of 'hidden snipers' in locations that you wouldn't expect, who were 100% accurate in their shots and the only way to take them out was if you had played through the area before, several times. That game was simply too annoying to play.

It's nice to know that the worries people had about Far Cry possibly suffering from the same issue were quelled with the inclusion of a set of BINOCULARS within the game which help you to detect enemies and aid in creating a set course of action before you proceed into the fray. It's this sort of information that helps to provide a much smoother, more intelligent gaming experience. An intelligent gamer would certainly realize to use all the information (or methods of gaining information) at his disposal in order to ensure his survival, much like a soldier would in real life. It doesn't 'baby' the player, nor does it force you to reload over and over again.

That said, Far Cry is a damn good game.
 

Sol Invictus

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The only way to beat Fallout as a pacifist who doesn't kill everyone is if you have played the game through once (or several times) and know exactly where to go to complete your mission without facing too many foes along the way. It's nowhere possible the first time you play, because evidently you will be forced into combat situations that you can't really get out of, especially if you started a character with average speech skill and weren't counting on too many combat situations.

That said, it IS possible to play as a pacifist who doesn't kill anyone but sooner or later, as Voss put it, you'd be a dead pacifist. I played a pacifist in one of my rounds in Fallout, but I wasn't a "kill nobody" sort of pacifist, I just killed whenever it was necessary and in combats that I couldn't get out of, like those against the Regulators or the super mutants. After all, the pacifist shaolin monks do know how to defend themselves. They just don't seek battle.
 

psorcerer

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Role-Player said:
That's why its called trial and error. You're not breaking any game rules if the game allows you to do this.

Hmm...but you can not break the game rules, you're in preprogrammed computer game after all. My point was that instead of trying to understand the game world by learning the environment you do mindless trials. Mybe they're not mindless from your point of view but they're mindless from the game point if you get "an error".
 

Sol Invictus

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Role-Player said:
psorcerer said:
When you use trial-and-error you're just throwing game world rules away.

Er, no. You're actualing using the game's rules to determine how to achieve success in the element you're testing.

In golf terms, reloading would be considered a mulligan. It's considered cheating and I don't think tournaments even allow them. Bill Clinton plays mulligans a lot, so nobody likes playing with him. It's just cheap, plain and simple. In a computer game, mulligans are typically used to 'get a better result', so to speak - like for the purpose of saving ammunition, or saving your health and armor. It gets really boring after awhile as it wears the game down to the pace of a slow, 50s movie which eventually gets so boring that you stop playing it altogether.

That's one thing. It's another thing when the game forces you to reload over and over because of poor design.
 

psorcerer

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Exitium said:
That said, Far Cry is a damn good game.

[offtopic]It's not that good. And it's kinda sad that it could be much-much better, but they didn't score any A grade in any of the aspects, except some graphic effects maybe.
 

Vault Dweller

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Azael said:
Vault Dweller said:
Why? Can you show me where you absolutely positively have to shoot somebody in the face with extreme prejudice? Besides, being a pacifist has nothing to do with a peaceful path, you don't have to be opposed to violence, you may just suck at it. :wink:

You could, theoretically, go through the game without pointing a gun at anyone, but there's no way to finish the game without causing the death of a number of individuals. Sure, they probably all had it coming, but even people deserving to die are off limits for pacifists. Would you call Dubya a pacifist just because he hasn't killed anyone up and personal (that we know of)? ;)
I never said that you can play as a pacifist, just as a guy who doesn't fight (directly). In my quoted post above, I even explained that.
 

Elwro

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Volourn said:
Problem is everytime I knocked him out he'd be hostile towards me forever and I'd always be in combat mode on that screen.
I had the same problem. And I couldn't even try to persuade him to stay out of the brothel - there was no such a dialogue option.
 

Anonymous

Guest
I'm still puzzled, how was Fallout's story bad?

The thing about Fallout, was the story wasnt handed to you (like you're probably used to), you made it yourself. If you even bothered to finish the game, you'd know this from the ending slides.

It's sorta like this

Need to get water chip->Do whatever you want, with your prize eye on the chip, do different things in the towns, etc. etc -> Get chip and return it, hear about the mutants. Destroy the mutant base and the master-> same as before, do whatever. Lots of stuff you dont even have to do, but you can like the Brotherhood->Blown up the base and the Master is destroyed-> Ending and outcome of all that you have done so far.

Probably hard for you to accept, but yes, in Fallout you made your own story.

I can clearly say, psocerer, that you are probably the stupidest person i've met on this board so far. Volourn, I apologize for all my previous comments, this guy takes the cake.
 

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