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Why do so many people think that OSR = low level only? The average TSR AD&D module is a LV 6 to 9.5 adventure, according to Wikipedia.

scytheavatar

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The appeal of OSR isn't just that it is like AD&D, cause in that case you might as well just run AD&D. The appeal of OSR is that it is easier to run and is more suitable for a bunch of nerds that just want to have fun without a ton of preparation work. And high level campaigns simply require far more work than low level ones.
 

deuxhero

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Weren't most AD&D modules either
A: A requirement for TSR new hires to make
B: Recycled "tournament" material that was never meant to be played seriously and intended to be a contest of how far you can get
? I don't think the majority reflect normal play.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Adventure module S2 White Plume Mountain was based on an adventure submitted by Lawrence Schick to TSR as part of his job application, but I don't know of any other D&D/AD&D modules of this nature, and they certainly weren't being farmed out to the new hires; several talented designers were responsible for a large number of modules over the years (e.g. 18 for Gary Gygax, 14 for David Zeb Cook, 13 for Tracy Hickman, 10 for Frank Mentzer). As for tournament adaptations, they were unfortunately too prevalent in the earliest years of TSR adventure modules, but ultimately accounted for fewer than 30 of the 318 adventures modules produced by TSR for D&D/AD&D from 1978 to 1997.
 

Melan

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A segment of those involved with the "Old School Renaissance" do not look to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons for inspiration but rather to original D&D...

Uhm, bit of a thread derailment, I know, but I've been wondering something, and saw you here - so why not, you are my favorite source of old-school rpg knowledge. Is Tunnels & Trolls just a stupid OD&D derivate, or does it have more to itself?
It is very lightweight and light-hearted, a lot more so than OD&D (which is not rules-heavy by any means). Sort of a beer & pretzels game, where most monsters are represented by a single stat ("Monster Rating") and there are lots of puns in the rule text. It's zany, cartoonish 70s STEM humour, the same kind you find in early computer games. Paradoxically, a lot of late 80s T&T materials, like the Citybooks series, are a good deal more serious than AD&D was at the same time, because the game got colonised by the wannabe novellist/worldbuilder crowd, who liked its rules-light nature. These are good books in their own right, but rather different from the game as originally conceived.

About Tunnels & Trolls, it was butchered like D&D? How is different than D&D? It was butchered by a WoTC style company?
Not quite, but they did take out Yassa Massa, their equivalent of the charm spell. :lol:

Honestly, I'd just grab the PDF of the first edition reprint (there was a physical version, but IDK where you can get that one today). It's a fun look into gaming history. Very rough around the edges, but lovely.
 

Melan

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WRT the original question, the answer lies in the origins of the modern old-school movement. It was mostly driven by people who got badly burned out on the rules-heavy powergaming of 3.x, and wanted something radically different. Old D&D delivers on this experience: it is deadly on the low levels ("hard mode" D&D), emphasises out-of-the-box problem-solving instead of rules mastery, and can be played and run with less autism. The focus on this style of low-level gaming yielded a lot of gold, not just in reconstructing old playstyles, but building on them in an organic way.

However, this framework became limiting when it became a dogma among many, cordoning off a lot of rewarding and complex areas of play - major campaigns with the players growing into powerful movers and shakers; advanced tactics in high-level play; or the kind of module style represented by early TSR, where you get fairly hard challenges, but also have a range of very powerful character abilities and magic items to deal with them. You can add that a lot of people who play "OSR" games for the mudcore experience are small minds who don't get complex gaming. So you get feature-poor games and adventures with very minimal rules, cut content, and things like five-room dungeons or nine-hex wilderness areas. I think the winds have changed in this respect, and some really strong high-level adventures have come out in the last few years.
 

Cryomancer

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It was mostly driven by people who got badly burned out on the rules-heavy powergaming of 3.x, and wanted something radically different. Old D&D delivers on this experience: it is deadly on the low levels ("hard mode" D&D), emphasises out-of-the-box problem-solving instead of rules mastery

Makes sense.

If we compare AD&D with 3.5e, my guess is that the average level play in AD&D was much lower. Hell, if we look into CRPG adaptations (I know that aren't perfect representations of P&P), except by ToEE, every 3.5e/PF1e vydia allowed you to get into high and epic levels; meanwhile, among the dozens of AD&D vydia adaptations, I think that only Pools of Darkness, EotB 3, and BG2 late SoA/ToB were high-level AD&D adaptations. This is among like 30 adaptations...
 

scytheavatar

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https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.com/2021/04/six-cultures-of-play.html

This article is a good explanation for the question:

5) The OSR ("Old School Renaissance / Revival")​

Yes, it's this late in this chronological listing. And yes, the OSR is not "classic" play. It's a romantic reinvention, not an unbroken chain of tradition.

The OSR draws on the challenge-based gameplay from the proto-culture of D&D and combines it with an interest in PC agency, particularly in the form of decision-making. The goal is a game where PC decision-making, especially diegetic decision-making, is the driver of play. I think you can see this in a very pure form in the advice Chris McDowall gives out on his blog for running Into the Odd and Electric Bastionland.

An important note I will make here is to distinguish the progressive challenge-based play of the "classic" culture from the more variable challenge-based play of the OSR. The OSR mostly doesn't care about "fairness" in the context of "game balance" (Gygax did). The variation in player agency across a series of decisions is far more interesting to most OSR players than it is to classic players.

The OSR specifically refuses the authoritative mediation of a pre-existing rules structure in order to encourage diegetic interactions using what S. John Ross would call "ephemeral resources" and "invisible rulebooks", and that the OSR calls "playing the world" and "player skill", respectively. Basically, by not being bound by the rules, you can play with a wider space of resources that contribute to framing differences in PC agency in potentially very precise and finely graded ways, and this allows you to throw a wider variety of challenges at players for them to overcome. I could write an entire post on just what random tables are meant to do, but they tie into the variance in agency and introduce surprise and unpredictability, ensuring that agency does vary over time.

I tend to date the start of the OSR from shortly after the publication of OSRIC (2006), which blew open the ability to use the OGL to republish the mechanics of old, pre-3.x D&D. With this new option, you had people who mainly wanted to revive AD&D 1e as a living game, and people who wanted to use old rule-sets as a springboard for their own creations. 2007 brought Labyrinth Lord, and the avalanche followed thereafter. The early OSR had Grognardia to provide it with a reconstructed vision of the past to position itself as the inheritors of, it had distinct intellectual developments like "Melan diagrams" of dungeons and Chris Kutalik's pointcrawls, and I would say it spent the time between 2006 and roughly 2012 forming its norms into a relatively self-consistent body of ideas about proper play.

Basically:

1) Real classic D&D as intended by Gygax: fair sets of challengers for players to try beating, challengers that get progressively harder.

2) OSR: "a fair fight is a failed state", you are expected to see a lvl 12 dragon as lvl 3 characters. Fights are not supposed to be fair and you are supposed to come up with creative solutions. Either run away or set ambushes.

And it becomes much harder to maintain that state of unfairness when your characters are high level and supposed to be very strong.
 

Old Hans

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my favorite thing about OSR is that it originally started as a "back to the basic D&D" but over time slowly followed the same thought process as original RPG devs, where it starts to be "maybe we can just add a couple skills" next thing you know its Rolemaster
 

Cryomancer

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And it becomes much harder to maintain that state of unfairness when your characters are high level

Well, I said that the average adventure level in modules in AD&D was 7.75, not 17.75. If you can't find a way to challenge a lv 6~9 party, you are an awful DM. One time in 3.5emy hihg level group pissed off a noble really hard and he hired professional assassins. The assassins stalked us and while we where sleeping, used sleep in the guy in "watch", followed by a scroll of anti magical field and started to snipe us with longbows and poisoned arrows. Was brutal, only our druid survived.
 

Kev Inkline

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
An experienced runequest character raughs at your levels, while simultaneously dying, gargling from a critical stab wound inflicted by a regular garden gnome.
 

DavidBVal

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They were produced because people brought modules. This means that they are a perfect representation of how people played back them? No. But is the best metric that we have.

Agreed, but if you accept the premise of most games starting at level 1 and not rolling mid-level characters from the start, then logic dictates the low-level games will be in the majority. For every mid-level game, there has been low-level game before, and too many times games or campaigns start and only last a few sessions before something kills it (external or internal causes).

Certainly in my experience it's the case (both player or DM). For every game that reached mid or high levels, there were many that for some reason didn't.
 

Kev Inkline

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Sounds familiar, this is from RQ 2nd and I think 3rd edition:

tumblr_ot8v06bh6d1ro2bqto1_500.jpg
 

mediocrepoet

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Sounds familiar, this is from RQ 2nd and I think 3rd edition:

tumblr_ot8v06bh6d1ro2bqto1_500.jpg
This is an excerpt from MERP (which is actually the RoleMaster spin off I was most familiar with - no idea what happened to my books though). Surprisingly hard to find this stuff posted online.

MERP Crit fumbles.jpg


Nothing like the chance of being such a tool that you insta-kill yourself. A bunch of those critical hit ones have a good chance of insta-kills on their respective crit charts as well. Or have the chance to be a caster that can't cast for 3 months.
They don't make 'em like they used to! :lol:
 

DavidBVal

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Sounds familiar, this is from RQ 2nd and I think 3rd edition:
This is an excerpt from MERP (which is actually the RoleMaster spin off I was most familiar with - no idea what happened to my books though). Surprisingly hard to find this stuff posted online.

View attachment 55949

Nothing like the chance of being such a tool that you insta-kill yourself. A bunch of those critical hit ones have a good chance of insta-kills on their respective crit charts as well. Or have the chance to be a caster that can't cast for 3 months.
They don't make 'em like they used to! :lol:

Fondly remember those 80-fumbles in MERP. It was great when you rolled an 80 but were spared because of a "bonus", ending in a higher roll but milder effect.

See, that's the typical non-streamlined, completely illogical yet tremendously fun system that I miss in nowadays games.
 

Mortmal

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Sounds familiar, this is from RQ 2nd and I think 3rd edition:
This is an excerpt from MERP (which is actually the RoleMaster spin off I was most familiar with - no idea what happened to my books though). Surprisingly hard to find this stuff posted online.

View attachment 55949

Nothing like the chance of being such a tool that you insta-kill yourself. A bunch of those critical hit ones have a good chance of insta-kills on their respective crit charts as well. Or have the chance to be a caster that can't cast for 3 months.
They don't make 'em like they used to! :lol:

Fondly remember those 80-fumbles in MERP. It was great when you rolled an 80 but were spared because of a "bonus", ending in a higher roll but milder effect.

See, that's the typical non-streamlined, completely illogical yet tremendously fun system that I miss in nowadays games.
What you clearly need to play is DCC. There's a lot of randomness, and wizards will never get the same version of the same spells. It's also completely impossible to replicate in a CRPG.
 

Cryomancer

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impossible to replicate in a CRPG.

IMO the hardest TTRPG to adapt into CRPG is Mage : the Ascension. The way that they handle magic is near impossible to translate into a CRPG. Let me explain. Magic generates a "paradox" and how it happens is very "up to the DM", you can do wathever you want with magic but more magical stuff generate more paradox. For example, if someone points 9mm handgun to your head and press the trigger, if you make the gun jam, you incur little to no paradox as gun jamming happens IRL. Now, if you transform the hangun into a Unicorn, you generate a lot of paradox.

Now, I still want a CRPG adaptation of Lamentations of the Flame princess.

They removed all flashy spells from the game and made magic far more dangerous, you can attempt to summon something and end up creating anti matter causing a massive explosion, can also summon literal shit immune to fire, capable of casting spells and telekynesis and immunity against normal weapons and can open a portal to hell that can destroy a small city.

And made even Elves fells less human. They take 1d8 damage from holy water and are very "fairy like".
 

mediocrepoet

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There are a variety of TTRPG systems that don't really translate into CRPGs.

Amber's diceless system without the interactive storytelling element would be boring af since the system would just compare numbers and tell you you won or lost.

Mage, as mentioned.

Over the Edge not only has you define what you're trying to do in a free form manner but you also define your abilities in the same way in collaboration with the GM.

In contrast, shit like insane crit tables where you can murk yourself or enemies with really high or low rolls and where there are tons of charts and situation modifiers are perfect for CRPGs. But instead of going that route, we got Fetish Simulator 69 and Click the Monsters to Fill Screen with Lights 32. This is the worst timeline.
 

Cryomancer

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Strongly agreed that endless tables and tables and tables of dice rolls can be a chore in P&P but work fine in a CRPG.

Other thing that I forgot to tell about level ranges in OSR. In Lamentations of The Flame Princess, there is ZERO high level adventures for it and most adventures are very low levels. And it makes sense, too much powerful parties would ruin its setting. Shadowdark has a level cap of 10, Hyperborea has a lv cap of 12. Shadowdark also has rules to start as a lv 0 commoner. With no weapon "knowledge", no spell, just like a regular commoner.

One other question. I know nothing about Shadow of the Demon lord. Can it be considered OSR?
 

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