Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

I think I remember reading one of their design goals was that you couldn't have every skill in the game at a reasonable level with a single party. For better or worse they want content cut off in a single playthrough.

I'm just checking: that isn't a reply to our conversation is it? 'cause we're not talking about that.

 

[Infinitron]

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2997

All non-combat skills will be used more than just a few times in the game, but that doesn't mean that all skills are equal. We wanted to make sure that anything we spent our precious development time on is going to have an impact on the players experience. We do have some obscure skills still and I think we can afford to get away with this more than some other games. Being party based, you have 4-7 individuals in your party. This allows for some experimentation without ruining your characters build. In a game like Fallout, if I focus on the wrong skills, I could easily hurt my gameplay experience since there is only one character.

 

[tuluse]

It says so in the description. Both "are used to activate robots."

It's likely one skill is an upgrade of the previous one. So level 1-5 is one skill name, while 6-10 is another.

It says so in the description. All are used to gain entry. Hell, Brute Force even fucking says it's the same as Demolition, just for free and with less bang.

You didn't read the list, did you?

Different doors will be unable to be opened from each of the skills, and they'll use different attributes. Therefore, not the same skill. Hopefully they came up with some more creative uses and consequence than just opening doors too.

Almost every Fallout fan will criticize Doctor, yet you STILL claim they do it this way as a way to live up to the legacy?

I'm done here man, QED. You seem to have flip-flopped a bit since the Fallout thread. Pressure getting to ya?

The problem with Doctor/First Aid was the lack of content for the skills more than their design.

 

[tuluse]

I'm just checking: that isn't a reply to our conversation is it? 'cause we're not talking about that.

It was in response to "why are there so many skills?", which is a few pages ago now.

 

[Grunker]

Infinitron: I guess that means I owe you a beer, and the Wasteland 2 team a slap in the face and a "fucking hell, you should have listened to Excidium"...

It says so in the description. Both "are used to activate robots."

It's likely one skill is an upgrade of the previous one. So level 1-5 is one skill name, while 6-10 is another.

Then it isn't two skills. It's one skill that gets a different name.

 

[Endemic]

The problem with Doctor/First Aid was the lack of content for the skills more than their design.

Stimpaks were far too abundant as well.

 

[Infinitron]

Infinitron: I guess that means I owe you a beer, and the Wasteland 2 team a "fucking hell, you should have listened to @Excidium"...

Well, I don't know, it depends on your definition of "obscure". Wasteland 2 may end up being so content-dense that even the "obscure" skills will see a lot of use compared to Fallout.

 

[Grunker]

Infinitron: I guess that means I owe you a beer, and the Wasteland 2 team a "fucking hell, you should have listened to @Excidium"...

Well, I don't know, it depends on your definition of "obscure". Wasteland 2 may end up being so content-dense that even the "obscure" skills will see a lot of use compared to Fallout.

You have to really buy into Fargo's hypemachine to believe that.

 

[tuluse]

Then it isn't two skills. It's one skill that gets a different name.

I was simplifying. You could for instance need to be taught the 2nd skill. So it's not available to you until you find it. It could have other requirements for investing in. It could use different attributes. There are ways to differentiate skills even when they have the exact same use (which isn't 100% sure that they do yet either).

 

[Grunker]

Meh, I'm 'sperg-guessing anyway.

 

[Infinitron]

Then it isn't two skills. It's one skill that gets a different name.

I was simplifying. You could for instance need to be taught the 2nd skill. So it's not available to you until you find it. It could have other requirements for investing in. It could use different attributes. There are ways to differentiate skills even when they have the exact same use (which isn't 100% sure that they do yet either).

I'm fairly certain those two skills are more distinct than we realize and they were just described poorly

 

[Excidium]

Grunker Not flip-flopping. I've already explained. I want Wasteland to be Wasteland, and I want PE to be PE. I understand each game's philosophy, and I want them to embody it.

I personally have a preference for the PE/gamist-type philosophy, but I can enjoy both.

Re: Opening skills

On RPS, Crosmando said this:

I disagree about the redundant thing with Brute Force and Demolitions, for one Brute Force is meant to be a skill replacement for using Strength (the attribute) as a skill in the original, you could directly use a characters’ Strength attribute to knock down a door for example. They wanted to preserve this, so they just made it a skill, Brute Force, which is checked with Strength.

Demolitions on the other hand will probably check another attribute like Intelligence. So the purpose is probably so the player can make a dumb brute who kicks down doors, or a smart engineer who blows them up.

Also, blowing shit up makes noise, which might have side effects. Picking locks doesn't. Bashing something down is somewhere in the middle. Remember, this is a game about reactivity.

These skills are fair choice. Noise vs Time. Different resources. Except for bashing being an obviously dumb "skill".

The problem I have is with skills that are basically limited, specialized uses of other skills or things that should be attribute checks instead. Synth tech, Safecrack, Evasion, Brute Force, Alarm Disarm, etc

Remember, this is a game about reactivity.

In decent systems reactivity is mostly handled by your ability in performing the task instead of merely having a different trait for every application. Baby steps I guess.

Perception has the class A annoyance of never-used Search modes in RPGs: you either walk around with it on constantly (and thus play slow as fuck) or you never use it.

Oh, give me a break.

Well it's a fair point to make. In pnp you roll once, the GM tell you what you see (or not). Done. If you waste time it's abstracted time. In CRPG you walk very slowly (or pixel hunt in the worst cases, fucking BG1).

 

[tuluse]

The attribute use as skill is a gamist thing they've done. The only way to interact with the world is through skills.

In a way it's a simple way of controlling scope of interaction while maintaining consistency. Why can't I do x? Is answered with there was no skill for it.

 

[Brother None]

The game does have STR, but you can't "use" it. I believe that the Brute Force "skill" is simply a reflection of a character's Strength score. Brother None, do you know if Brute Force will be upgradable as a skill at all?

You can upgrade the skill but it is tied very closely to strength.

Like Chris said in the post Infinitron quoted, it's a big difference between a single character with active skills (like Fallout) or a whole party with active skills. That's maybe a bit hard to get from just looking at a list of skills. We plan to talk more about skills later anyway, and no doubt feedback on the list during the beta will be very useful. But anyway, we do want to talk about skills more in-depth later.

 

[Excidium]

The attribute use as skill is a gamist thing they've done. The only way to interact with the world is through skills.

In a way it's a simple way of controlling scope of interaction while maintaining consistency. Why can't I do x? Is answered with there was no skill for it.

This is so incredibly retarded I can only hope it's not the case.

The point of attributes is to represent the base abilities of a person and of skills is to represent specialized applications of said abilities

It's like those things are being used just because it's convention to have attributes and skills

 

[Monad]

The attribute use as skill is a gamist thing they've done. The only way to interact with the world is through skills.

In a way it's a simple way of controlling scope of interaction while maintaining consistency. Why can't I do x? Is answered with there was no skill for it.

Why can't I open this door? Well the developers didn't put anything there it's just a prop. This is what people wanted in regards to skills isn't it?

 

[Infinitron]

Excidium It is the case. Game ruined, demand your money back

 

[Excidium]

I didn't pre-order if that's what you mean. I buy products not promises.

 

[Shadenuat]

It says so in the description. Both "are used to activate robots."

One is for using computers, the other is for robots specifically, that's what is says.

All are used to gain entry.

And all weapons are used to kill people, so? Different lock types and entry allow more complex levels which different rangers parties will go through in their own way.

Animal Empathy is a class-specific Druid-ability, freely given, which isn't a skill and thus doesn't compete with other skills for skill points

Unlike Animal Handling or what it's called which is a regular skill and checks CHA. How is that not a useful skill, in a world which is supposed to have very rich bestiary?

I want to speak with a giant crab in a phone booth

Brother None

Will skills have synergy between them (like in AoD)? If half of points from picklock will also go into safecracking, skill "bloat" would be less of a problem.

 

[Grunker]

I didn't pre-order if that's what you mean. I buy products not promises.

No you don't. Without Kickstarter there would be no product. Unless you're aching for some of that DA3 action.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Can we really just move past the idea that character systems exist in a vacuum? Grunker, I really would've expected better from you, as an active PnP player. Whether a skill is superfluous depends on the content; Fallout's Doctor, for instance, isn't intrinsically flawed, the game simply didn't have the content to make it useful. Similarly, the difference between Computer Tech and Synth Tech might be very noticable, depending on how many robots and computers (which can actually govern things other than robots, shockingly enough) the game actually contains, and in what scenarios.

Honestly, I dread to think what you people would've said if someone tried to make a cRPG based on Call of Cthulhu PnP, which has like 15 skills for various academic disciplines. I can already imagine posts demanding those "superfluous" skills to be merged into a single Science skill.

 

[Grunker]

Honestly, I dread to think what you people would've said if someone tried to make a cRPG based on Call of Cthulhu PnP

Call of Cthulhu has one of the worst P&P systems, mechanically speaking, so that's a pretty bad example. It uses percentile die rolls without really having a reason to do so (I.e., it's an arbitrary choice) and during play skills are often either precisely superflous or constantly employed.

I've used GURPS, the WoD-system or simply just played systemless pretty much since forever when playing CoC because the system is so sub-par.

Can we really just move past the idea that character systems exist in a vacuum? Grunker, I really would've expected better from you, as an active PnP player. Whether a skill is superfluous depends on the content; Fallout's Doctor, for instance, isn't intrinsically flawed, the game simply didn't have the content to make it useful. Similarly, the difference between Computer Tech and Synth Tech might be very noticable, depending on how many robots and computers (which can actually govern things other than robots, shockingly enough) the game actually contains, and in what scenarios.

You might have missed the part where I said I was 'sperg-guessing. Can't comment on context since I don't know it, and neither can you.

 

[Excidium]

I didn't pre-order if that's what you mean. I buy products not promises.

No you don't. Without Kickstarter there would be no product. Unless you're aching for some of that DA3 action.

That's p. irrelevant. The product will still exist with or without me.

Honestly, I dread to think what you people would've said if someone tried to make a cRPG based on Call of Cthulhu PnP

Call of Cthulhu has one of the worst P&P systems, mechanically speaking, so that's a pretty bad example.

At least it isn't Call of Cthulhu d20.

I don't think CoC is that bad, it "werks" for the kind of game it is.

 

[Grunker]

At least it isn't Call of Cthulhu d20.

True.

I don't think CoC is that bad, it "werks" for the kind of game it is.

Systemless, WoD or GURPS all work better for the purpose depending on what kind of game you want. Hell, I imagine even Savage Worlds would be a better fit than the core CoC system.

When you say "werks", it's true. Any system does for anything. Most systems can be fun to toy around with.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Honestly, I dread to think what you people would've said if someone tried to make a cRPG based on Call of Cthulhu PnP

Call of Cthulhu has one of the worst P&P systems, mechanically speaking, so that's a pretty bad example. It uses percentile die rolls without really having a reason to do so (I.e., it's an arbitrary choice) and during play skills are often either precisely superflous or constantly employed.

I've used GURPS, the WoD-system or simply just played systemless pretty much since forever when playing CoC because the system is so sub-par.

That's nice, but completely irrelevant to what I said. So, do you think merging all the academic skills into a single Science skill would be a good idea in a CoC campaign?