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Confirmed. Skrym scales to your level

sgc_meltdown

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May 8, 2003
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I'm tired of just enemies scaling to my level

what about romance

at level one I want some giggling and maybe a bit of hair teasing

at level ten it should be full blown dating for hours

at level twenty we share beds in a mature fashion at night consensually

at level thirty threesomes are unlocked

at level fifty radiant romance perk is activated with attractive females of my favorite race determined by my character's history throwing themselves at me at night and giving me expensive gifts next morning

but it shouldn't be uniform so some out of the way areas have consensual bed sharing available immediately to encourage creativity and exploration

:thumbsup:
 
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Dionysus said:
I think open-world games are precisely the sort of games that can benefit from some level scaling. Nothing sucks worse than finding a town that is practically useless to you because you were "supposed" to go there at level 1. And that sort of thing is most likely to happen in an open-world game. More linear games don't need it because it's easier to coordinate the level of challenge and the character's level.

Well, open world games probably shouldn't have character/equipment systems in place that have enormous gulfs of effectiveness between start and endgame. That isn't a great way to design things if you have the objective of making all areas have content suitable for characters of all levels. Certainly, you can "bandage" this in a lot of ways, level scaling a la Bethesda one method among many. However, certain methods won't tend to work very well, including the aforementioned Bethesda-esque level scaling. It's a blunt tool, and rather lazy design that shows in the fact that The Elder Scrolls is a very bland gameplay experience overall.

I'd propose that there are better ways, more sophisticated methods. Broadly, they may fit under the notion of "level scaling", but I think they're different enough to be described as distinct from the way the Codex understands the term "level scaling".

First, design areas a little more intelligently. For example, a cave home to a tribe of goblins might be a good fit for a low level character, but a poor match for a higher caliber adventurer. A designer who wants a cheap solution would just scale the goblins as a solution to this problem. We saw things like this in Oblivion in which goblins just "ranked up" as the player character leveled up. A better idea would involve a bit more of an in-depth approach to designing areas. Make the goblin tribe a fixed encounter, one that low level characters will find appropriate, but add more to their lair. Maybe they do ritual sacrifices, throwing livestock and villagers captured in raids down some sort of pit. A pit that low level characters won't be able to get to the bottom of. And at the bottom of the pit is some sort of critter(s) more appropriate to a high level character who is able to find their way safely to the bottom of the pit. Maybe a demon, a dragon, or some other foul beastie. The main idea here is to make some sort of passive (read: not openly hostile....not sure if this is the best choice of words, but whatever) barrier to lower level characters in areas initially suited for them that high level characters will be able to pass through and find content more appropriate to them if they don't show up at the "right time". It also has the bonus effect of giving lower level characters a taste of mystery, a bit of a hook to come back and further explore when they've progressed a bit more.

Second, employ more sophisticated schemes of level scaling. Forget the hack job done in most games just swapping out lower rank critters for higher rank ones, that's not very fun, not very interesting either. Try something a bit more sophisticated, maybe scaling events and quests to character levels. Let us suppose an example town. A character strolls in at low level, the game recognizes this, and then only makes certain quests available. We'll say these are typical "low level" affairs (easy combat, low-threshold skill checks, low rewards, etc). The player continues adventuring, and after accumulating more experience, and leveling up a bit, are informed of new quests available, maybe by letter or by a messenger. They can go there and do those quests then. These might be more difficult endeavors with more tricky combat, skill checks that require a bit of specialization, and appropriately scaled awards. Maybe there will even be a third or fourth tier of quests available upon leveling up. And the other thing required for this would be to unlock the quests immediately for characters who show up in our hypothetical settlement at a higher level. This serves not only to "scale" areas better to characters, making them less "useless" to characters of varying levels, but also to make for a simple way of showing the passage of time in the world, having more problems develop in places as the player character adventures on.

However, both these proposed methods aren't perfect. Again, they're only "bandages", they will still have a lot of problems. For one, over-reliance on these things breaks verisimilitude. If you find demons, dragons, and liches behind some sort of "level door" in every goblin den, orc cave, and kobold city things seem a bit artificial. The pitfall of the second method is that the world seems to revolve around the character too much, breaking any sense that this isn't just a virtual playground.

At a point, we realize scaling methods of any sort are a bandage that is used to shore things up when a developer wants to create an open world game, use a system with excessive character/equipment progression, and have the areas all seem useful to all levels. All three objectives can only be met with a significant amount of "bandaging", often through different methods of scaling. As mentioned in the start of the post, it's easier to merely design a system of character/equipment progression with less of a gulf between start and finish in order to satisfy the objective of open world exploring with content suitable for most every character. You still will likely need some bandaging through level scaling, but nothing as blunt, and frankly, stupid, as Bethesda-esque universal scaling.
 

betamin

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I opened the video just to see the girls and wow it did not dissapoint :lol:
 

thesheeep

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And that, dear children, is why having a mandatory health insurance -so everyone, even near-broke journalists, can take care of his/her teeth- is a good thing.
But, besides of that, I really don't think she's ugly (she-beast? wtf?). Could make more of her, though, and I'm not talking about massive cosmetics. Make-up sucks.

And about the topic:
I don't give a shit about level scaling. Worked well in F:NV. Does that even have level scaling? I don't even know, and if I didn't notice, it's certainly a good sign that it can work out well.
 

Shannow

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Edward_R_Murrow said:
First, design areas a little more intelligently. For example, a cave home to a tribe of goblins might be a good fit for a low level character, but a poor match for a higher caliber adventurer. A designer who wants a cheap solution would just scale the goblins as a solution to this problem. We saw things like this in Oblivion in which goblins just "ranked up" as the player character leveled up. A better idea would involve a bit more of an in-depth approach to designing areas. Make the goblin tribe a fixed encounter, one that low level characters will find appropriate, but add more to their lair. Maybe they do ritual sacrifices, throwing livestock and villagers captured in raids down some sort of pit. A pit that low level characters won't be able to get to the bottom of. And at the bottom of the pit is some sort of critter(s) more appropriate to a high level character who is able to find their way safely to the bottom of the pit. Maybe a demon, a dragon, or some other foul beastie. The main idea here is to make some sort of passive (read: not openly hostile....not sure if this is the best choice of words, but whatever) barrier to lower level characters in areas initially suited for them that high level characters will be able to pass through and find content more appropriate to them if they don't show up at the "right time". It also has the bonus effect of giving lower level characters a taste of mystery, a bit of a hook to come back and further explore when they've progressed a bit more.
I've heard that called "Meat Shield"/"Meat Wall". Gothic did it.

Second, employ more sophisticated schemes of level scaling. Forget the hack job done in most games just swapping out lower rank critters for higher rank ones, that's not very fun, not very interesting either. Try something a bit more sophisticated, maybe scaling events and quests to character levels. Let us suppose an example town. A character strolls in at low level, the game recognizes this, and then only makes certain quests available. We'll say these are typical "low level" affairs (easy combat, low-threshold skill checks, low rewards, etc). The player continues adventuring, and after accumulating more experience, and leveling up a bit, are informed of new quests available, maybe by letter or by a messenger. They can go there and do those quests then. These might be more difficult endeavors with more tricky combat, skill checks that require a bit of specialization, and appropriately scaled awards. Maybe there will even be a third or fourth tier of quests available upon leveling up. And the other thing required for this would be to unlock the quests immediately for characters who show up in our hypothetical settlement at a higher level. This serves not only to "scale" areas better to characters, making them less "useless" to characters of varying levels, but also to make for a simple way of showing the passage of time in the world, having more problems develop in places as the player character adventures on.
FO2 (and probably lots of others used that).
I don't see how those two could be considered "scaling".

However, both these proposed methods aren't perfect. Again, they're only "bandages", they will still have a lot of problems. For one, over-reliance on these things breaks verisimilitude. If you find demons, dragons, and liches behind some sort of "level door" in every goblin den, orc cave, and kobold city things seem a bit artificial.
Then don't over-use it/use it intelligently. What's the problem?

At a point, we realize scaling methods of any sort are a bandage that is used to shore things up when a developer wants to create an open world game, use a system with excessive character/equipment progression, and have the areas all seem useful to all levels. All three objectives can only be met with a significant amount of "bandaging", often through different methods of scaling. As mentioned in the start of the post, it's easier to merely design a system of character/equipment progression with less of a gulf between start and finish in order to satisfy the objective of open world exploring with content suitable for most every character. You still will likely need some bandaging through level scaling, but nothing as blunt, and frankly, stupid, as Bethesda-esque universal scaling.
While I agree that a system that doesn't have a huge gap between a noob and an experienced player (I think JA(2) achieved this best while making stats and equipment still matter) is the best choice (not only in open worlds), but making each and every part of the open world be usefull for any "level" is counter-RPG and counter-exploration. I don't see how anybody could want to achieve all three and think it's good design (apart from modern devs, but they are only hand-puppets of moronic suits)...
 

Wyrmlord

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WhiskeyWolf said:
God, how I loath level-scaling. It's the worst mechanic a video-game can have.
Good to know that so many of the Codex's most beloved RPGs have "the worst mechanic a video-game can have." ;)
 

RK47

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thesheeep said:
And that, dear children, is why having a mandatory health insurance -so everyone, even near-broke journalists, can take care of his/her teeth- is a good thing.
But, besides of that, I really don't think she's ugly (she-beast? wtf?). Could make more of her, though, and I'm not talking about massive cosmetics. Make-up sucks.

And about the topic:
I don't give a shit about level scaling. Worked well in F:NV. Does that even have level scaling? I don't even know, and if I didn't notice, it's certainly a good sign that it can work out well.

New Vegas level scaling was almost unnoticed. Starting a new playthrough as a gunner at lvl 6, Radscorpions would still rape me hard.
 

commie

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Lower the speed at which you gain levels, have a low level cap. This way even at level 5 out of 10 you might find some level 1-2 mobs tough if they surprise you when you're low on spells or there's a lot of them. At the same time, going up a level will once again be a major event that seems to really improve your character unlike these days with unlimited or very high level caps which end up adding 20 HP to a 150 HP character and give an extra 5% chance to hit.

I remember the earlier Gold Box games had limited leveling, and it both made you feel like a GOD going from level 1 to 2, almost doubling your HP for some characters, adding spells etc. yet it still made Kobolds tough if you were reckless and attacked a large force.

I also don't mind ignoring an area only to come back later to find it populated by level 1 fodder with almost worthless loot. That's the price of going off and doing something differently; by trying to tackle a tougher area first with all the risk and the rewards, you are making a conscious decision to try and gain a substantial advantage over the creeps in a game and if it then means that coming back to a dungeon that was meant to be for a beginner party and finding the challenge gone and the loot useless, then it's a choice you made yourself. If you want that level 1 dungeon to be useful, then go there at level 1!


Ed123 said:
Part of it was that equipment was arguably more important than stats and you could find high-level stuff at any level.

This. With FO3 at level 2 I found the Firelance and at level 4 I went to Mothership Zeta. After grabbing all these Alien weapons, I was pretty much one shot killing my way through much of the game except for the behemoths and some of the other stuff the MMM mod added. Gaining in levels and getting perks was of minor benefit and even slowed massively with FWE it still made little difference. I still died quickly if surprised at level 16 as at level 5, and I killed things just as quickly. The weapon quality is the big thing in Bethesda games. In Gothic it was a real struggle to find and get your hands on the better weapons, and they needed quite decent prerequisites as well, but here?
 

DragoFireheart

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Wyrmlord said:
WhiskeyWolf said:
God, how I loath level-scaling. It's the worst mechanic a video-game can have.
Good to know that so many of the Codex's most beloved RPGs have "the worst mechanic a video-game can have." ;)

What level scaling did F:NV have? Fuck, I don't think I've seen ANY level scaling in that game. Giant Radscorpions are hanging out north of the starting area: further north are Cazadores of all sizes. East of there are Deathclaws that will kick the living shit out of nearly any character until level 20+. I don't think I've seen any enemies have better weapons at higher levels: Viper Gangers always have an assortment of Cowboy Repeaters, 10mm Pistols and Grenade Rifles.
 

Mastermind

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DragoFireheart said:
Wyrmlord said:
WhiskeyWolf said:
God, how I loath level-scaling. It's the worst mechanic a video-game can have.
Good to know that so many of the Codex's most beloved RPGs have "the worst mechanic a video-game can have." ;)

What level scaling did F:NV have? Fuck, I don't think I've seen ANY level scaling in that game. Giant Radscorpions are hanging out north of the starting area: further north are Cazadores of all sizes. East of there are Deathclaws that will kick the living shit out of nearly any character until level 20+. I don't think I've seen any enemies have better weapons at higher levels: Viper Gangers always have an assortment of Cowboy Repeaters, 10mm Pistols and Grenade Rifles.

Enemies do get better weapons at higher levels. Not everything is scaled but some things are.
 

curry

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DragoFireheart said:
What level scaling did F:NV have? Fuck, I don't think I've seen ANY level scaling in that game. Giant Radscorpions are hanging out north of the starting area: further north are Cazadores of all sizes. East of there are Deathclaws that will kick the living shit out of nearly any character until level 20+. I don't think I've seen any enemies have better weapons at higher levels: Viper Gangers always have an assortment of Cowboy Repeaters, 10mm Pistols and Grenade Rifles.

Really? You didn't see any Vipers or Powder Gangers armed with energy weapons?
 

Mastermind

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Tel Velothi said:
I don't know ANY type and ANY form of level scaling that is good. Am I wrong?

It was fine in BG2 when higher levels would spawn better monsters in some dungeons.
 

Marobug

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thesheeep said:
But, besides of that, I really don't think she's ugly

Man, all I can tell you is you really need to pay a visit to your ophthalmologist.
She's a complete trainwreck, if she's not ugly then I'm johnny depp and brad pitt's bastard child.
 

DragoFireheart

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curry said:
DragoFireheart said:
Really? You didn't see any Vipers or Powder Gangers armed with energy weapons?

-Truly. Only fiends run around with energy weapons among the raider groups.

Powder Gangers have varmint rifles, 9mm, single shotgun.

Vipers have 10mm pistol, cowboy repeater, maybe a 9mm submachine gun and grenade rifles.


Mastermind said:
Enemies do get better weapons at higher levels. Not everything is scaled but some things are.

-Then please give me some examples because I have not seen ANYTHING level scaling of any sort. I mentioned Honest Hearts but I'm talking about vanilla New Vegas.
 

Junmarko

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Fuck. Bethesda are losing the plot. Im suprised its called Skyrim and not just 'Oblivion II'. That smirk on his face at the end really pissed me off when he finished by saying 'we have over 50 beards hehe...' Amour is now helmet, amour and boots, but there are 50 beards...wow...wow..
 

Mastermind

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DragoFireheart said:
Mastermind said:
DragoFireheart said:
-Then please give me some examples because I have not seen ANYTHING level scaling of any sort. I mentioned Honest Hearts but I'm talking about vanilla New Vegas.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_3 ... r_level.3F

Off the top of my head Black Mountain is one of those places.


That links to the Fallout 3 FAQ.

:rage:

You're right. I misread it. That said:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vulpes_Inculta
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Lanius
Haven't been able to find specific info on generic enemies, but these two are scaled.

edit: from sawyer's formspring:
Why doesn't the NCR properly supply squads? You will find a squad of, say, 7 soldiers, and they will ALL be using the Service Rifle. Did you ever consider having proper layouts, like 4 Service Rifles, 1 LMG, 1 Grenade Rifle, and 1 Hunting rifle?

From a story perspective, NCR doesn't properly supply squads due to bureaucratic inefficiency. From a balance perspective, we don't want players gaining easy access to high end weapons like LMGs in the early game, so most of the troopers the player encounters early on have pretty low-end weapons. The NCR and Legion troops with high end weapons don't even spawn in the world until a certain story state has been hit. That's when you'll start seeing Veteran Rangers with Brush Guns, NCR Heavy Troopers with LMGs, Legion Centurions with Chainsaws, and Legion Assassins with 12.7mm Pistols/SMGs.
 

DragoFireheart

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I wouldn't call that level scaling. When I think level scaling, i think of rats in a dungeon being replaced by Deathclaws 20 levels later. Or Raiders in Power Armor 15 levels later. Stupid shit like that. In any case, level scaling is nearly non-existent in New Vegas.
 

baronjohn

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Mastermind said:
From a story perspective, NCR doesn't properly supply squads due to bureaucratic inefficiency. From a balance perspective, we don't want players gaining easy access to high end weapons like LMGs in the early game, so most of the troopers the player encounters early on have pretty low-end weapons. The NCR and Legion troops with high end weapons don't even spawn in the world until a certain story state has been hit. That's when you'll start seeing Veteran Rangers with Brush Guns, NCR Heavy Troopers with LMGs, Legion Centurions with Chainsaws, and Legion Assassins with 12.7mm Pistols/SMGs.
That's not level-scaling you dumbfuck. That's... story-scaling. Which isn't even a real thing.
 
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Marobug said:
thesheeep said:
But, besides of that, I really don't think she's ugly

Man, all I can tell you is you really need to pay a visit to your ophthalmologist.
She's a complete trainwreck, if she's not ugly then I'm johnny depp and brad pitt's bastard child.

Ashley Cheng is a MAN, dumbasses.

The interviewer is female, I think.
 

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