Which is your opinion about Trial and error in videogames?

[DraQ]

There were a few things during ruins escape that verged on meta but they were still avoidable without no prior information.

Yes, I think in ruins escape there was a falling rock that, quite counterintuitively, can only be avoided by flying up to the cave ceiling and hiding in a hole. That obviously required some meta info (getting smashed by the rock a few times) in order to realize. It didn't feel that bad, maybe because the level itself wasn't as hard as the rest

More like meta info like "this looks like hidey hole, better keep close to it in case something comes falling down", you know, a bit like "this is a huge stash of ammo and medkits, I bet there is a boss fight around this corner", but I think you might be able to still narrowly make it with just lightning reflexes once the rocks do start falling down, and keeping track of potential debris shelters while trying to escape collapsing ruins is not exactly derpy vidyagame logic.

There was also one charming object permanence/brick joke one that could be decried as bullshit by sufficiently... "modern" player - with rock popping up like a champagne cork, then crashing back down soon afterwards (seemingly out of nowhere to a sufficiently derpy individual).

 

[Citizen]

More like meta info like "this looks like hidey hole, better keep close to it in case something comes falling down", you know, a bit like "this is a huge stash of ammo and medkits, I bet there is a boss fight around this corner", but I think you might be able to still narrowly make it with just lightning reflexes once the rocks do start falling down, and keeping track of potential debris shelters while trying to escape collapsing ruins is not exactly derpy vidyagame logic.

There was also one charming object permanence/brick joke one that could be decried as bullshit by sufficiently... "modern" player - with rock popping up like a champagne cork, then crashing back down soon afterwards (seemingly out of nowhere to a sufficiently derpy individual).

No, the hole is really easy to miss if you don't specifically search for it. I doubt many people realised it was there before they got smashed by the falling rock and started to search for solutions (or managed to react on the first try without knowing the rock's timing)

I'm talking about the moment around 1:34

 

[DraQ]

No, the hole is really easy to miss if you don't specifically search for it. I doubt many people realised it was there before they got smashed by the falling rock and started to search for solutions (or managed to react on the first try without knowing the rock's timing)

I'm talking about the moment around 1:34

It's not a valid excuse to miss it. You are supposed to parse your environment quickly, rapidly finding and executing valid solutions to changing circumstances.

The devs even made the rocks catch up on their surroundings to briefly telegraph what is about to happen and give player those few extra split seconds needed.
That's exactly what I mean by avoiding trial and error.

Sure, normal player will probably get clobbered a few times, but theoretically a perfect player wouldn't need to be psychic or have prior knowledge of the game to not die for the entire playthrough.
And that's the mark of some really game design.

 

[Citizen]

Sure, normal player will probably get clobbered a few times, but theoretically a perfect player wouldn't need to be psychic or have prior knowledge of the game to not die for the entire playthrough.
And that's the mark of some really game design.

I got Ori flattened by the rock 4 times before I figured it out

 

[Falksi]

Trial & error has it's place, but it shouldn't be cheap and the player should always have the chance to succeed if he plays well enough. The bullshit examples are when something shoots or appears from off screen and the only way you can avoid it is if you know it's coming. There should always be a chance to stay alive.

I really don't like one shot mechanics though. Especially if you then have to spend a significant amount of time making your way back to that opponent like in some of the souls type games. It kills any real sense of tit-for-tat and becomes tedious quickly.

 

[DraQ]

Sure, normal player will probably get clobbered a few times, but theoretically a perfect player wouldn't need to be psychic or have prior knowledge of the game to not die for the entire playthrough.
And that's the mark of some really game design.

I got Ori flattened by the rock 4 times before I figured it out

Watch this sequence closely. Notice how the rocks first become loose before they start falling down. That's the game telling you what will happen. And you actually have just enough time to make it to the hidey-hole before you get a faceful of collapsing ceiling.
Rocks start shaking at 1:39 mark, but they don't pass in front of hidey-hole before 1:41. That's whole 2s to make it to shelter. Moreso, the game actually drops rightmost rock in advance so that naturally dodging it brings you closer to the shelter.

A mark of a good game is that when player (a proper one, not some yolo pleb) gets clobbered they think "gah! I'm such a fucktard!" rather than "this is bullshit!".
Mind you, I've had >1k opportunities on my initial playthrough to savour the difference between the two.

 

[Nito]

I think it depends if trial and error promotes interesting decision making. Games are a series of interesting choices. If all trial and error results in is brute-forcing a solution because the player isn't given enough information, then it's negative. If however, trial and error encourages creativity, then I think that's a positive.

An example I always think of when someone mentions trial and error, is the stealth-strategy game, Commandos and a spiritual successor, Shadow Tactice. The first game is very much a trial and error game, where getting caught very much encourages a quick reload, and attempting to "solve" each stealth puzzle with the tools you're given can be a case of just trying different things in combination till it works. Finding that right combination is where the fun comes from. Shadow Tactics took this further but essentially making quicksaving/loading a mechanic and then making it easier to combine those tools. Essentially, failure became part of the intended gameplay loop. Hotline Miami's hazy, constant, cycle of sudden death but quick rebirth is another example.

So I think it's something that can be a positive aspect of a game, if it's something you design around, as opposed to just throwing barriers up in the player's face and then expecting them to bash their skull against it.