You remember that dialog in bloodlines that Nines had

[Captain Shrek]

Hiding the skill doesn't fix shitty design. The auto-win is still there, you just don't know which one is it.

Not really. Make a thread and I can try and explain why. You can tell me why not.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

I disagree, because point-hoarding is my playstyle. I initially started out as a "create a character concept before playing and spend points as soon as received to reinforce said concept" but I stopped this quite quickly because it's obvious that my ideas are never fully supported by the game's content itself.

Funny, it actually ends up being my playstyle quite often as well. Especially if I'm looking to see as much of the content as possible. My problem with it is that this playstyle makes sense when you don't trust the devs to balance the skills well, but at the cost of removing the enjoyable risk that comes from a potential failure. I do think some kind of indicator as to the general difficulty would be fine (so you know whether its worth trying), but having the skill level requirement made explicit really cranks my OCD tendencies up to 11. The ability to add points in the middle of a conversation was a lifesaver in that regard.

In VTM, the savescumming wasn't a major issue on any given conversation checks, as there were enough points to do almost everything I wanted. I think the savescumming came into play more with figuring out how to get "free" points from conversation, which is a separate (and IMO bigger) problem with the design. I was thinking of savescumming in the context of games generally, rather than VTM (cough, cough, Fallout).

If I fail a lockpicking/hacking check the same applies, and hiding the number doesn't do anyone any favors because then I'm just going to gradually increase it a point at a time until it works and just be frustrated with the jerks who chose to hide that information.

Fair point. I had similar experiences with the Fallout games, particularly with regard to book-trainable skills; I never wanted to raise skills that were below the book-trainable cap if I could muddle through at my current level because that would essentially waste points.

 

[J1M]

The solution to this skill issue is two-fold.

1. Success needs to be placed on a gradient, not a binary win/lose scale.
2. Failures should open up interesting content that is not accessible via success.

When you intimidate for additional payment and fail you are more likely to reload than if you intimidate and get a minor $100 bonus. There may be a $500 bonus for people of high skill that you dont know about, and an exclusive option to bluff for more backstory/something else interesting that you are missing out on for choosing to intimidate. Maybe intimidating with zero points in it leads to getting laughed at by the npc, and they offer to train you up a pip by opening up a side quest.

The point is that like in real life failure is interesting, not just a non-event.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

The solution to this skill issue is two-fold.

1. Success needs to be placed on a gradient, not a binary win/lose scale.
2. Failures should open up interesting content that is not accessible via success.

When you intimidate for additional payment and fail you are more likely to reload than if you intimidate and get a minor $100 bonus. There may be a $500 bonus for people of high skill that you dont know about, and an exclusive option to bluff for more backstory/something else interesting that you are missing out on for choosing to intimidate. Maybe intimidating with zero points in it leads to getting laughed at by the npc, and they offer to train you up a pip by opening up a side quest.

The point is that like in real life failure is interesting, not just a non-event.

 

[Murk]

Without diving into this damn discussion again, the computer's in the doctors office tell you random fluff, give you info to blackmail the doctor, give the location of the key to get access to the glass doors separating the area where the thin-bloods kept on-tap, and also have some other minor information regarding things you can do later with the werewolf blood, how to turn the things off, and all that.

The fact that some of it is HURR DURR STD doesn't change the fact that there's useful stuff there to, then again, why the fuck wouldn't the game have some low-brow humor? One of the characters' uber-armor is a white fur coat and dr. Seuss style hat.

What is it with the damn expectations on games?

 

[suejak]

You seem to think that my single problem is this one joke, or something. I didn't even remember this joke specifically.

Everything on that computer really struck me as being shoddily put together. Actually, everything in the clinic struck me that way. There were tons of options -- lots of things to do -- but they were all executed like a bad mod.

I dunno, Troika was never good at writing things that adults can be intellectually stimulated by. They wrote at a teen level, and their games are tacky. However, they're full of choices. And I guess that's enough for some people.

 

[Roguey]

The stealth option to get the werewolf blood was exceptionally shitty. It's easier to just kill the fucker and take the hit to humanity so you can get everything in peace.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

The stealth option to get the werewolf blood was exceptionally shitty. It's easier to just kill the fucker and take the hit to humanity so you can get everything in peace.

I definitely savescummed on that one! Even though humanity was plentiful enough that you would have to actually try to unleash the beast.

All in all, I don't remember the clinic being a very good mission location or good representations of the game's writing (although I thought the thin-bloods around at the beach were kind of a nice little vignette, so I guess they kind of count). A far bigger flaw in the clinic writing than the emails is the way Heather is left alone to bleed to death by what are, ostensibly, medical professionals. You'd think that would be more fruitful blackmail material than an affair.

 

[SCO]

They're ghouls of Jeanette/Therese.


Nasty girl isn't she?