Why do people like low magic so much?

[deuxhero]

Doesn't it make the world more "mundane"? What are the benifits to it.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Because it makes magic something more serious and mysterious, and spellcasters in low magic settings are usually a lot more than just 'your friendly neighbourhood fireballthrowers'.

 

[Martin]

A matter of taste mostly.

Or perhaps its easier to have effective suspension of disbelief on the part the player.

Still I dont see why a "low magic" setting has to be less interesting or more mundane than a "high magic" setting. Look at the classical fantasy works from Tolkien or George R.R. Martin, they built rich, well developed and detailed worlds and yet lord of the rings and a song of ice and fire can be considered low magic settings. Of course books and PC rpgs have different appeals but I think its a decent comparison.

 

[NOVD]

Low magic is I think a bit safer. It's easy to turn a high-magic setting into something very cheesy. With a low magic setting, you make Medieval Europe with some spellcasters here and there. There's more of a blueprint as to how make the setting. And so people go "wrong" less often. Beyond that, it's not like a well done high-magic setting is necessarily any better than a well done low-magic setting.

Though, maybe it's not safer in terms of games selling well.

 

[deuxhero]

Yeah, but everything Tolkien has done has been copied to mundanity.

 

[The_Pope]

I've never seen a high fantasy setting that made the slightest amount of sense. There isn't even the slightest suggestion that the world would have been a little different if a witch could fry an army of templars without the slightest difficulty.

 

[deuxhero]

Eberron?

 

[Serious_Business]

Magic is lame in fiction 95% of the time.

Most of the time it's some accessory bullshit that has no theme, no depth, nothing to it. It's just there to be fantastic, which is great if you're 8 years old or a faggot but yeah. Magic is also used copiously to supplement bad writing, it explains shit that would be better written up as moral or psychological issues. It's definitively a sign of immaturity most of the time. Also, as said most of the time it introduces stupid contradictions, not only in the plot but also in how people would see the world in general.

The most interesting setting is history, I really don't get why writers insist in making up shit all the time

 

[Kaucukovnik]

High value is tied to low quantity and magic is something that should feel rare and valuable. It's like visual effects in first Matrix movie compared to sequels in my eyes. The first one had the least of them, but they were the most impressive, because they were something special, unusual. Similar for Alien franchise - the more of the creatures is seen on screen, the less terrifying they become, and therefore the first Alien is the most frightening of them all. Sometimes less is more.

Some games really take magic and magic equipment beyond absurd. In Diablo, non-magical items are completely worthless and any beginning spellcaster can fry dozens of enemies in no time. The world is filled with magic, but no one except the player seems to benefit from this, and simple folks eat dust.

And there is the deus-ex-machina thing - in sci-fi anything can be explained by technology, fantasy has all-powerful magic. The best explanation of all time? "A mad wizard did it."

Most high-magic settings look like superhero comics to me.

 

[laclongquan]

Yeah, high magic is cheap, easy to devise, and even easier to implement. About the only thing going for it is the total control of authors. Low magic is based on quite a few historical precedents and lots of tales so they are very hard to do it "originally" or "well". A low magic story can be compared to dozens of tales, ranging from children stories to ancient legends, so it's easy to be critizied.

So? low magic need to be done very well before it can be accepted by readers. therefore why we love it.

 

[J1M]

We need more zero magic settings imo.

 

[laclongquan]

A magic-depleted world would make an excellent fantasy post apocalytic setting.

 

[Redeye]

A magic-depleted world would make an excellent fantasy post apocalytic setting.

Why yes, here you go

Scroll down for the better parts.

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

i really liked the way magic was handled in the Lord of the Isles series by David Drake. while the series has its faults, the magic system is not one of them. i do not know if it is a low or high magic setting per se... the deal is that magic is plentiful, but really shouldn't be messed with. there are lots of magic users, but they are usually in high positions (nobles, rules, etc) and are generally feared and hated. it is easy to have lots of magical power assuming you have the natural talent/resources, but controlling that power is incredibly difficult, even for the most talented. this leads to things like accidentally sinking entire land masses weeks after casting a major spell because the caster couldn't quite see all the threads of power, even though he could use them.

another instance, a guy gets drunk and tries to prove to another guy that he's the superior magician by performing an illusion. however, he fucks it up because he is wasted and not as skilled as he believes. the consequence? he loses his legs in an interdimensial portal to a demonic plane. his legs still exist, and he can feel them (being gnawed on by demons) but in the human plane, he has no legs. consequently, he spends all his moments blazed out of his mind.

cliffs:
setting where using magic has consequences
magic is extremely dangerous, even for skilled users
powerful, "easy," difficult to control / foresee consequences of magical actions
magic users are generally stygmatized / feared
requires words of power (spell phrases, verses, etc) + usually something to assist the incantation like a bone of a demon, blood, etc. powerful items multiply the force the user can apply, like levers, but the more powerful an item the more dangerous it becomes. safe items are less powerful but if used cleverly can do incredibly things (similar to a small lever in the right place can set off an avalanche)
words of power are difficult to speak / tiring

contrast this with the typical way just about every other setting handles magic (i think of it as "just do it" magic).

 

[laclongquan]

Both Niven and Drake create too dry characters. They lack the power to draw readers in. Lord of the Isles I lost interest in vol 4. Simply dont want to read any more.

Actually, I wrote that as a serious, matter-of-fact, counter to the ambiguously statement of J1M. I dont know if he's sarcastic or not, see.

 

[J1M]

i really liked the way magic was handled in the Lord of the Isles series by David Drake. while the series has its faults, the magic system is not one of them. i do not know if it is a low or high magic setting per se... the deal is that magic is plentiful, but really shouldn't be messed with. there are lots of magic users, but they are usually in high positions (nobles, rules, etc) and are generally feared and hated. it is easy to have lots of magical power assuming you have the natural talent/resources, but controlling that power is incredibly difficult, even for the most talented. this leads to things like accidentally sinking entire land masses weeks after casting a major spell because the caster couldn't quite see all the threads of power, even though he could use them.

another instance, a guy gets drunk and tries to prove to another guy that he's the superior magician by performing an illusion. however, he fucks it up because he is wasted and not as skilled as he believes. the consequence? he loses his legs in an interdimensial portal to a demonic plane. his legs still exist, and he can feel them (being gnawed on by demons) but in the human plane, he has no legs. consequently, he spends all his moments blazed out of his mind.

cliffs:
setting where using magic has consequences
magic is extremely dangerous, even for skilled users
powerful, "easy," difficult to control / foresee consequences of magical actions
magic users are generally stygmatized / feared
requires words of power (spell phrases, verses, etc) + usually something to assist the incantation like a bone of a demon, blood, etc. powerful items multiply the force the user can apply, like levers, but the more powerful an item the more dangerous it becomes. safe items are less powerful but if used cleverly can do incredibly things (similar to a small lever in the right place can set off an avalanche)
words of power are difficult to speak / tiring

contrast this with the typical way just about every other setting handles magic (i think of it as "just do it" magic).

Sounds like everything wrong with magic-heavy settings codified into the lore. "Oh I need a deus ex machina here, but we don't have a mage around, oh well no worries, someone cast a spell here a while ago and a CRAZY SIDE EFFECT (TM) is going to happen!"

 

[J1M]

Both Niven and Drake create too dry characters. They lack the power to draw readers in. Lord of the Isles I lost interest in vol 4. Simply dont want to read any more.

Actually, I wrote that as a serious, matter-of-fact, counter to the ambiguously statement of J1M. I dont know if he's sarcastic or not, see.

I was not being sarcastic. There is plenty of intrigue to be had with just human interactions, but when you also add different races and cultures into the mix magic often ends up as a crutch for creating and solving the plot.

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

its not really deus ex machina. i seem to have given you an incorrect impression. stuff doesn't happen for no apparent reason*. where acts of magic have occurred lots of power is gathered, so even a small spell in these areas can have big (dare i say, unforeseen?) consequences. these places are generally pretty obvious (demonic altars, temples, portals, shrines, tombs of powerful persons, etc) but a lot of the time people are distracted by the amount of power available and get greedy/careless. if there is no mage around, the magical forces in the world will not become manifest. like i said, the books have their faults (laclong pointed out a few - im not really interested in discussing the books, however), but i liked the idea of magic being something only arrogant/insane people practice and most people abhor and want absolutely nothing to do with.

where i would have gone with the base idea is a low magic setting by natural selection. most people that can use magic end up killing themselves accidentally or causing major catastrophes, and are thus feared, hunted, and despised. magic users would kind of be like anarch outcasts and few in number (and probably short lived as well). smart mages would probably only have very small amounts of power (more likely to survive their mistakes) and try to keep a really low profile (and probably be a minority within a minority). then you could have all sorts of cultural oddities and customs designed to find and remove those with magical power (with an understandable logic behind the whole thing).

and dont get me started on races. its always annoys me when humans (or any other races of significant size) are portrayed as simply unified without any explanation (i.e. an antlike culture might be unified or one linked telepathically, just have some explanation, please).

* I see now where you got the impression that stuff randomly happens. The explanation was the powerful mage destroyed an entire naval fleet by sinking the ocean floor beneath it. However, this was done somewhat near the island the mage was attempting to defend, and he underestimated the effects of sinking the floor of the ocean (obviously a dangerous proposition) in addition to not being entirely in control of the forces he manipulated. it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that removing a large chunk of the ocean floor near an island would have side effects leading up to the island sinking a little while (a couple days i think, i dont quite remember) later, especially if more of the ocean floor was altered than originally anticipated.

the problem i have with high fantasy is it typically makes magic boring and uninteresting.

 

[J1M]

its not really deus ex machina. i seem to have given you an incorrect impression. stuff doesn't happen for no apparent reason*. where acts of magic have occurred lots of power is gathered, so even a small spell in these areas can have big (dare i say, unforeseen?) consequences. these places are generally pretty obvious (demonic altars, temples, portals, shrines, tombs of powerful persons, etc) but a lot of the time people are distracted by the amount of power available and get greedy/careless. if there is no mage around, the magical forces in the world will not become manifest. like i said, the books have their faults (laclong pointed out a few - im not really interested in discussing the books, however), but i liked the idea of magic being something only arrogant/insane people practice and most people abhor and want absolutely nothing to do with.

where i would have gone with the base idea is a low magic setting by natural selection. most people that can use magic end up killing themselves accidentally or causing major catastrophes, and are thus feared, hunted, and despised. magic users would kind of be like anarch outcasts and few in number (and probably short lived as well). smart mages would probably only have very small amounts of power (more likely to survive their mistakes) and try to keep a really low profile (and probably be a minority within a minority). then you could have all sorts of cultural oddities and customs designed to find and remove those with magical power (with an understandable logic behind the whole thing).

and dont get me started on races. its always annoys me when humans (or any other races of significant size) are portrayed as simply unified without any explanation (i.e. an antlike culture might be unified or one linked telepathically, just have some explanation, please).

* I see now where you got the impression that stuff randomly happens. The explanation was the powerful mage destroyed an entire naval fleet by sinking the ocean floor beneath it. However, this was done somewhat near the island the mage was attempting to defend, and he underestimated the effects of sinking the floor of the ocean (obviously a dangerous proposition) in addition to not being entirely in control of the forces he manipulated. it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that removing a large chunk of the ocean floor near an island would have side effects leading up to the island sinking a little while (a couple days i think, i dont quite remember) later, especially if more of the ocean floor was altered than originally anticipated.

the problem i have with high fantasy is it typically makes magic boring and uninteresting.

Your clarification doesn't change my opinions on the setting at all.

Why would someone bother to hire and build an entire navy? For the cost it would be much easier to buy out a mage.

The ramifications of that level of magic do not seem to be considered at all.

PS: Why does the island fall into the seabed hole? The seabed fell into solid rock so clearly physics doesn't apply.

 

[DraQ]

Because it's easier to avoid having world breaking apart if you prevent everyone and their grandma from wielding energies of universal unraveling.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

I like Warhammer magic, where every time you cast something there's a chance you'll be sucked to hell or something else horrible like that. Or those alchemy spells where you transform your body parts to superior gold ones (permanently), transforming your heart to gold means that you no longer feel emotional pain, and failing the spell means you die.

 

[denizsi]

I just had this mental image of a setting where a world on the brink of natural disasters/apocalypse of global scale, threatening all civilized life on earth, is also torn between political and physical conflicts of two peoples: those with innate magical abilities and those without, and the blaming of the former by the latter for the impending doom of all life. Eventually, the magi unite and bring their own "final solution" to end the globalmagicthinkery and rid the world of all regular, non-magical people; let some of them live and sterilize them, devise ways of surviving the new climate of the world and adapt.

In time, they multiply and turn the world into a porn of high fantasy magic, living through a magical renaissance and advancing magical practices to such new and previously unimaginable heights.

Eventually, magic takes such precedence over most things in life, becoming a zeal and a religion, they start declining morally, socially and physically, finally becoming creatures so physically weak, they come to be terrified of any directly physical confrontation or effort, leading their entire lives shrouded in and aided by magic, reaching points of becoming almost ethereal, but still bound to physical bodies, in a decadent society.

Then, at some point, they start to bear babies who show no signs of innate magical abilities. Not all of them, not at once, but steadily more all the time. They are resistant to most if not all forms of magic, but without the tiniest stream of magical energies in their essence.

Initial wave of baby-murders prove fruitless as more "regular" babies, second babies, third babies, are born in a growing trend. Since they've long left all but the most basic devices of the physically applied civilization behind, the newborn grow to be physically weak yet brutish and, unable to communicate properly with their mothers and fathers, they grow violent, mentally and physically. Although the new generation, at first, takes their ascendants for gods, they quickly turn away and start breeding their own in their own image.

The second generation sees a reversal of hundred thousands of years of evolution, reduced to primitive kinship and further devolves it into a state of further chaos: Bloodlust on their greater, celestial ascendants upon witnessing the slaughter of the first generation who were their mothers and fathers.

You are born into this family of manboons. And you must learn to use and improve your primitive abilities to track and hunt down the false gods. That is, until you almost form a thought, resulting in your head hurting so hard, you forget about it all. Herp Derp.

 

[laclongquan]

YAWNS!!!!

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

Why would someone bother to hire and build an entire navy? For the cost it would be much easier to buy out a mage.

Mages are scarce, and not necessarily easy to "buy" either because they're insane and untrustworthy, or are already "players" that don't need to work for anyone and thus can't be bought (unless the buyer is retarded, desperate, whatever). Also, you might build an army because, um, you don't want to accidentally wipe out your country? I dunno. Why do country's still build and maintain expensive armies when they have nukes? There are drawbacks.

The ramifications of that level of magic do not seem to be considered at all.

How so? Most powerful sorcerers die horribly, and the ones that do not are extremely powerful and dangerous and no one messes with them (except demons and other powerful entities). Even the strongest mages often have undesired side effects occur when they perform magic. As a result the populace hate and fear magic, and for good reason. I don't know why I have to go over this again. Magic has ramifications of fucking your shit up in ways that make it mostly not worth using. Of course, in the actual books, this is not the case, but we're discussing the base setting.

PS: Why does the island fall into the seabed hole? The seabed fell into solid rock so clearly physics doesn't apply.

aren't you over analyzing this? why does the seabed have to fall into solid rock? why can't the mage cause an earthquake which in turn causes a tsunami? it's pretty well known that earthquakes have a tendency to create after shocks. alternatively, the mage the could have transported the seabed into another plane, disrupting a section of tectonic plates and setting off a slow reaction that destabilized the island and caused it to sink.

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

YAWNS!!!!

post count +1