Your disrespectful attitude towards Cain, Boyarsky, Avellone has to stop

[Bah]

This is bogus. Far more likely it is that their games that we are most impressed with were 'lightning in a bottle' that came as the result of the whole team who worked on them—and the circumstance under which they were made.

Blah blah, it takes a village, blah blah. The ones who are in charge and have the responsibility to say yes or no, are the ones who get to take the blame.

 

[DeepOcean]

I think the problem is that those designers are surrounded by an enviroment that has an entire different goal from the companies of the 90's. The goal of most modern companies is to sell to the mass market that didn't exist on the 90's. People just phony in seeking security on a career instead of taking risk and go on their own, so they internalize the goals of their companies to the point where they even delude themselves thinking "We are evolving the outdated design and improving it." when in reality they are just turning everything into second rate MMO mechanics so their companies can sell on the mass market. "Improving" then becomes the new name for dumbing down because from the point of view of those companies, if dumb down leads to more sales, then it is an improvement.

Honestly, I respect those designers contributions but the reality is that they work on companies that are targeting mass markets and they trained themselves into skills related into how to make games appeal to mass markets. The OP is in part right but not for the reasons he claims, it isn't a question of biology but a question of goals, if your goal is to work on a mass market orientated company, you will spend years training how to make games accessible to the mass market instead of spending years training how to make niche RPGs better.

So, even if you pick someone like Tim Cain to make a new Fallout, he spent decades on mass market companies at this point, he would make Fallout 3 with an itemization like an MMO because that is what he has been training for decades to do and internalized mass market appeal like a virtue because he absorbed the values of the companies he worked with. Avellone is another matter because he is a writer and as a designer while he spent years working at Obsidian, he doesn't lead for a LONG time. Maybe his writing skills are still sharp and he might retain some of the old RPG game design goals in mind.

 

[Serious_Business]

"I would like you to STOP being so disrespectful to my parents. It's not because you have some diploma that you should look down on people."

"I'm not looking down on people or your parents for that matter."

"Yes you are. You are DISRESPECTFUL. You seemed to be bored out of your mind at the diner."

"So yeah, I was bored out of my mind."

"See? You should have done something. It was a lack of RESPECT."

"Look, man, I didn't feel like it."

"You think we're going to have a strong, respectful relationship with that attitude?"

"Maybe not so much, but at least I probably won't get invited anymore to see your parents so I can play video games instead."

"That's IT. We're not having sex tonight."

"That's disrespectful."

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I’m not saying an RPG has to be bland mush to have mass market appeal. It’s certainly possible to thread that needle, although it’s exceedingly rare (and based on your examples, it seems to require both a big budget and an existing franchise with a pretty big fanbase). I’m just saying it’s much, much easier to achieve commercial success by making bland mush, especially when you’re working on a new IP with a shoestring budget.

Should they have tried to create something more engaging for the Troika fanbase anyway? That’s what I wanted, but going for crossover appeal was just as likely to get them another Bloodlines. Why take that risk? All of their experience in the industry was telling them that a game with a lot less ambition and a lot more polish would net them a much larger bonus.

Commercially, they made the right call. TOW was the second best selling game in America last month, behind only the new Call of Duty, and that doesn’t count any of the people who signed up to Gamepass to play it.

Tim and Leonard knew what they were doing and they did it very well. But what they were doing was making a game for the Fallout 3 fanbase.

As Junta pointed out, what they could have done to make it better wouldn't have cost them anything. Their core game loop is fine, the problems are with writing and garish art direction.

I also believe they may have tried to pull one over on the whole "we don't have a AAA budget" thing. Going by https://www.mobygames.com/game/playstation-4/outer-worlds/credits they had a core team of roughly 120 and nearly 100 art contractors. That's bigger than Skyrim and Fallout 4, especially with all the contractors (Fallout 4 had a core team of 100, and 30 contractors).

No, Junta’s wrong (you’ll see if you ever play it). The core game loop is not fine and the stuff he thinks you can get for free costs money. Unless you’re Avellone, good writing requires iteration. It takes more time than bad writing, sometimes a lot more time (and paying people who can do it perfectly on the first pass is way more expensive than paying people who can’t). But that’s not even my point.

This game is very well written in terms of appealing to a mainstream audience. It’s not bland and cliche ridden because Obsidian’s incapable of anything better, it’s bland and cliche ridden because that’s what sells. The cost of trying to write a game that appeals to the Codex is potentially losing that audience. People here hate the art direction, people out there love the art direction.

They put all of their effort into appealing to the mass market. Putting in extra stuff—like more complicated quests—to appeal to us absolutely would’ve cost extra. And we’re not worth the money.

As for the budget, if you played the game you would quickly realize how laughable your comparison is. The total number of people who worked on the game doesn’t tell you that much unless you’re also factoring in development time and employee turnover. How many years did those 130 Bethesda drones spend on Fallout 4?

Plus, Take-Two has been pleasantly surprised by how well TOW’s selling, so either it’s doing truly insane numbers or they didn’t spend that much money on it.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

This game is very well written in terms of appealing to a mainstream audience. It’s not bland and cliche ridden because Obsidian’s incapable of anything better, it’s bland and cliche ridden because that’s what sells.

That must be the most delusional post I read in a while.

Ok, guys. It's bad because it was intended to be that way. Because that's what sells.

What kind of moronic answer is that? You talk like a lawyer using a risky strategy to make your guilty client look good.

 

[Roguey]

Unless you’re Avellone, good writing requires iteration. It takes more time than bad writing, sometimes a lot more time (and paying people who can do it perfectly on the first pass is way more expensive than paying people who can’t). But that’s not even my point.

Obsidian didn't have a problem with this until recently.

This game is very well written in terms of appealing to a mainstream audience. It’s not bland and cliche ridden because Obsidian’s incapable of anything better, it’s bland and cliche ridden because that’s what sells. The cost of trying to write a game that appeals to the Codex is potentially losing that audience.

I believe they could have written a funny game without it coming across as if the entire thing takes place within a sketch comedy. Fallout did it back in the 90s.

As for the budget, if you played the game you would quickly realize how laughable your comparison is. The total number of people who worked on the game doesn’t tell you that much unless you’re also factoring in development time and employee turnover. How many years did those 130 Bethesda drones spend on Fallout 4?

Plus, Take-Two has been pleasantly surprised by how well TOW’s selling, so either it’s doing truly insane numbers or they didn’t spend that much money on it.

They kept costs down by farming all that art to China. Fallout 4 went into full production in 2013, though it had been in pre-production since 2009. Bethesda only has the one full team.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Remember, guys. When people like Bester think you should keep sucking Tim Cain's dick because of what he made 20 years ago, remember this:



Tim argues that character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex. He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system that uses geometric shapes to visualize attributes.

What is that I heard? What? Oh, is the sound of decline and the cRPG apocalypse looming on the horizon.

When the creator of fucking Fallout is saying that we should remove fucking stats, you know you can treat him as a traitor of the whole medium.

 

[Bah]

That must be the most delusional post I read in a while.

Ok, guys. It's bad because it was intended to be that way. Because that's what sells.

What kind of moronic answer is that? You talk like a lawyer using a risky strategy to make your guilty client look good.

Yes, the only way to determine if a game is good is because it has high sales.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

That must be the most delusional post I read in a while.

Ok, guys. It's bad because it was intended to be that way. Because that's what sells.

What kind of moronic answer is that? You talk like a lawyer using a risky strategy to make your guilty client look good.

Yes, the only way to determine if a game is good is because it has high sales.

real quick can someone hit me up with the Tim Cain's inverview where he says this is his "dream game"

It was Boyarsky who used that phrase specifically

https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10425

What's your dream game that you'd like to make? And when are we getting Bloodlines 2 or Arcanum 2? What Troika game would you like to make a sequel to the most?

I'm happy to say that I'm currently working on my dream game.

Blunder!

It was their dream game. They did their best. Let that sink in.

 

[S.torch]

Should they have tried to create something more engaging for the Troika fanbase anyway? That’s what I wanted, but going for crossover appeal was just as likely to get them another Bloodlines. Why take that risk? All of their experience in the industry was telling them that a game with a lot less ambition and a lot more polish would net them a much larger bonus.

Except that Fallout 1 sold well, and right now Fallout is a multi-million dollar franchise. Arcanum also sold well. While games like Bloodlines didn't sold that well, they were not a failure. How we know that? because right now they are working on a sequel of it. With these games they gained the good will of many RPG fans, something that is very important because it brings support. And support it was the developer needs to make more games possible and when the publishers are not happy you go to the fans for that. Just remember all those crownfundings.

Troika failed because all the games they released were in the backs of publishers, even if the games sold well most of the profit goes to the publisher not to the studio making it. Ironically Outer Worlds also is being carried in the backs of a publisher, but this time instead of gaining fans good will, they are losing it. What will happen when neither the fans and the publisher don't be happy? They have a choice, and they chose the publisher instead of the fans. So maybe they can't complain when fans also make their choice to what people they support.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

The photo is courtesy of Roguey.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Should they have tried to create something more engaging for the Troika fanbase anyway?

Classical inversion of values. Gamers shouldn't care about developers' bills because they are not their spouses, children or debt collectors. Players should care about the quality of the games because they pay for them and invest their spare time on them.

When you start with "Developers have to eat" excuses, you enter in dick sucking mode. It's as if we are paying to watch a jazz session and you are trying to make the case that the band is now following in the footsteps of Beyoncé because they have other priorities. That's insane. It shows an immense lack of self-respect as a player and as an enthusiast of the medium.

Besides, you don't decide to be a game developer, much less work with cRPGs, to do shit for the masses. It's nonsensical to give up an academic career in computer science, as Tim Cain did, to make inferior Fallout clones. They need to find a business plan whether they can make at least decent cRPGs without looking foolish. If they don't want to, I have no sympathy for them.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Honestly, I respect those designers contributions but the reality is that they work on companies that are targeting mass markets and they trained themselves into skills related into how to make games appeal to mass markets.

The reality is that they are calling the shots and were eager to jump on the shooter bandwagon to make a buck because they don't give a rat's ass for cRPGs anymore.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I think the problem is that those designers are surrounded by an enviroment that has an entire different goal from the companies of the 90's.

"Hey, guys. I just killed hundreds of jews because everyone else was doing the same".

That's the "I'm just following orders" excuse. You can justify any kind of immoral behavior with this line of reasoning.

 

[Bah]

Thread over. Godwins law was invoked.

 

[Nano]

I’m not saying an RPG has to be bland mush to have mass market appeal. It’s certainly possible to thread that needle, although it’s exceedingly rare (and based on your examples, it seems to require both a big budget and an existing franchise with a pretty big fanbase). I’m just saying it’s much, much easier to achieve commercial success by making bland mush, especially when you’re working on a new IP with a shoestring budget.

Should they have tried to create something more engaging for the Troika fanbase anyway? That’s what I wanted, but going for crossover appeal was just as likely to get them another Bloodlines. Why take that risk? All of their experience in the industry was telling them that a game with a lot less ambition and a lot more polish would net them a much larger bonus.

Commercially, they made the right call. TOW was the second best selling game in America last month, behind only the new Call of Duty, and that doesn’t count any of the people who signed up to Gamepass to play it.

Tim and Leonard knew what they were doing and they did it very well. But what they were doing was making a game for the Fallout 3 fanbase.

On the one hand you have a point, but on the other hand Boyarsky said TOW was his "dream game". Which is just plain false advertising if he knew that this game was going to play it safe to the max.

 

[Bah]

On the one hand you have a point, but on the other hand Boyarsky said TOW was his "dream game". Which is just plain false advertising if he knew that this game was going to play it safe to the max.

It's only false advertising if he doesn't believe it. If he does, then the entire premise of the OP is wrong.

 

[Thonius]

Remember, guys. When people like Bester think you should keep sucking Tim Cain's dick because of what he made 20 years ago, remember this:



Tim argues that character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex. He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system that uses geometric shapes to visualize attributes.

What is that I heard? What? Oh, is the sound of decline and the cRPG apocalypse looming on the horizon.

When the creator of fucking Fallout is saying that we should remove fucking stats, you know you can treat him as a traitor of the whole medium.

Meh, out of touch, largely irrelevant old fart, farting his ideas on stage.

 

[Glop_dweller]

Blah blah, it takes a village, blah blah. The ones who are in charge and have the responsibility to say yes or no, are the ones who get to take the blame.

No, It's not that they couldn't create without help, it's rather that what was created isn't what they set out to create themselves. Terry Gilliam's cut-out montage animations for Monty Python are like nothing the artists would have conceived— yet it was done using their artwork; they were still master's of their own craft. It's the same for certain musical collaborations that use sampled works; those original works are great on their own, but another artist might arrange them cleverly with interesting results... though they might not have been able to create those sampled works themselves.

 

[Roguey]

On the one hand you have a point, but on the other hand Boyarsky said TOW was his "dream game". Which is just plain false advertising if he knew that this game was going to play it safe to the max.

Perhaps Boyarsky's biggest problem with Diablo 3 was that no one wanted to listen to his ideas.

 

[Will Zurmacht]

I doubt Cainarsky even make games anymore. They've already transitioned to elder shaman roles where they "tutor" the young and pass or fail their work. Pep talks, keeping people on schedule, etc.. Every so often they may pass off a word or two of sage advice or try to encourage the use of one of their confused ideas in the final product, but all and all have minimal impact on the outcome.

 

[CappenVarra]

Don’t blame Tim and Leonard, blame the invisible hand of the market.

you mean, of course, the naked face of capital

 

[Bah]

I doubt Cainarsky even make games anymore. They've already transitioned to elder shaman roles where they "tutor" the young and pass or fail their work.

And we can still judge them by the works they pass on. If they don't want their names dragged into the mud, then they should not play in the dirt.

 

[FeelTheRads]

No, fuck you, commie retard. I am still (begrudgingly) respecting them, but since you went safe-space lesbian again babbling about respect then I will do the exact opposite. Just out of spite for safe-space lesbians like you.
Fuck you and your pathetic begging for respect.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ok, great. But this doesn't happen with creative professions, they're never forced to retire. And I'm happy for them. But that doesn't mean they're the same men that they once were some fifteen years ago. You, as a fan, need realize, understand and respect the fact that they're past their prime. If this had been a two man sport, they would've been done 15 years ago.

I don't think that "past their prime" can be applied to game design. Obsidian isn't Interplay which could afford to keep afloat an entire RPG division and it isn't Troika which took creative risks and lost. They have to make Games That Sell enough to support two hundred employees, which requires a very different approach. By all accounts they were successful (second biggest launch after New Vegas which combined two major brands - Fallout and Bethesda).

Age is not an excuse. Look at Vault Dweller. He's a grumpy grognard and after delivering AoD he's setting to surpass himself with the next title. What they grew is complacent, not old.

AoD sold 200k copies in 4 years, which was an unexpected success. If Colony Ship sells 400-500k in 4 years it will be a major success. For a company the size of Obsidian such numbers would be a major disaster. So as before, the bigger a company gets, the less risks it can take. Plus you can't say that Tim Cain and Boyarsky haven't tried. Arcanum was a great RPG but it sold 234k copies back when Troika was still around.