Why isn't Oblivion a RPG?

[Vipera]

ROFL! Which thread at the ESF did you copy that from? Come on, now. You can tell us.

-D4

Probably one of his own posts.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

ROFL! Which thread at the ESF did you copy that from? Come on, now. You can tell us.

-D4

Probably one of his own posts.

Damn you and your logic.

 

[sheek]

If they only created the skills for that particular concept - varying rates of enemy type encounter - they could just very well condense them all into a single one (something like Outdoorsman or Ranger), and have more powerful creatures require higher skill points in order to be avoided. An Orc requiring say, 20, and a Giant requiring 50, for instance.

But why do that? What does it cost to have languages? All you're doing is taking away from character depth and removing potentialities which is the opposite of what TES is supposedly about. If your character is a ranger who grew up in a region with a lot of gobins you have goblin language. If you think you're going to go up against a lot of giants, you pick giant speak etc. It would be like removing 'hated enemy' from AD&D.

 

[aries202]

HI

I think the reason behind why Oblivion isn't considered an RPG is this:

You can do whatever you want, it is free form.
This means you need to PLAY it. Not GAME it.

And by PLAY it, I mean the word play usually is connected to loosely unplanned activities in which you have a great say in how to these should get planned and implemented (carried out). Children playing outside on a hot summer's day is an an example of this.

By GAME, I mean the word 'game' usually is used about activities in which there are strict rules which must be adhered at all times etc. etc. Think of a boardgame i.e. Monopoly which has rules etc. etc.

And since the first Crpgs was very likely connected to or tied to the D&D rules, people have grown to expect that all Crpgs should use the D&D rules.
(and this is like the boardgame, I mentioned)

Then, Oblivion etc. comes along and makes it so that there no rules (or a few rules) to follow, as well as the player can make the rules up as he go along (sort of). Then people start to say 'but it is not an rpg'.

My answer would be: 'yes, it is an rpg, not just the rpg, you were expecting'.

I have two major grievances with Oblivion

1) the mini-games in which it is the player's skills with his fingers that decided the outcome of the mini-game, not the stats and skills the player's protagonist has.

2)
The annoying pop-up messages which guides you through the game as if you were a 5 or 6 year old.

However, these grievances do not make me think that Oblivion is not an rpg.

aries202

ROFL! Which thread at the ESF did you copy that from? Come on, now. You can tell us.

-D4

HI

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is MY own view on Oblivion, and my OWN thougths about Oblivion, I have stated here. I do not NEED to copy anyone's opinion. I have my OWN opinions....

Let me re-iterate that I do not understand why some codexers is out to get Oblivion. If the game annoys you so much, then please do not either buy it nor play it. (IMHO)
I like the game, Oblivion, very much. However, I do not find that Oblivion is the best game evar or some such thing. I have plenty of critique/criticism of Oblivion - it was just the hightlighst I presented here...

aries202

 

[HardCode]

Post your reasons why you think Oblivion isn't a RPG but an adventure game with RPG elements, or whatever else you think it is. What makes it any less of a RPG that Gothic 3 or Bloodlines for example. Let's not compare it with older pure RPG games, but rather with recent titles that can be considered more RPGs than anything else.

PS: This is a neutral post. I don't hate Oblivion nor do I love it. Just make your argument without flames.

Okay, you seem like a sincere enough TESF person, so:

First of all, Gothic 3 isn't "officially" an RPG. The developers even label it an Action/Adventure with RPG elements. However, from VD's first impressions, I think they lied, too, and it really is an RPG (where Bethesda lied and Oblivion is really an FPS with swords and a big meta-level).

Oblivion isn't an RPG because:
1. The stats mean nothing. Character development is useless (levelled enemies and loot with a shitty implementation).
2. There is no choice or consequence. Choice does NOT mean the player can do whatever it wants, but rather the in-game character must make in-game decisions and have the game world respond to it.

It's also a bad game because:
1. The development house are lying scumbags.
2. It's run by members of the Democratic Party (and you wonder why they want to please the masses, kind of like Welfare and other social services).
3. Everyone talks about Mudcrabs.
4. The UPC code adds up to an evil number.
5. The Fighters Guild is hiring.

 

[Mr Happy]

The higher your skill in Orcish, Giantish etc was, the higher the probability the respective creature would ignore you when encountered. So it was a non-combat or diplomat skill. It wasn't fleshed out much and didn't serve as well relatively as other skills. But it represents the whole New Bethesda ethos. Instead of expanding an element with such potential for interest and depth - they threw it out.

I think a good way to improve on the skill would be allowing a higher skill level to actively understand each creature's language and even engage in dialogue with them.

Yes. Another thing that could be done would be to have thespoken language very scrambled and indecipherable (or inaccurate, maybe "slang" throwing you off, and affecting your decision making) and gradually increase clarity and accuracy of the translation as the skill increases.

If they only created the skills for that particular concept - varying rates of enemy type encounter - they could just very well condense them all into a single one (something like Outdoorsman or Ranger), and have more powerful creatures require higher skill points in order to be avoided. An Orc requiring say, 20, and a Giant requiring 50, for instance.

Their reasoning might have been that the languages were different enough from eachother that one skill governing all wouldnt make much sense (and what sheek said). This would be a great place to link the skills (if one skill rises, say Orcish, a related skill, maybe Giantish goes up by a fraction of that, etc.) Maybe there could be one overarching "Foriegn Languages" skill based on intelligence/personality, with the different languages (and maybe knowledge of customs) as subskills.

 

[aries202]

ROFL! Which thread at the ESF did you copy that from? Come on, now. You can tell us.

-D4

Probably one of his own posts.

Damn you and your logic.

No, it wasn't from one my own posts (on the ESF)

I stated my opinion on Oblivion here, nut the content in the post, I think I may
posted both here and in a thread on the ESF forums. But I didn't copy my statement.

aries202

 

[Data4]

HI

I think the reason behind why Oblivion isn't considered an RPG is this:

You can do whatever you want, it is free form.
This means you need to PLAY it. Not GAME it.

And by PLAY it, I mean the word play usually is connected to loosely unplanned activities in which you have a great say in how to these should get planned and implemented (carried out). Children playing outside on a hot summer's day is an an example of this.

By GAME, I mean the word 'game' usually is used about activities in which there are strict rules which must be adhered at all times etc. etc. Think of a boardgame i.e. Monopoly which has rules etc. etc.

And since the first Crpgs was very likely connected to or tied to the D&D rules, people have grown to expect that all Crpgs should use the D&D rules.
(and this is like the boardgame, I mentioned)

Then, Oblivion etc. comes along and makes it so that there no rules (or a few rules) to follow, as well as the player can make the rules up as he go along (sort of). Then people start to say 'but it is not an rpg'.

My answer would be: 'yes, it is an rpg, not just the rpg, you were expecting'.

I have two major grievances with Oblivion

1) the mini-games in which it is the player's skills with his fingers that decided the outcome of the mini-game, not the stats and skills the player's protagonist has.

2)
The annoying pop-up messages which guides you through the game as if you were a 5 or 6 year old.

However, these grievances do not make me think that Oblivion is not an rpg.

aries202

ROFL! Which thread at the ESF did you copy that from? Come on, now. You can tell us.

-D4

HI

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is MY own view on Oblivion, and my OWN thougths about Oblivion, I have stated here. I do not NEED to copy anyone's opinion. I have my OWN opinions....

Let me re-iterate that I do not understand why some codexers is out to get Oblivion. If the game annoys you so much, then please do not either buy it nor play it. (IMHO)
I like the game, Oblivion, very much. However, I do not find that Oblivion is the best game evar or some such thing. I have plenty of critique/criticism of Oblivion - it was just the hightlighst I presented here...

aries202

Your opinions are indeed your own, but they're representative of an extremely misguided view of what an RPG is. And no, an RPG is not "what you make of it", at least not totally. It amazes me that so many Oblivion fans in particular declare themselves so-called "hardcore" RPG fans, yet don't have the foggiest idea what an RPG is.

-D4

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's a bit off-topic, but kinda relevant. From a recent PM:

http://forums.dearwandy.com/viewtopic.php?id=20057

Poster A: Yeah [Oblivion] is a good action/exploration game but it's a ****ing **** RPG and the questions (quests, I assume) are too linear and not enough options with them.

Poster B: Maybe it's not the RPG you were looking for cecil; but for an FPS junkie like me, who just didn't have the patience to read every word that Morrowind spat out, I found in deep(ish) and absorbing.

Certainly it represents excellent value for money.

Just out of curiosity; did you think Star Wars KOTOR was diluted shite too?

 

[EEVIAC]

Oblivion is mostly an Action/Adventure hybrid with weak RPG features buit in to it (character generation is pretty much the limit of those features). It is also a bad game... a bad Action game and a bad Adventure game.

I think that's something awfully prevalent in recent action RPG's. I can't imagine that a person could play God Of War or Ninja Gaiden and not be astonished by how much more sophisticated the combat is than Oblivion. Considering the action component is the major gameplay device, it's not too much to expect it to at least be decent.

As for the adventure part of the game, I can't imagine a more generic world. Its like medieval suburban sprawl.

 

[Ladonna]

Role Player: Wouldn't that just be doing what Bethesda have already done? Condensing things into one 'Meta' skill and leaving it at that?

I thought the language choices in Daggerfall were just part of the choices of how you played the game.

For example: If I picked Orcish, and it actually mattered in a Daggerfall sequel (lets pretend its another dimension) then subplots could be given to me if I managed to create a rapport with an Orc chieftain and this could lead into a whole new part of the game. Since I didn't take Giantish, stiff rubarb. I would get a few ughs and have to deal with some gigantic beast attempting to knock my head off. Choice and consequence.

The current Meta way of being able to talk to everything only allows players to be everything in the game. Hence destroying replayability and different outcomes in future playthroughs of the game.

I know some people might say 'But, how can you expect a developer to give us supar graphics and write all these extra plotlines that we will never see???' If this question just popped up in your mind, remember what many here have argued for....If its gameplay or graphics that need to suffer a little, let the graphics take the backseat and the extra gameplay come to the forefront.

Thats just my take on it anyway.

VD: I found it to be RPG lite. I didn't find it Diluted shit because it was the start of an IP, hence it was the way it was.

 

[Twinfalls]

I know some people might say 'But, how can you expect a developer to ... write all these extra plotlines that we will never see???'

Those people include Bethesda programmer Steve Meister, who firmly retained that view despite patient attempts to explain why he should reconsider, in discussion with him at this forum.

It's frankly rather strange that Bethesda consider this anathema given that one of their supposed selling points is replayability.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD: I found it to be RPG lite. I didn't find it Diluted shit because it was the start of an IP, hence it was the way it was.

That was still the other quy's comment, not mine.

 

[Ladonna]

Twinfalls: Thats what happens when Marketing departments hold the whip hand in the new Industry.

I have even seen Gaider rattling on about fighting Marketing over such things as Slut armour for female characters. Marketing apparently like to keep it in because it gets more of the adolescent sales.

The tail wags the dog, and I bet this Meister fellow had a Marketing hand firmly up his arse.

 

[bozia2012]

So as you see O. sucks at being an RPG and (picking from "big" titles) ToEE, Bloodlines or even.. KotOR2 are closer to RPG archetype. Do I deserve a dumbfuck now?

Are you stupid? Why should you get a dumbfuck for this at the codex?!

But you get dumbfucked for talking nice about KotOR2.

Anyway O design is as ridiculous as it could be. Daggerfall was on a good way to ultimate RPG (but it lacked that magic that made Torment an RPG despite it's flaws). Now MW and O. "evolved" by having less and less features. In Daggerfall you could easily make any character and play successfully. If you didn't want to use magic (i.e. levitate spell) you could train analogic physical skill (in this case - climbing and jumping). In O. you don't have that problem - levitate doesn't exist due some idiotic performance problems (i believe). I also really don't know why people rave so much about grafix in O? Too plastic and done without any ambition (wearing an armor simply changed the character model - check how it's done in TQ). And the idea that you couldn't fight horseback - as good as an idea that in a racing game you have to get out of car to push it by yourself to change the direction you're goin'....

 

[Twinfalls]

Twinfalls: Thats what happens when Marketing departments hold the whip hand in the new Industry.

I have even seen Gaider rattling on about fighting Marketing over such things as Slut armour for female characters. Marketing apparently like to keep it in because it gets more of the adolescent sales.

The tail wags the dog, and I bet this Meister fellow had a Marketing hand firmly up his arse.

That's true, but the problem is deeper. Meister is just a coder, not a designer, but he nonetheless genuinely does not see any benefit in mutually exclusive game paths. The same mindset was espoused by Gabe Newell, Mr Half-Life, recently. And we can bet the Toddling feels the same.

"Why make stuff that the player will never see??" is a serious outlook which seems increasingly prevalent from a design standpoint, not just a marketing one. And while it's understandable for a railroad-FPS designer to hold that view, seeing it from supposed RPG designers making 'sandbox', 'play this multiple times with different characters!' games is baffling.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So as you see O. sucks at being an RPG and (picking from "big" titles) ToEE, Bloodlines or even.. KotOR2 are closer to RPG archetype. Do I deserve a dumbfuck now?

Are you stupid? Why should you get a dumbfuck for this at the codex?!

But you get dumbfucked for talking nice about KotOR2.

Stupid much? You will never ever get dumbfucked here for talking "nice" about ANY game, but you might get dumbfucked for stating such nonsense.

 

[aries202]

Twinfalls: Thats what happens when Marketing departments hold the whip hand in the new Industry.

I have even seen Gaider rattling on about fighting Marketing over such things as Slut armour for female characters. Marketing apparently like to keep it in because it gets more of the adolescent sales.

The tail wags the dog, and I bet this Meister fellow had a Marketing hand firmly up his arse.

HI

I don't understand this statement from Gaider (from Bioware). IIRC, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 was developed as Mature games. (but for some reasons got T rating from ESRB ???)
I remember reading somewhere, either on Bioware's website or in one of the game journals that they really meant it - when they said they were developing Mature games.

I also think that the content of the both BG1 and BG2 are Mature, I mean there are prostitutes, in BG1, I think, you go into a brothel etc. etc.

However, I do not think that an adolescent will buy the game - just to get a good look at some nearly nude women in what is described above as 'slut armour'. Hopefully, people buy games to play them as well as enjoy them etc. etc. And if one does, hopefully, he will get so involved in the game that he didn't notice the female character's armour - you know the skimpy little outfights which only covers parts of the female warriors ---- body.
(personally, I don't like them either ---- )

Oh, and if you need the make 'slut armour' one of the game's selling points, then, imho, you didn't that great a job when creating the game.

aries202

 

[Lumpy]

Great games are GAMED, not PLAYED.
Really, you should know that.

 

[bozia2012]

So as you see O. sucks at being an RPG and (picking from "big" titles) ToEE, Bloodlines or even.. KotOR2 are closer to RPG archetype. Do I deserve a dumbfuck now?

Are you stupid? Why should you get a dumbfuck for this at the codex?!

But you get dumbfucked for talking nice about KotOR2.

Stupid much? You will never ever get dumbfucked here for talking "nice" about ANY game, but you might get dumbfucked for stating such nonsense.

I know my ignorance is unforgivable but how did Volly got his title?

@aries202: Great games are gamed, "play" is what you can do with your balls (whatever you've got down there). I couldn't restrain myself from saying that

 

[Ladonna]

Lumpy: I thought 'gaming' something meant taking advantage of every exploit you can get your hands on? I must be out of date with the coolspeak these days...

Aries: I can picture some 12 year old boy (add or subtract years according to hormones/perversity level) picking up one game, seeing a girl character in normal armour, then picking up another game, seeing BOOBIES!!11!! and quickly racing over to the counter with his money in hand.

I even remember the outbursts on the ESF back when Morrowind first came out. Some of the Female armour didn't show the chest poking that they expected. Anger ensued.

Twinfalls: Lets face it. Many of these guys are not in it for the pride of creating something that they themselves would love to play. They are in it to make as much money as they can for as little money as they need to spend. Less writing and it sells great? Awesome, lets start churning these puppies out.

The old 'People will never see it1!1' is just a nice, pseudo intellectual argument that they smugly throw out to the panting fanboys who are waiting to repeat their masters words. Fools. I hate people like that.

Bozia: Check Retardo land.

 

[Lumpy]

So as you see O. sucks at being an RPG and (picking from "big" titles) ToEE, Bloodlines or even.. KotOR2 are closer to RPG archetype. Do I deserve a dumbfuck now?

Are you stupid? Why should you get a dumbfuck for this at the codex?!

But you get dumbfucked for talking nice about KotOR2.

Stupid much? You will never ever get dumbfucked here for talking "nice" about ANY game, but you might get dumbfucked for stating such nonsense.

I know my ignorance is unforgivable but how did Volly got his title?

He got it for owning 90% or the Retardo Land threads.
And for being an idiot, as can be seen from any of his posts.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

So as you see O. sucks at being an RPG and (picking from "big" titles) ToEE, Bloodlines or even.. KotOR2 are closer to RPG archetype. Do I deserve a dumbfuck now?

Are you stupid? Why should you get a dumbfuck for this at the codex?!

But you get dumbfucked for talking nice about KotOR2.

Stupid much? You will never ever get dumbfucked here for talking "nice" about ANY game, but you might get dumbfucked for stating such nonsense.

I know my ignorance is unforgivable but how did Volly got his title?

@aries202: Great games are gamed, "play" is what you can do with your balls (whatever you've got down there). I couldn't restrain myself from saying that

Well, have a look around ten pages back in Retardo Land. He began to believe the Codex was stalking a friend of his, for some reason.

 

[Human Shield]

Gaming would involve operating under rules. Bullshit pretending (like when kids argue over who shot who in their play) is just people oblivious about how things work.

PnP is mostly about shared imagined space, it works by the people agreeing to effect the shared space in set ways. If one wants to start playing as the Joker while the others are playing D&D you have a problem. ESF fans want to play the Joker (literally). They think roleplaying is to do whatever they want and think through their fan-fiction stories while a CGI forest and medieval-dressed people somehow helps (I guess to lazy to use notepad). It is absolute self-fulfillment which is in no way roleplaying.

As for Oblivion:

1. The character skills are almost pointless. Closer to an FPS with mini-games.
2. The world isn't very reactive, nothing you do effects anything else. Character skills can't effect much. Although I will give credit to sneaking to disarm then talking someone to start a fight, but it doesn't have much purpose, nor primarily use character skills.

So I'd call it an action game with RPG elements.

 

[The Hedonist]

Well my definition of RPG is a PnP game like D&D. I'd call everything on the computer a cRPG. I'd say Oblivion isn't much of a cRPG because it's extremely shallow in every aspect except perhaps bumpmapping(get it, because bumpmapping makes 2d textures appear to have depth, rofl). I of course take into account the progress the genre has made over the years so if say, Champions of Krinn, had come out today it wouldn't be much of an RPG either.

Hahaha too funny, BTW, your signature is not 5 words . . . its four words and a conjunction, FYI.

I think that Oblivion is a piece of crap. They took the best parts of Morrowind and just dropped them. It limits roleplaying to the point of boredom, and holds your hand so much it makes me feel like a Fischer Price my first RPG.