Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Why do you pay for abandonware?

Glop_dweller

Prophet
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
1,167
I'm sure you used absolutely zero public domain inspirations in your work, right?

Oh no, what's that, you benefited from public domain works but you think your own work is simply too important to ever be public domain? Wow, I'm just shocked!
What's yer point?

*And before you make that point, first explicitly refute or disagree with the statements in my post, and please state your reasons.

Is it your opinion that everyone has a right to possess another's work even against that person's (or corporate entity's) will?
 
Last edited:

EtcEtcEtc

Savant
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
404
You need to pay $30 for a 40 year old game to a company full of people who were at best in diapers when the game is made. $0 of that $30 goes to people who actually made the games, because none of them work at the company you're giving the money to. The money will be used to fund games you hate created by people who hate you.
Or else... YOU'RE BREAKING THE LAW!!!!

People will actually defend this.

And if you can provide proof that the money actually goes to the original developers, I'd be more than happy to pay for the games.

This is the best take.

If dudes working at SSI in 98 get a check if I buy People's General, I'll buy the game. I'm not buying the game so the money can go to people who never had a hand in making the game.

I won't deny that it's piracy - considering that at this point it is being sold it means that there is a legal ownership of the license and legally to download it somewhere else is piracy. But ethically, it's absurd to make the argument that anyone is hurt if you don't buy a copy of this game and just play an abandonware copy of it.

As it is, I would have bought People's General three months ago when I was trying to get a working copy without a VM, but then I found a site online where you could download the original campaigns, with bells & whistles and new campaigns added.
 
Last edited:

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,059
The thing about copyright law is that the owners are the only ones who can legally enforce it, so orphaned works are stuck in an annoying legal limbo that copyright law wasn't designed to account for because copyright law wasn't designed to be extended to such absurd lengths by corporate entities completely unrelated to the actual creators of the work. This is not healthy.

Not that this hasn't stopped news media from complaining that the copyright expiring on The Great Gatsby has caused the market to be flooded with inferior prints. That's a shitty reason to lobby for forever copyright.

The thing is, sometimes even if the original creators are still around and still have the rights to the work, they may still be jerks who refuse to let it be sold and preserved for posterity. Brian Herbert refuses to let the Westwood Dune games be sold by GOG while at the same time profiting off his father's legacy and using brand recognition to prop up his shitty fanfiction. The point and click game Scratches is owned by multiple people and some of them are jerks who refuse to let it be sold publicly again unless they receive a ridiculous sum of money to surrender the rights.

And I've seen youtube videos where people argue that copyright should be abolished because they hate a particular creator for having political opinions they don't like but still want to buy and enjoy that creator's work because they're too fucking lazy and entitled to just make their own stuff. There are plenty of IPs I used to love before their owners drove them into the ground, but rather than constantly complain about it without making any difference I decided to just make my own stuff if I couldn't find someone doing the same thing already to patronize. Variety is the spice of life and the media landscape would be supremely boring if we became lazy assholes who just constantly write fanfiction of the same work forever.

Anyway, I can't think of a good solution for this complex and multifaceted issue. We definitely need to reduce copyright lengths, especially on corporate works, but I also don't want to create situations where a creator is still alive when their work suddenly explodes in popularity and they never see a cent of that. Although I suppose trademark law would still work in that case.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
248
I pirate what I want and buy what I want. Keep sucking corporate dick and putting money in the pockets of people working to ruin your life, opinions of corporate dick suckers mean nothing to me.

Edit: Piracy is taken on a case by case basis so the answer to the original question is, "It depends."
 

Blutwurstritter

Learned
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
888
Location
Germany
But what about games where no one even knows who owns the IP? Where's the issue when nobody can lay claim to what has allegedly been stolen? Does that just not matter?

It's basic quantum mechanics.
One can't know the owner before one sells it. By selling it the wave function collapses, producing a shoal of corporate lawyers.
There is little literature on quantum mechanics in the money representation other than the collapse of currency. I wonder if I can get a position funded for the investigation of money annihilation processes due to excited lawyer dynamics induced by IP dumping.
 

Glop_dweller

Prophet
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
1,167
The thing is, sometimes even if the original creators are still around and still have the rights to the work, they may still be jerks who refuse to let it be sold and preserved for posterity.
Why should it be preserved for posterity against their will, if they own it. Posterity has no rights to it, save by their whim alone.

Brian Herbert refuses to let the Westwood Dune games be sold by GOG while at the same time profiting off his father's legacy and using brand recognition to prop up his shitty fanfiction.
I agree, but it's his IP... or no one owns anything at all.

And I've seen youtube videos where people argue that copyright should be abolished because...
Because they want legalized puntitive confiscation. Is this not so?

... I decided to just make my own stuff if I couldn't find someone doing the same thing already to patronize.
That's the best option. And how do you feel about entitled strangers [now, or potentially] stealing access to your work without leave?

What if the day came that you decided [for whatever personal, commercial, or philosophical reason of your own] that your work must disappear, and not be made available any longer?

Imagine if a developer makes a very popular (even loved) demonic trillogy of very popular games, or novels, or artworks... and later decides they were wrong to make them? Are we [all] allowed to disregard them, and take the works from them anyway? (It's an extreme example with plenty of legal holes in it, since they doubtless sold the works, but even there it's tricky since for them, even legal copies of their work are an afront to them.)

Do they (any creator/owner) have the right to shutter their own works?

In some cases, the expenditures of licensing it out [again] for sale outweigh the perceived benefits, and so they simply refuse to proceed. Does that make them jerks? What if their reason is being unable to afford it? Still jerks?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Yes you can, but you can't own the abstract; you can own the details.
No, you can't. There is no such thing as ownership of an idea. It's why piracy is not stealing.
Property rights -- as they stem from natural rights -- are based in scarcity. There is no scarcity for intellectual property.

It has been pretended by some, (and in England especially,) that inventors have a natural and exclusive right to their inventions, and not merely for their own lives, but inheritable to their heirs. But while it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from nature at all, it would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right to inventors. It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it. Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody. Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea. In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new and useful devices.

Considering the exclusive right to invention as given not of natural right, but for the benefit of society, I know well the difficulty of drawing a line between the things which are worth to the public the embarrassment of an exclusive patent, and those which are not. As a member of the patent board for several years, while the law authorized a board to grant or refuse patents, I saw with what slow progress a system of general rules could be matured.

If you don't want someone to "steal" your copyrighted work, then the answer is simple: Don't share it and keep it to yourself.
 

Glop_dweller

Prophet
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
1,167
No, you can't. There is no such thing as ownership of an idea. It's why piracy is not stealing.
Bullshit. It's not yours to take theirs.

If you want one, write your own; code your own; don't steal theirs with the bogus justification that anyone could of done it, and that no one owns anything. If you want theirs, you follow their terms.

There are people whose terms are, 'take my work for free', but not everyone will do that; and they should not be pressured to, or robbed if they don't.

Two or more people can come to the same concept simultaniously... but no two people will write the same novel or game or artwork independantly verbatim.
 
Last edited:

EtcEtcEtc

Savant
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
404
Yes you can, but you can't own the abstract; you can own the details.
No, you can't. There is no such thing as ownership of an idea. It's why piracy is not stealing.
Property rights -- as they stem from natural rights -- are based in scarcity. There is no scarcity for intellectual property.

I disagree - there is scarcity for application of intellectual property. JK Rowling creates Harry Potter, the only person who can create Harry Potter novels legally is JK Rowling - this is how she makes money. If everyone flooded the market with their own Harry Potter novels, that -- without copyright -- could be legally sold at market, this would remove the scarcity of JK Rowlings Harry Potter character.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Yes you can, but you can't own the abstract; you can own the details.
No, you can't. There is no such thing as ownership of an idea. It's why piracy is not stealing.
Property rights -- as they stem from natural rights -- are based in scarcity. There is no scarcity for intellectual property.

I disagree - there is scarcity for application of intellectual property. JK Rowling creates Harry Potter, the only person who can create Harry Potter novels legally is JK Rowling - this is how she makes money. If everyone flooded the market with their own Harry Potter novels, that -- without copyright -- could be legally sold at market, this would remove the scarcity of JK Rowlings Harry Potter character.
That is artificial scarcity via monopoly.
 

AdolfSatan

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
1,890
IP Rights are wank that shouldn't even exist, all they do is set progress back.

As for the morals of it, the answer's been there for a long time: I COR 4:7
 

EtcEtcEtc

Savant
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
404
Yes you can, but you can't own the abstract; you can own the details.
No, you can't. There is no such thing as ownership of an idea. It's why piracy is not stealing.
Property rights -- as they stem from natural rights -- are based in scarcity. There is no scarcity for intellectual property.

I disagree - there is scarcity for application of intellectual property. JK Rowling creates Harry Potter, the only person who can create Harry Potter novels legally is JK Rowling - this is how she makes money. If everyone flooded the market with their own Harry Potter novels, that -- without copyright -- could be legally sold at market, this would remove the scarcity of JK Rowlings Harry Potter character.
That is artificial scarcity via monopoly.

How is it artificial? Without JK Rowling putting together the exact ingredients to make Harry Potter a character, then Harry Potter doesn't exist and makes no money. No one else would have ever created Harry Potter - it was uniquely her creation. It did not exist, and never would have existed, without her - that's as scarce as it gets.

Artificial scarcity would be a monopoly on the idea of boy wizards at school, not her holding the right to her unique creation.
 

Glop_dweller

Prophet
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
1,167
Property rights -- as they stem from natural rights -- are based in scarcity. There is no scarcity for intellectual property.
This conveniently ignores the actual work involved, and the bypassing of that work by the property thief.

When a novelist researches their work, that is part of the process; part of their price. Sure, anyone can write a novel about any specialized topic, but they won't match the informed author, and they'll make a fool of themselves if they don't know the subject.



Even if the work is entirely fantasy; with unique/unknown dissimilar fantasy races, to have a cohesion of narative requires a lot of work. That work is stolen by the reader who has ripped off a free copy, or worse, copy/pasted the author's work as their own.

*Of course it goes without saying that it's the same with game developers too.
______________

Peaches are not scarce, but having a healthy peach tree is a lot of work, and the one doing the work to have such a tree is robbed by those who would hop the fence and take their peaches; made even more insidious if they justify the theft by claiming that no one can own peaches, as they are a natural part of the world we live in. That's bull, there would be no easy access to peaches without the hard work of those maintaining their trees for harvest.

Have you not read The Little Red Hen?

_______
 
Last edited:

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
When a novelist researches their work
are they charging for their research
Peaches are not scarce
yes they are

intellectual property is a fiction and mostly nonsense. its important and useful nonsense when it comes to systematically rewarding the effort that goes into making the stuff, but it is nonsense nonetheless. an implicit contract between the audience and the property holder. make it too difficult or inconvenient to buy your shit and people will bypass your ownership. because it's nonsense.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
This conveniently ignores the actual work involved, and the bypassing of that work by the property thief.

When a novelist researches their work, that is part of the process; part of their price. Sure, anyone can write a novel about any specialized topic, but they won't match the informed author, and they'll make a fool of themselves if they don't know the subject.
It's a lot of work to dig holes too, don't see the government giving hole diggers any special rent-seeking benefits.
Peaches are not scarce
yea they are
 

EtcEtcEtc

Savant
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
404
How is it artificial?
*downloads the books*

ah to live in a scarcity free utopia

Yeah but that's artificial scarcity of the actual BOOK - the story, the physical product. But you wouldn't be able to download the book if it didn't exist, which it wouldn't if Rowling hadn't written it.

In fact, in a post scarcity world for media, the ideas ARE the most scarce and valuable item of all. You make money off the actual concept, not necessarily the product.

For everyone saying ideas and creations aren't scarce, look at entertainment. Sure there are is an abundance of product, but a derth of actual good ideas and good work.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom