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Decline 90s and early 00s games had so much style, wtf happened

Vic

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In the 80s and 90s the guys making the games were also the guys who ran the game companies. They were passionate about the quality of the products.

By the late 90s the guys running the companies were outsiders who didn't care about the games or sellouts who didn't care anymore. The only passion was for adding zeroes to paychecks.

I think this is it, as someone who sees this in every other part of my life. Corporations just suck the soul out of everything. Publically trade ones, exponentially more so. Even if they wanted to do something creative, they can't. It's literally illegal to not make the most money possible for shareholders, which means groupthink and lowest common denominator bullshit.
that's why you shouldn't bother with AAA slop like assassin's creed or call of duty or whatever. lots and lots of good games made by smaller teams today. if you can't see it you're a fake gamer lol k
 

Silverfish

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Moreover, while there certainly are a lot of good games being made independently, how many of those boil down to "legally distinct version of older title"? Whereas, way back when, even sticking to a formula as straightforward as first-person shooter could yield results as varied as Quake, Timespiltters, Half-Life and Halo.
 

Ash

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lots and lots of good games made by smaller teams today
Yes but it's not quite at the level we used to have.

None of these new games surpass the classics.
surpass how? for you? that's your personal opinion. there's no metric that we can look at objectively here
Eh.

There is measurable metric.

-How buggy on release compared to industry standard?
-How much gameplay depth compared to other games?
-How much innovation and originality?
-Game length: is it a 5 hour game with zero replayability, or a 20 hour with lots of replayability?
-Does the game have SOUL. Which essentially translates to how much observable love and effort went into the project.
-Is the game engaging? e.g challenging, interesting, fun.
-Is there overarching cohesion: do all the elements compliment each other, does everything have purpose?

Yeah each of these things don't exist in a vacuum, there is some subjectivity involved, overall quality counts the most, but only fools think everything in this world is 100% subjective.
 
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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
there's no metric that we can look at objectively here
To specifically address this point: Yes, games can be rated objectively.

You can analyze a game's systemic complexity and how well the systems interact with each other.
You can analyze the flow of level design, the sheer size of a level, and how much content there is to discover in it.
You can analyze a game's story from a storyfag point of view - and yes, storytelling also has objective qualities: pacing, structure, prose quality.

And objectively speaking, many classic games of the past are still unsurpassed in certain aspects.
The stealth systems of Thief are objectively the best: sound propagation, light and darkness mechanics, etc. Its AI is pretty rudimentary from a modern perspective and very easy to trick, but the underlying systems are excellent. No other game even attempts to emulate Thief's light and shadow based stealth, and for some reason no game since managed to have as tight of a sound propagation.

I like RPGs with complex skill and equipment systems, and from a point of sheer quantity, nothing modern comes close to Morrowind. It has a whopping 16 equipment slots, including the ability to wear clothes underneath armor, where your average modern RPG just has one slot each for head, chest, legs. Also the variety of weapons: you had swords, axes, maces, spears, bows, crossbows, throwing weapons... nowadays you usually just get bows for ranged weapons, that's it, and spears are even rarer.

I also like choices & consequences, and while those have become more popular recently, the sheer quality and quantity of Arcanum's C&C is unsurpassed. This game's C&C isn't as heavily telegraphed as in modern games, and goes beyond being a simple forced binary choice at a specific moment of the story. The steam engine quest in Shrouded Hills is a perfect example. No modern RPG comes close.

In strategy games, I love a simulationist approach to combat, but those have declined too. Total War's battles peaked with Rome 1 and Medieval 2, modern iterations of the series don't even try anymore, the combat system has been horribly dumbed down. My beloved castle building sim Stronghold has been stuck in the sad limbo of trying to replicate the first game's success but always falling short. And even the new Men of War sequel is worse than its direct predecessors. It's weird how many games had excellent entries in the past, but their sequels lower the bar instead of raising it. Why would I play the newest game in a series when the older one is better? Many such cases, especially in strategy games.

All of these observations are based on objective, quantifiable criteria. Thief's stealth systems are the best ever made, nothing surpasses them. Deus Ex's level design is objectively great, few games even come close. There's no subjectivity here. It's all facts.
 

Vic

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You can analyze a game's systemic complexity and how well the systems interact with each other.
You can analyze the flow of level design, the sheer size of a level, and how much content there is to discover in it.
You can analyze a game's story from a storyfag point of view - and yes, storytelling also has objective qualities: pacing, structure, prose quality.
yes but what I said was directed at you saying new games do not surpass old games. the fact that morrowind has left/right bracer as opposed to just bracer doesn't make it objectively better. all items come in pairs anyways iirc so there was no reason to add that extra inventory clutter. you think you have no opinions only facts but you just stated a bunch of opinions and erroneous facts in regards to new games. in other words, your whole post is biased to make old games look better than they were and new games worse than they are.

I also like
In strategy games, I love

that's not fact dude

there's no metric that we can look at objectively here

You will never get it
I get it, it's called nostalgia.
 
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Vic

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it's called nostalgia

Invented by normies to help them cope with their poor taste

dude, do you know how many people were shitting on morrowind and other games of the 90s because the switch to 3D was considered major decline, which I agree with. Early 3D was shit, and now we see more and more games doing 2D or 2.5D because that graphic whore shit is standing in the way of good gameplay. And no morrowind's gameplay was shit. Only good thing was the setting and that was for the most part carried by kirkbride.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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you think you have no opinions only facts but you just stated a bunch of opinions and erroneous facts in regards to new games. in other words, your whole post is biased to make old games look better than they were and new games worse than they are.
If my statements were just opinion and not fact, try to debunk them.

You can't.

Like, just prove me wrong by posting examples of games that surpass the specific features I listed.
 

Ash

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I think the people saying this guy is a troll were on to something. Morrowind isn't a 90s game, not a console game...I would still call it early 3D though. It came out in 2002 but had more 1999-2000 level of graphical quality. Level geometry was pretty advanced though actually, lots of smooth surfaces and overall quite complex/vast compared to 1995 era 3D geometry.

Also early 3D is literally peak game design, peak golden age. Deniers of this objective truth should be banned.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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dude, do you know how many people were shitting on morrowind and other games of the 90s because the switch to 3D was considered major decline

I still have gaming zines from 20+ years ago

Even if I get Alzheimers (and I won't) I can open them right now and read the reviews of Morrowind to you

Basically Morrowind was praised for its graphics and free-form exploration. People thought the sky and water looked amazing. It also had among the higher PC requirements back then
 

Vic

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dude, do you know how many people were shitting on morrowind and other games of the 90s because the switch to 3D was considered major decline

I still have gaming zines from 20+ years ago

Even if I get Alzheimers (and I won't) I can open them right now and read the reviews of Morrowind to you

Basically Morrowind was praised for its graphics and free-form exploration. It also had among the higher PC requirements back then

lmao Morrowind was a normie rpg that was loved by game journos much like Oblivion and Skyrim and each generation has a retard fight how the previous game was better. no it wasn't, you just have more experience with games so it's less "cool" and the flaws are more obvious. Oh and there are many flaws in Morrowind.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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"Normies" didn't exist back then. Because people actually had taste, and because gaming actually had a culture.

Unlike now, and unlike yourself.
 

Ash

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Morrowind is highly flawed. Kind of low-hanging fruit you bitch. Why not shit on other early 3D FP RPGs instead like Arx Fatalis, System Shock 2 & Deus Ex, which are still unsurpassed today? Faggot.
 

Lemming42

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Not trying to make a point regarding the current discussion, but does anyone have that magazine scan from 2001/2002 that was posted in another thread not long ago where Todd Howard says that the Xbox version of MW is the definitive one?

The quote's superb, it's like a prototype of "it just works", he manages to tacitly admit that the PC version might be busted under the guise of smooth-talk marketing speak.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Morrowind is highly flawed. Kind of low-hanging fruit you bitch. Why not shit on other early 3D FP RPGs instead like Arx Fatalis, System Shock 2 & Deus Ex, which are still unsurpassed today? Faggot.
He's not even criticizing Morrowind's features, he just says "it's overrated" and that's it. No actual argument behind it.
 

Zeriel

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Or the general decline in every sector; architecture, literature, music, games, etc.
Movies, culture, relationships, economy, privacy & freedom...

This is the only truth

Journalism, the internet, food quality, psychiatry, planned obsolescence of many products...

Shall we keep going?

The great decline.

Food is pumped full of garbage in the west, beware!
Psychiatric care, the new approach is apparently to just save money for themselves, close down the psych wards and dump em all on the streets!

It's not all bad though. I like the convenience of modern services and the fact everyday people aren't partying 24/7 and fucked out of their minds on hard drugs. Seriously, 80s and 90s were like one big degenerate party. Probably for the best the music went to shit if it inspired that level of societal breakdown.
Food isn't just full of garbage. They also remove grain/fiber because it makes you full. So you have to eat more before you're not hungry anymore. It's why our feces is runnier and in smaller pieces than in places where corporations don't get to mess with the food so much. Someone might say, "Well, people prefer this because it tastes better, so corporations are just meeting demand." People are stupid and a government should want to have a healthy, productive population. 40 percent Americans obese, 70 percent overweight is insane, a total indightment of free market thinking.

There's more to it than that. It's also sedentary living. Trust me, you can eat lots of junk food and still be in great shape... if you also are on your feet doing manual labor 10 hours a day. Conversely, you can eat all the "health food" in the world and diet and still be in worse shape if you sit on your ass doing office work (or no work at all) for the same amount of time.

Most of our ancestors, even in, say, the 1920s, worked with their hands and feet. The same can't be said of the obese nowadays. Occasionally I'll see a fat shit who does, but it's a lot rarer. And they're usually the ones who don't last.
 

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