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Chris Avellone needs help on romance

Azarkon

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Chris Avellone, of PST fame, has posted the following discussion on his blog:

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php ... &blogid=1&

So, I generally despise writing companion romances (I think unrequited and/or doomed ones are ultimately more dramatic), but there are some techniques I've accumulated over the years that I try to incorporate into writing and designing romances in RPGs.

A lot of these things came out while writing Gannayev-of-Dreams in Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, and I suppose it could hold true for other inter-party romances in games. What follows is a summary of some points we kicked around for how to foster romances with the PC.



Any suggestions or examples of other techniques that work would be welcome because us Obsidian folks (or at least me) aren't the romantic types.

Note: I'm going to cite examples from Season 1 of Lost a lot, so if the character examples below don't make sense to you, watch that and come back - although there's no spoilers below. I think. It's hard to tell with Lost what's a spoiler and what's not. Also, I haven't watched Lost past Season 2, so it's possible all the examples below are overturned in Season 3.

Anyway, here's how to foster romance between characters - part one, and subject to iteration.

* First, the NPC romantic interest must be good in combat or contributes effectively to a mission. It is much easier to like/love someone who fulfills an effective combat role in the party (Final Fantasy VI/Final Fantasy III was always my model for this). Kate from Lost, for example, pulls this off - she's a good tracker, good with a gun, and can handle herself in a fight for the most part.
* The NPC is not subservient to the player, but either equal or not quite his or her equal. Kate from Lost does not feel she’s worthy of Jack, but she can compete with him and give him a run for his money.
* At the same time, the romantic NPC has to be good at what they do - whether they are wizard, rogue, or whatever, it should be clear that the romance NPC is skilled at their profession. Slacking or whining is not an admirable romantic quality.
* The love interest doesn't have to like the PC, oddly enough, but it should be clear they admire or respect them for who they are, not what they can do. Regardless of Jack being a doctor, Kate thinks Jack’s heroic and ethical qualities are admirable.
* Independent. If the player wasn't around, the NPC would be able to act independently, and they can think for themselves. They don't always blindly agree with the player and only have a life when they are around. In game, you want to give them individual AI, opinions, disagree at times, discuss, etc. The player wants someone to care about, not a drone who nods all the time.
* At some point, the NPC love interest is willing to sacrifice something of some importance for the player for solely altruistic reasons. They may give up a weapon, a philosophical position, or something of value to them simply because their feelings for the player matters more.
* Intelligent and/or cunning.
* Witty. Again, Kate from Lost. Booksmart is fine, but you need someone you can banter with, not just recite physics formulas.
* R-E-S-P-E-C-T, not just for the PC for the NPC, but vice versa. The NPC doesn't behave condescendingly, doesn't throw games to let the player win, subdue their own abilities to make the player shine - they respect the player enough to not treat them subserviently. At the beginning of the romance, this may not be the case, but later on, it should be clear the NPC feels the PC can stand on their own two feet, and the NPC respects them. They don't have to agree all the time, but they don't think the player's a dummy.
* Good VO, as I'm sure you know. The right voice actor can make or break a romantic interest immediately.
* This is personal preference, but I would always err on keeping "the chase" going, and have no consummation until the end of the game, if at all - again, I advocate no consummation (I've seen it kill Cheers and Moonlighting among others), but that gets some players pretty upset. Keep the player guessing as to the NPC feelings, even if the hints seem pretty obvious - this makes for good drama.
* Some admirable quality in the romantic NPC. For example (and not to say that I'm in love with Dr. Doom), Dr. Doom in the Marvel Comics, for all his bad guy megalomania, is obviously (1) smart, (2) is devoted to the people of his country, and (3) is constantly looking for a way to save his mother from hell. For a bad guy, these are some pretty admirable qualities beyond just conquering the world.
* The romantic NPC should be picky, it's obvious he/she has high standards. In Planescape: Torment, we made it pretty clear that Annah and Fall-From-Grace didn't express interest in just anyone, and the player was the only one out of thousands that ever piqued their interest.
* Attractive. Note that this is hard to do (we've had to constantly iterate romantic visual concepts, and it's just as hard as finding the voice actor), so what I've found is best is (1) let the player make the call, but even better, (2) make sure you seed the world with people who remark on how attractive/intelligent/witty the female or male NPC is - the power of suggestion and rivalry can reinforce to a PC that the NPC is an object to be desired. For example, AGAIN WITH THE @#$!@$ LOST, Sawyer fulfills this role with Kate (and he is a romantic rival as well).


That’s all I got for now. Any advice on what you guys think works and doesn't is welcome - I could use it.

At first glance, a list to make Japanese date-sim fans cry themselves to sleep - I can't imagine how Chris thinks to attract that crowd with phrases like "intelligent," "independent," and "not subservient." Fortunately, he's not writing for date-sim fans, but RPG geeks who want some date-sim in their games. I guess that makes it an alright list, actually.

In any case, based on what Chris is saying, I reckon that the romances in NWN 2 (or lack thereof) weren't necessarily a time issue, after all. Odd though it maybe that the man who worked on Annah and FFG would have trouble writing romances, I guess they fit into that whole "doomed" mold that Chris is more comfortable with, and the type called for by NWN 2: MoTB are more along the lines of steamy love novels. So, if you've always been the romantic type, or shed a tear for Aeris in FF7, head on over to Chris's blog and post your suggestions on how to give NWN 2 that date-sim edge it so desperately craves.
 

aboyd

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The only comment I have is to mention my reaction to his statement that romances must not have "consummation" until the end of the game, if at all. My reaction was, "That's stupid. Even mainstream shows like Friends had the characters successfully enter relationships. Chandler and Monica had possibly the most interesting dynamic on the show." Other shows seemed to work fine, too. And in BG2, if you pursued Viconia, she slept with you pretty early on, and then you were basically a marauding couple for the rest of the game. It was actually kind of nice.

I don't think unrequited love is very interesting.
 

Volrath

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Yeah but Viconia was a slut and doesn't count.

I'm not big on the whole romance in RPG's thing, but that's just me.
 

Zomg

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The white haired girl in K2 is pretty similar to Annah; some gal that's fascinated by the PC for not much narrative reason who is completely supine before the PC's will. I think the male romance character for a female PC in KotOR2 works the same way. Then there's the blind girl, too, which goes past supine into puppet territory. Other examples... the ghoul girl in VtMB, the wing girl in BG2, probably more. So, you could call those the master-slave romances. That's not meant pejoratively, necessarily, as they're often either meaningful or thematic in context.

Realistically, party romance NPC are always going to be de facto slaves, since they trail around the PC like dogs and do more or less as he commands. So, I recommend more master-slave relationships, because they make sense in the party idiom.
 
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Why does romance have to be a nice thing? A positive thing? I think a traitorous, two-faced, liar using you to further her own career would be far more interesting than some sappy nonsense.

EDIT: This seems like a really good idea.....I might file this one away for later use if my project ever gets anywhere close to off the ground.
 

Müg

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Edward_R_Murrow said:
Why does romance have to be a nice thing? A positive thing? I think a traitorous, two-faced, liar using you to further her own career would be far more interesting than some sappy nonsense.

EDIT: This seems like a really good idea.....I might file this one away for later use if my project ever gets anywhere close to off the ground.
Manipulative females (and males I suppose), the option to manipulate others via sexual or romantic means, and abusive relationships (aside from the occasionally used parental abuse) including friendships and such, is a brilliant idea. A dark one to be sure, but still.
Also, whether you seemed 'whipped' or not in public could affect your image. At this point we're getting a bit over the top, though.
 
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Another thing I don't get....why no gold-diggers? Especially in fantasy adventures and such. You come into town and sell off all your monty haul, how come some women (or men...) don't say something like "Why don't you ditch that whiny elf cripple and get yourself a real woman?" Definitely would add to the "realism" and might be interesting. I mean, in "our world" just about every rich guy has a trophy wife (or two) and might have a few gold-digging mistresses. Why can't a rich as can be adventurer have some? Are fantasy people just retarded?
 

Texas Red

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There shouldnt be any romances in RPGs because the majority of hardcore RPG fans cant relate to them due to absence of experience in real life.
 

kris

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Azarkon said:
At first glance, a list to make Japanese date-sim fans cry themselves to sleep - I can't imagine how Chris thinks to attract that crowd with phrases like "intelligent," "independent," and "not subservient." Fortunately, he's not writing for date-sim fans, but RPG geeks who want some date-sim in their games. I guess that makes it an alright list, actually.

:D the list is pretty good for westerners in general, at least the ones with a brain.

Now I understand what MCA is saying about keeping the romance going without a "I love you forever and ever" finish. But it can be kept interesting with ups and downs, an old love coming up, a third party trying to seduce the PC and so on.

Although best ever would be the female love interest admitting late on that she actually is a man, but had a operation. :D
 

Volourn

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"There shouldnt be any romances in RPGs because the majority of hardcore RPG fans cant relate to them due to absence of experience in real life."

There shouldn't be 50s style in RPGs because most hardcore RPG fans can't relate them due to absence of experience in real life.
 

Hazelnut

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The Walkin' Dude said:
There shouldnt be any romances in RPGs because the majority of hardcore RPG fans cant relate to them due to absence of experience in real life.

What's it like seeing the world as a bunch of stereotypes?
 

RGE

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Edward_R_Murrow said:
I mean, in "our world" just about every rich guy has a trophy wife (or two) and might have a few gold-digging mistresses. Why can't a rich as can be adventurer have some? Are fantasy people just retarded?
Those golddiggers would then stay in the safety of some town, I assume? Because I don't see them wanting to truly join the PC in some nightmarish struggle against forces that are trying to destroy the world. In fact, just being associated with the PC could probably get them killed or kidnapped by the PCs enemies, which are guaranteed to be numerous and evil. You often give such good career advice? :wink:

I don't think that a CRPG love interest need to be "intelligent," "independent," and "not subservient". Sure, it would probably be nice if they were all these things, but in HotU my halfling bard is dragging Deekin around just because the little guy amuses me. If there instead was an equally stupid, dependent and subservient slut/princess to drag around, I could see myself ditching the tiefling tank in favour of her. Particularly if she never stopped complaining about how awful the underdark is, and how she really just want to go back topside. Because that's how my bard feels about the whole deal. Why he'd ever want to have some kind of romance with a reasonable, boring and useless drow like Nathyrra is beyond me.

In short, I think that a love interest just needs to have sex appeal and a personality, and just as with everything else, that personality might not appeal to everyone. But designing love interests according to target audience seems futile. Besides, shouldn't they just hire Sharon Shellman? Why wouldn't she be the one to write stuff like that? Worked quite well in Arcanum, I thought.
 

Ladonna

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SPOILERS FOR NWN2 ROMANCE!!! :lol:

The romance in NWN2 with the Evil Ranger...Or Eyeliner boy as I call him, has him basically attempting to get the PC to do things more to his way, and then he betrays you at the end. Sort of.

If you kept doing the things he likes, and telling him what he wants to hear, he actually counter betrays the guy he was working for but still heads off into the sunset (Uh, into the dungeon?).

I wonder if he will pop up in the addon...He wasn't around when the rocks h-....uh, the shit hit the fan at the end.
 

RK47

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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Spacemoose said:
gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
homo.jpg
 

RK47

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Ladonna said:
SPOILERS FOR NWN2 ROMANCE!!! :lol:

The romance in NWN2 with the Evil Ranger...Or Eyeliner boy as I call him, has him basically attempting to get the PC to do things more to his way, and then he betrays you at the end. Sort of.

If you kept doing the things he likes, and telling him what he wants to hear, he actually counter betrays the guy he was working for but still heads off into the sunset (Uh, into the dungeon?).

I wonder if he will pop up in the addon...He wasn't around when the rocks h-....uh, the shit hit the fan at the end.

You don't have to romance him. You just have to do things his way and he'll pull the same shit in the end. I bet there's more of that planned but Obsidian is great at finishing games this way. Very original. The ending rocks
 

RK47

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Edward_R_Murrow said:
Why does romance have to be a nice thing? A positive thing? I think a traitorous, two-faced, liar using you to further her own career would be far more interesting than some sappy nonsense.

EDIT: This seems like a really good idea.....I might file this one away for later use if my project ever gets anywhere close to off the ground.

I agree with you. I like that in a game, it gives me motivation. Imagine if some nerd is playing it the straight path, giving money, buying armor weapons for this NPC and she just turned out to be an assassin sent to kill him. It's worth the :shock: look on their face. Then imagine the forum drama when he poured his heart out for sympathy. :lol:

But, I'd like it if there are hints of betrayal. A doubt that slowly creeps to the player, this will make 'unconditional trust' less cheesy. I personally abhor the 'correct way to play romance' type. If I don't like their ways of doing things, I'd like to convince people otherwise, instead I get lowered influence. Sigh. Whatever, eat my fireballs. :twisted:
 

Hümmelgümpf

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Ladonna said:
If you kept doing the things he likes, and telling him what he wants to hear, he actually counter betrays the guy he was working for but still heads off into the sunset (Uh, into the dungeon?).
As I recall, one of Bishop's super-exclusive-for-female-ears-only lines during the final confrontation is commented in dialog.tlk as "The closest thing to confession in love he has ever said".
 

RGE

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RK47 said:
I agree with you. I like that in a game, it gives me motivation. Imagine if some nerd is playing it the straight path, giving money, buying armor weapons for this NPC and she just turned out to be an assassin sent to kill him. It's worth the :shock: look on their face. Then imagine the forum drama when he poured his heart out for sympathy. :lol:
And for replay value and general forum confusion it could be mostly random if the NPC chooses to betray or to stay loyal.

And if I could grow a uterus I'd have Deekin's scaly little babies. Because comedians are the great lovers. I saw that on Seinfeld. They're like the American version of Russian gymnasts. Mmm. Russian gymnasts. Rraarrgh...
 

mytgroo

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Elizabeth Lowell is actually a pretty good writer, mostly bestsellers, she also writes mysteries under A.N. Maxwell, and she wrote a science fiction romance called Name of A Shadow which was nominated for the Hugo Award. There are a few cross genre romance writers who also write mysteries which are fairly good. There are also a bunch of successful fantasy romance type things. Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake vampire hunter -- she is into both a werewolf and a vampire. A lot of the Darkover novels had a fairly strong romantic flair to them. Tanith Lee's Silver Metal Lover has a fairly strong romance in it. Robert Heinlein's The Door Into Summer, Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword all have a fairly strong romantic plot line in them. There are quite a few excellent fantasy novels with a romantic sub plot in them. Recently Guy Gavriel Kay wrote an excellent novel Ysabel. These are mostly fantasy and science fiction.
 

mytgroo

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You have to wonder why they don't put the proper Conan subtext in most RPGs. The reason Conan has no money, also Grey Mouser and Faffrd is that they are spending all their fat loot on getting laid and getting drunk.
 

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