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Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

NotTale

Learned
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
139
Why would laser weapons be weak against organic materials?:?
I'm not sure about the carbon chemistry angle, but lots of creatures have high water content. And water is a fantastic heat sink. I'm sure the rapid heating will nontheless do damage, but your energy expenditure is going to be higher than a bullet.
 

dunno lah

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
1,388
Location
Boleh!land
So, lasers aren't necessarily weaker than moving projectiles, but it is much less feasible and thus unnecessary as a mass-produced firearm?
 

I_am_Ian

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
507
Location
The United States of America
Remember that Fargo used actual science-y people to help design concepts in this game so perhaps this whole idea that energy weapons may be less effective against organic matter is rooted in science.
 

imweasel

Guest
That still doesn't really explain why energy weapons (probably laser cannons) are strong against any organic lifeform wearing metal armor, but weak when any organic lifeform is not wearing metal armor.

But maybe the energy weapons are some kind of cannons that emit electromagnetic radiation. The electromagnetic radiation is absorbed by metal, in turn injuring the the lifeform by converting this energy into heat energy (= ball toaster). This electromagnetic radiation largely just passes through organic materials (non-resonant).

This is indeed possible and would not violate the laws of physics. But fuck do I know what they are up to. Let's just give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for the beta.
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
23,731
Why would laser weapons be weak against organic materials?:?

Because kinetic weapons are just better...


The story is set in some high-tech and/or futuristic society. There are massive computer networks, sentient robots, and ships that can zip across space with the same amount of effort it takes you to go to the store down the street. Despite all this technology, however, combat isn't all that different. Battle armor may have some gizmos on it, the guns may have higher muzzle velocities and an ammo count greater than the population of several rural communities, war vehicles may be able to do some fancy new tricks, but combat is the same at heart, bullets and shells still rule the battlefield.
If there are energy weapons in the universe, they either are experimental and wracked with issues like overheating and unwanted by-products, or they're horribly disadvantaged with few available shots before a recharge or a new power pack is required. They will often also be the first type of weapon to go wrong; the more complex parts a weapon has the more likely it is to break. The reason for favouring projectiles in fiction is Rule Of Cool — while subjecting stuff to melting or explosive evaporation is cool, broken pieces of the same stuff flying away with a boom may be even better than the mediocre zap of a laser. This does of course have its roots in the fact that Reality Is Unrealistic: serious laser weaponry actually uses short duration pulses with incredibly high energies that would simply explode an object into plasma the same as if it were hit by a high-velocity projectile... but audiences still expect to see Laser Cutters, so we're stuck with them. There are also real world scientific reasons for using projectiles instead of energy weapons, especially against shielded ships. In defending against lasers, the in-universe shields may be extremely effective at re-radiating heat back into space. To stop a projectile, the shield has to decelerate it, and any force applied to the projectile is in turn applied to the shield generator. Mike Wong of Stardestroyer.net does a good job explaining how the strength of even the strongest shield can come down to how well it's attached to the superstructure of the ship. Sometimes kinetic weapons themselves don't appear to have advanced, either. Future weapons won't necessarily ''look'' more "advanced" or really be that different from modern ones: whether rounds are fired from a modern rifle or a space railgun, it still functions the same. Precise guides held by a solid external structure are still required to accelerate the projectile. Compare Rock Beats Laser, Boring, but Practical, Modern Stasis and Break Out The Museum Piece. Usually goes hand in hand with Our Weapons Will Be Boxy In The Future. Contrast We Will Use Lasers In The Future, where energy weapons are more prevalent than kinetic weapons.



AKA: sometimes simple brute force is all you need.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,505
Location
The border of the imaginary
organics wearing Metal Armor might be weaker to laser weapons because unlike water being an awesome heat sink and mitigating a lot of potential damage from laser weapons, the armor gets heated up and makes the sucker wearing it feel the burn.
Energy Weapons should give bonus DoT to metal wearing organics, whereas causing huge outright damage to robots. Part Metal / Part Organic Cyborgs should be somewhere in between. Bonus damage+DoT.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Didn't Stargate SG1 do something like this? The staff weapons caused some guy to cook inside his armor, and they had to invent ceramic inserts to resist the heat?

but really I don't care. It's not like nuclear radiation leads to giant plants or supaflies.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
I kinda think they necessitate arbitrary gating mechanisms.
[...]
I personally like the idea of skills that are available from the very beginning, but not necessarily usable, more.

If you can't use a skill from the early stages, then it means the content is at least somewhat gated anyway.

It is. My point was that it's better to gate the content than the character progression. If only because content gating can be "soft" in well-designed games, so enterprising players can get around it, which in my opinion is a good thing. In essence, I think the possibility of speed runs in Fallout is a very cool feature, a sign of robust and thorough design.
Resourceful players should be rewarded, that's true, but I don't value highly that which results from gaining the meta-knowledge of the game.

Of course, Sawyer wouldn't see it as such. God forbid players play the game in ways He hadn't envisioned. :smug:
New Vegas certainly says otherwise.

I don't find able to circumvent soft content gates through meta-knowledge (as you do in Fallout/Fallout 2 speedruns) valuable in and out of itself. But I do think they're a sign of a well-designed system. If you can complete the game in a way that was definitely not anticipated by the designer, and still have everything make sense within the gameworld, then something went right, I feel.

And sure, you can sequence break in New Vegas, but I thought that was intended? I distinctly remember reading about Sawyer trying to make the game completable even if the player kills everyone he talks to. Which is great, and kudos to Sawyer for accomodating such a playstyle in an industry where everyone else would just make plot-critical NPCs immortal. But that wasn't what I was talking about; I was talking about designing a system with the assumption that somebody will use it successfuly in ways that you haven't anticipated or planned for. Judging from his comments on PE at least, Sawyer doesn't do this.
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
Does the game feature a world map like in Fallout? Or is it going to be separated maps for different chapters/whatever?
I don't find able to circumvent soft content gates through meta-knowledge (as you do in Fallout/Fallout 2 speedruns) valuable in and out of itself. But I do think they're a sign of a well-designed system. If you can complete the game in a way that was definitely not anticipated by the designer, and still have everything make sense within the gameworld, then something went right, I feel.

And sure, you can sequence break in New Vegas, but I thought that was intended? I distinctly remember reading about Sawyer trying to make the game completable even if the player kills everyone he talks to. Which is great, and kudos to Sawyer for accomodating such a playstyle in an industry where everyone else would just make plot-critical NPCs immortal. But that wasn't what I was talking about; I was talking about designing a system with the assumption that somebody will use it successfuly in ways that you haven't anticipated or planned for. Judging from his comments on PE at least, Sawyer doesn't do this.

Being able to kill everyone and still have a robust and complete story is a pretty good achievement of openness in design, which NV manages rather admirably. Regardless, PE's design direction is as such because it's combat oriented, or as VD would say, not-full-scale RPG. So I wouldn't take Sawyer's design policy for PE as his only policy.
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
That's nice, I was a bit worried that the whole behaving non-ranger like thing may mean the world may not be open.
 

AstroZombie

Arcane
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Messages
1,041
Location
bananolândia
Divinity: Original Sin

So many retards on the comment section, for example:

We made so much money that we’re going to ditch our original idea and make another game instead”.

Am I the only one who’s saddened by the endless stream of Kickstarter “successes” who basically seem to be saying “we were never really very invested in the game we actually *pitched*, so since you guys gave us so much money, we’re going to change it. Oh, and delay it.

What’s wrong with just making the game you described in your Kickstarter pitch?

Well, good for them I guess. Hopefully these changes will turn the game into something they actually *want* to make. I’m just old-fashioned enough to hope that when someone pitches an idea for a game, it is because they’re in love with *that* idea, and that *this* is the game they want to make, and not just something they settled for, but will gladly move away from if given the chance.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
We made so much money that we’re going to ditch our original idea and make another game instead”.

Am I the only one who’s saddened by the endless stream of Kickstarter “successes” who basically seem to be saying “we were never really very invested in the game we actually *pitched*, so since you guys gave us so much money, we’re going to change it. Oh, and delay it.

What’s wrong with just making the game you described in your Kickstarter pitch?

Well, good for them I guess. Hopefully these changes will turn the game into something they actually *want* to make. I’m just old-fashioned enough to hope that when someone pitches an idea for a game, it is because they’re in love with *that* idea, and that *this* is the game they want to make, and not just something they settled for, but will gladly move away from if given the chance.

Morons can't let us have one moment of joy, as we anticipate a non popamole crpg, without giving their moronic "opinion". :roll:

They want to ruin a glimmer of hope we now have. :mad:

Go comment on Bethesda or Bioware games, scum.
 

Monad

Learned
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
192
I don't understand, it's exactly the game they said they'd deliver. What makes it not the game they promised exactly?
 

Volrath

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
4,299
Please don't suck :(
 

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