Why so much AoD butthurt?

[FeelTheRads]

Yep, same shit. Removing factions, weapon classes, skills, trademark features like levitation, wall climbing, etc is exactly the same as removing walking from A to B in an isometric game (15 inch avg travel distance) or telling the player that he sees an object he can interact with (in the best traditions of PnP games, mind you) instead of letting the player discover it all by himself (Achievement!). Exactly the same.

It's the way you motivate it that's exactly like Bethesda. That's what I'm saying. Typical marketing shit: We know better than you what you want, believe us.

Yeah, words can't describe what I felt when I clicked on the rope and then on the elevator. ME! I DID IT! LOOK, MA! ALL BY MYSELF! TAKE THAT, YOU BROKEN ELEVATOR!

I don't see the difference between doing something that's painfully obvious (at least by the adventure games' standards) and being presented with a text option that sums up the obvious (for my character) things, but maybe that's me.

And here we go again, deriding how other games work to make yours look better: You retards, liking such obviously obvious things. That's so childish. Hahaha. I laugh at you while I create my superior game.

But hey, good stuff. That "Achievement!" stuff was particularly brilliant. Shows you know what you do because you can reduce everything to the worst possible situation. Clearly "discovering" in RPGs is only that. Aod4lyfe.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I see AoD as basically a huge homage to New Reno and other C&C-heavy segments of Fallout. New Reno: Ancient Rome Edition. It's not a Fallout clone, but it is a clone of portions of Fallout that the creator has a huge fetish for.

First, I didn't like New Reno. Second, I've never claimed, hinted, or implied that AoD is a Fallout clone or a Fallout-like game.

That's totally cool. The problem is when said creator goes around saying that everything else in the RPG genre (including, in effect, other parts of Fallout!) is fluff that should be disregarded, and that's why the game is the way it is.

And why exactly is it a problem? I'm not saying that these features must be eliminated and I don't attack games that have them. So, it's just one game. If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to play it. No?

 

[Infinitron]

I've never claimed, hinted, or implied that AoD is a Fallout clone or a Fallout-like game.

What, not even Fallout-like in terms of user interface and implementation of turn-based combat? Give me a break, man.

I'm not saying that these features must be eliminated and I don't attack games that have them.

No, you only imply that fans of those games are easily-amused twerps for enjoying them.

Yeah, words can't describe what I felt when I clicked on the rope and then on the elevator. ME! I DID IT! LOOK, MA! ALL BY MYSELF! TAKE THAT, YOU BROKEN ELEVATOR!

What am I supposed to understand from a statement like that? That you're just A-OK with environmental interaction features?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah, btw, Fallout didn't have any fence climbing. It does have an animation for climbing ladders, though, which wouldn't be that hard to do. Also, the same "use" animation where the character bends and wiggles his hands a bit is good enough to abstract most of the actions.

Wiggling hands is interaction with environment?

It's the way you motivate it that's exactly like Bethesda. That's what I'm saying. Typical marketing shit: We know better than you what you want, believe us.

When did I say that? The game reflects my own preferences, nothing else. I don't know what you want (nor do I care).

And here we go again, deriding how other games work to make yours look better: You retards, liking such obviously obvious things. That's so childish. Hahaha. I laugh at you while I create my superior game.

I'm sure you're aware that Fallout has been on my top 10 list since the day I've played it. It's a brilliant game and there is nothing wrong with its scripted events and the rope thing was pretty cool too. That's not what we're talking about. The rope thing was obvious (pretty sure that your text box told you that you needed a rope in case you didn't have one) and thus I don't see a big deal replacing this 'element of discovery' with a text adventure element.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Well, think about it. While poor us simple-minded fold were cumming all over our keyboards when we discovered that we could cut a fence with pliers and sneak in, VD was all like "Pfah. Obvious. When I make my own game I won't have any of this shit".

 

[FeelTheRads]

Wiggling hands is interaction with environment?

Teleporting is game?

 

[hiver]

No, you only imply that fans of those games are easily-amused twerps for enjoying them.

How the fuck does he imply that?
It wouldnt be you are just inventing bullshit to apply some emotional blackmailing now would it?

What am I supposed to understand from a statement like that?

Its a mistary!

Just invent the "true meaning" like youre doing all the fucking time for the last several pages.


/


btw, just for the record - i think gameplay in form of different options available through dialogue that are very dependent on skills is an awesome part of AoD.
One of the things that make me like the game very much.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What, not even Fallout-like in terms of user interface and style of turn-based combat? Give me a break, man.

Fallout-like combat clearly doesn't make a game Fallout-like, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No, you only imply that fans of those games are easily-amused twerps for enjoying them.

Not at all. I only imply that pretending that performing an obvious action is a semi-orgasmic experience that feels you with a sense of accomplishment is silly.

Fallout's scripted events were superb and added a lot to the game, but they could have been easily replaced with, say, PST style interaction (like the armor puzzle, for example).

What am I supposed to understand from a statement like that? That you're just A-OK with environmental interaction features?

That it was not an example of environmental interaction. That there are plenty of scripted events like these in AoD, but they are presented differently. That I don't see any real difference between clicking on a designated spot or on a text option.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Teleporting is game?

Teleporting removes filler from the game.

 

[Infinitron]

That it was not an example of environmental interaction.

Yes, it is. Being scripted does magically transform it into something else. You are interacting with the environment.

Fallout's scripted events were superb and added a lot to the game, but they could have been easily replaced

I don't see any real difference between clicking on a designated spot or on a text option.

You're not just "clicking". You are using something from your inventory. You are taking stock of your situation, examining your environment and putting two and two together. This is fun.

 

[John Yossarian]

AFAIK, the stuff that is present in most RPGs and absent in AoD is absent not because VD thought it was useless, but because they didn't have time/resources/people to make them as good as the stuff AoD does have. I respect that decision, but some people may disagree with that, claiming that a little is better than nothing, and that's fine too. But at least have the decency not to twist the original reason just because it's easy to get VD arguing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm aware of what does exist in other genres (JA2) and sub-genres (first person games that can cheat and skip animations, like climbing air shafts and walls in Daggerfall). Fallout? I don't see any interaction there, unless you mean scripted events (which were superb).

And what's wrong with scripted events?

Nothing. Didn't I just say they were superb?

They're part of the game, too.

And AoD is loaded to the brim with them. What's your point? That you should be allowed to click on objects to trigger the events?

BTW, would you consider Ultima 6/7 another genre? You didn't mention them. Rather extensive unscripted environmental interaction in those games.

I played them a long time ago (on the release) and I don't remember them like it was yesterday. Can you refresh my memory?

 

[Vault Dweller]

... just because it's easy to get VD arguing.

 

[Infinitron]

AFAIK, the stuff that is present in most RPGs and absent in AoD is absent not because VD thought it was useless, but because they didn't have time/resources/people to make them as good as the stuff AoD does have. I respect that decision, but some people may disagree with that, claiming that a little is better than nothing, and that's fine too. But at least have the decency not to twist the original reason just because it's easy to get VD arguing.

I agree, but VD is the one who's intent on making it more than that. Whether it's even worth spending time arguing with him about it is a different story

 

[John Yossarian]

You're not just "clicking". You are using something from your inventory. You are taking stock of your situation, examining your environment and putting two and two together. This is fun.

Can't this be added in AoD? Like launch TA when player puts some item in hand in some special location?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Teleporting is game?

Teleporting removes filler from the game.

"Wiggling hands" removes the need to have a different animation for each action. The same animation can be used for lockpicking, opening doors, disarming etc. But I guess you understood what I meant (I mean it was "obvious" and you have a way with "obvious" things), but hey, why not avoid the point and take stuff out of context instead. You wouldn't be VD if you didn't do that.

Anyway, the animation isn't even the issue. The issue is finding out stuff for yourself instead of being presented with a list.

 

[Infinitron]

I played them a long time ago (on the release) and I don't remember them like it was yesterday. Can you refresh my memory?

In short, the Ultima games in question had an Elder Scrolls-style fully manipulable environment, with rudimentary physics - while still remaining top-down and party-based. Many objects in the world could be used - famously, you could use ovens to bake bread using flour and water. This was all done in the world, not via text menus.

 

[John Yossarian]

I doubt the problem is animations really. Putting in any new system (if that's what you guys are asking for, a general system where you can always "attempt" enviromental interactions of different types, some of which succeed) brings with it a lot of balance issues, branching issues, verisimilitude issues.

Edit: IF you want to do it right I mean.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I doubt the problem is animations really. Putting in any new system (if that's what you guys are asking for, a general system where you can always "attempt" enviromental interactions of different types, some of which succeed) brings with it a lot of balance issues, branching issues, verisimilitude issues.

Hey, VD said:

While doing animations and new assets would be expensive and time-consuming

Also, funny stuff about this:

Sealing the cave was cool, but it was a single use scripted event (not that there is anything wrong with it). Sure, some people missed it, but I would tie it to your character's perception (like we did in the graveyard) and tell you that your character noticed a weak spot if you pass the check and give appropriate options.

I remember arguing with VD about this thing some time ago. Back then VD thought it was just perfect that it was an isolated thing and that there weren't any perception checks to get you to notice it while I was arguing that exactly because it was just a one time thing there should have been a hint if you passed a skill check.
There's a big difference, though, between "These walls look unstable" and "These walls look unstable and here's what you can do with them". Why? Because fuck, I don't know. Maybe that hint doesn't hit me in the face. Maybe I didn't pay attention. And if you insist on comparing with P&P sessions, you typically just get hints from the DM, not a list of actions that you can try.

 

[John Yossarian]

Hey, VD said:

While doing animations and new assets would be expensive and time-consuming

I know, and still don't think that part would be so bad. Just giving a popup saying whatever you attempted and what you accomplished would work.
Some assets will always need to be created though, like if you blow something up, it needs to look blown up afterwards. But since they control the environmental interactions and objects in the gameworld, they can always cut down on those that need too many new assets.

Also, funny stuff about this:

Sealing the cave was cool, but it was a single use scripted event (not that there is anything wrong with it). Sure, some people missed it, but I would tie it to your character's perception (like we did in the graveyard) and tell you that your character noticed a weak spot if you pass the check and give appropriate options.

I remember arguing with VD about this thing some time ago. Back then VD thought it was just perfect that it was an isolated thing and that there weren't any perception checks to get you to notice it while I was arguing that exactly because it was just a one time thing there should have been a hint if you passed a skill check.
There's a big difference, though, between "These walls look unstable" and "These walls look unstable and here's what you can do with them". Why? Because fuck, I don't know. Maybe that hint doesn't hit me in the face. Maybe I didn't pay attention. And if you insist on comparing with P&P sessions, you typically just get hints from the DM, not a list of actions that you can try.

Don't know whose way it is anymore, but I prefer:
1) Skill dependent advice from game (per>6 -> "You notice...")
2) Unassisted Player input (In "engine", dialogue window, whatever, as long as it remains unassisted)
3) Skill based options presented
4) Skill based outcome (so that even if player knows he can cut wires or climb something, if his char can't do it, then that's that)

IMO, that's how combat works in AoD. Beginers won't beat tough fights even with good starting builds, because they suck at unassisted Player input. No one beats tough fights with shitty builds because of the rest.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Wiggling hands" removes the need to have a different animation for each action. The same animation can be used for lockpicking, opening doors, disarming etc. But I guess you understood what I meant (I mean it was "obvious" and you have a way with "obvious" things), but hey, why not avoid the point and take stuff out of context instead. You wouldn't be VD if you didn't do that.

We are talking about different things here.

The way I see it, interacting with the environment is something you can do at any time, without any scripted events and hidden boxes that trigger them. Basically, scripted events fake the interaction. I'm talking about the real deal here.

Silent Storm had the basics done well - you could climb fences, open windows and get inside, you could blow holes in the walls to get in, you could jump down, etc. You couldn't climb walls or climb trees to get a good shot or bring down bridges (basically buildings and fences were "real", the rest was "fake").

Scripting events are a cheap and convenient way to get around (and no, it's just the animations, of course), but you are not interacting with the environment there. You are interacting with a hidden box. You click on it and trigger an event. We don't have the former, but we have plenty of the latter. Some people don't like how these options are presented to the player. I get it, but I consider it a minor issue - RPGs aren't puzzle games and most options are very clear to the player.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hey, VD said: "While doing animations and new assets would be expensive and time-consuming..."

I was talking about Fallout there (about a scripted option to climb over the gate), not proper interaction, which requires way more than animations.

There's a big difference, though, between "These walls look unstable" and "These walls look unstable and here's what you can do with them". Why? Because fuck, I don't know. Maybe that hint doesn't hit me in the face. Maybe I didn't pay attention. And if you insist on comparing with P&P sessions, you typically just get hints from the DM, not a list of actions that you can try.

You read that the walls look unstable. The obvious conclusion is that you can do something to bring them down. You didn't figure it out on your own, the game basically told you:

"How would you like to collapse the entrance? All you need to do is to figure out which item does the trick. Psst, it starts with D and has a timer on it."

 

[PorkaMorka]

A single player TB stat based RPG with a bend of strategic combat and a heavy dose of C&C. If you morons expected something else then it's your fault.

Maybe that's the problem. VD distilled the essence of the C&C based storyfag RPG, paring away a lot of the extraneous bullshit, leaving just the core gameplay.

And certain people realized that what they liked about previous storyfag RPGs *was* the extraneous bullshit, not the core gameplay.

 

[Harpsichord]

My one and only issue with the game was that in spite of trying a whole lot of builds, many of them with charisma dumped, I could only kill the assassin as a mercenary 'reliably'(7 out of 10) with a dagger spec. I tried maxing con, maxing str, maxing dex, maxing int, well rounded builds, and everything in between, and that's the only thing that worked.

Which, having read all of the arguments here and on the Iron Tower forums, still doesn't make sense to me. Combat seems terribly random(which while 'realistic' isn't fun), and I felt like my actions determined the outcome very little. I'm not even saying it was 'too hard,' because you can always reload and end up with an entirely different result doing the exact same things. The fight with the assassin can be a roflstomp in either direction, or something that you barely make it through, even if you do the exact same actions in the exact same order with the exact same stats.

That said, the good seemed to outweigh the bad and I'll likely just avoid combat whenever possible when I buy the game and play it. Which kinda sucks, I expected something a bit more involved when I tried the combat demo.

 

[Infinitron]

First, I didn't like New Reno.

Well, my point about positivity vs negativity still stands, no matter what inspired your game.

Fallout-like combat clearly doesn't make a game Fallout-like, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

That doesn't make any sense. If the combat is similar then that's one point of similarity with Fallout.

The way I see it, interacting with the environment is something you can do at any time, without any scripted events and hidden boxes that trigger them. Basically, scripted events fake the interaction. I'm talking about the real deal here.

Silent Storm had the basics done well - you could climb fences, open windows and get inside, you could blow holes in the walls to get in, you could jump down, etc. You couldn't climb walls or climb trees to get a good shot or bring down bridges (basically buildings and fences were "real", the rest was "fake").

Scripting events are a cheap and convenient way to get around (and no, it's just the animations, of course), but you are not interacting with the environment there. You are interacting with a hidden box. You click on it and trigger an event.

This is stupid. Environmental interaction is environmental interaction. It doesn't matter how it's implemented. Being scripted doesn't make it "fake". It just makes it limited.

Your game doesn't allow you to talk to every NPC in the world, some of them are just background fluff. Does that make NPC interaction in AoD "fake"?

A single player TB stat based RPG with a bend of strategic combat and a heavy dose of C&C. If you morons expected something else then it's your fault.

Maybe that's the problem. VD distilled the essence of the C&C based storyfag RPG, paring away a lot of the extraneous bullshit, leaving just the core gameplay.

And certain people realized that what they liked about previous storyfag RPGs *was* the extraneous bullshit, not the core gameplay.

Ah, but this isn't about extraneous non-RPG bullshit. VD has created a very specific subtype of "RPG" and he's defined the other subtypes as extraneous bullshit.