DF Adventure Mode overhaul - discussion

[nuclearglow]

Since most codexers are right noiw apparently playing FO:NV or, such as it seems, are busy installing mods that add more grass to the apocalyptic wastelands, I wanted to invite interested bystanders to discuss the forthcoming DF adventure mode which will sport an extensive overhaul. Check it out: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html.

Now I've been busy immersing myself into the DF strategy mode which is plainly off-topic here, but the adventure mode seems to lead straight into a roguelike or even rpg. basic rpg stuff is already there, but the upcoming classes, the dialogue-system and quests are somehow intriguing.

DF world generation works with pure procedurally generated landscapes and, more importantly, a world history simulation up to 1000 years including the spawning of legends. When entering the world the generation of quests appear to rely solely on the pre-generated surroundings, which, if incorporated in a clever way, might mean cohesiveness and thus maybe fun to play.

Or we just broaden the discussion: Does an immersive and fun RPG need a carefully crafted storyline, dialogues - which are nowadays manually set or might it also be achieved by a procedurally generated world which happens to incorporate enough variables to make it believable ?

Discuss.

 

[Destroid]

Certainly it could make for a fun dungeon crawler. Diablo and Diablo 2 are often praised for their procedural generation of dungeons and most roguelikes try to be nothing more than dungeon crawlers (although often with large survival components).

Another game that bears comparison is Darklands, which I am pretty sure doesn't have a typical storyline but is a highly praised game (unfortunately I have not played it).

I should really play DF again, I think it's been about year since I last gave it serious play time.

 

[Haba]

DF adventure mode does not interest me in the least bit. There are tons of roguelikes that do much better in the normal dungeon romp experience. IMHO the effort spent on it is wasted. FFS, the main release still has major bugs left.

Toady needs to have a major cut in his donation rate, otherwise he'll just keep on doing whatever happens to feels nice at the moment.

Or we just broaden the discussion: Does an immersive and fun RPG need a carefully crafted storyline, dialogues - which are nowadays manually set or might it also be achieved by a procedurally generated world which happens to incorporate enough variables to make it believable ?

No... Immersion can be achieved through other means, fun can come from good combat system. See UnReal World.

 

[nuclearglow]

No... Immersion can be achieved through other means,...

Which means do you mean? That would interest me. What are the means to acvhieve an immersive perceptual reality?

...fun can come from good combat system.

Agree. But i.e. a realistic deed&consequence system can also be fun. Combat's not everything by half, in my opinion.

...Darklands...

haven't played it yet, too. Maybe I could give it a try.

 

[Haba]

No... Immersion can be achieved through other means,...

Which means do you mean? That would interest me. What are the means to acvhieve an immersive perceptual reality?

Varies greatly between individuals. I've rather good imagination, so with games in the 80's and early 90's, I found myself filling in the gaps with my own imagination. The games showed very little and told you even less, so you had to make up what was left untold.

I guess another factor is the internal coherence. The game world, no matter how fantastic, "makes sense". It has its own logic according to which it plays out. This is why UnReal World can be quite immersive even though there is no real story to unfold.

 

[Panthera]

I think the DF Adventure mode could really be a source of good, short stories. With the gameplay as lethal as it is, it'll be less about long-term play and the cliche rise through the levels and more about your saga of warfare, butchery, or hunting down the most powerful beasts in the land until you find the one that is your match.

I want him to keep pushing this. It's too simple to be more than a funny distraction right now, but looking at the power goals inspires me. Nobody else has the balls to actually work towards such a crazy design.

 

[Dragula]

Varies greatly between individuals. I've rather good imagination, so with games in the 80's and early 90's, I found myself filling in the gaps with my own imagination. The games showed very little and told you even less, so you had to make up what was left untold.

You must love larping through Oblivion then.

 

[nuclearglow]

Varies greatly between individuals. I've rather good imagination, so with games in the 80's and early 90's, I found myself filling in the gaps with my own imagination. The games showed very little and told you even less, so you had to make up what was left untold.

this.

I guess another factor is the internal coherence. The game world, no matter how fantastic, "makes sense". It has its own logic according to which it plays out. This is why UnReal World can be quite immersive even though there is no real story to unfold.

I read up a bit on Unreal world - it seems to share some similarities with the basic DF adventure mode. However, it appears that it might lack the social interaction with local societies (apart from hunters/other survivors). Assuming that DF provides possibilities for social integration into locally bound societies in a meaningful way, and even incorporates historical and social aspects which have impact on the encountered society's "rules" it could be a new development on how to simulate an environment in which to roleplay.

CRPGs nowadays try to achieve coherence through the implementation of "short-circuit logic", meaning that facts about the surrounding gameworld are (hopefully subtly) introduced and at a later date (also hopefully subtly) back-referenced. It's quite easy to see through it. The reality layer is very thin.

In my opinion, any percieved environment becomes "real" when there are just too many different variables/aspects which influence each other so that it becomes impossible to grasp the whole thing, or the "big picture".

 

[Dele]

Awesome. I've always preferred DFs adventure mode to the fortress mode, especially the combat system is unequaled when it comes to roguelikes.

Though i bet it wont be out until next summer or something.

 

[MisterStone]

I think DF Adventure Mode can be fun as a roguelike, but since he's going to stick with procedurally generated dialogue and suchlike it will not really quality as a full RPG in my opinion- people will still talk like retarded robots even when he's developed the game as much as he can in this respect, I think. Should still be pretty fun though.


One thing that looks fun is the inclusion of combat opportunity strikes and directed strikes... you can now just hack someone's head off if they are helpless.

 

[Haba]

Varies greatly between individuals. I've rather good imagination, so with games in the 80's and early 90's, I found myself filling in the gaps with my own imagination. The games showed very little and told you even less, so you had to make up what was left untold.

You must love larping through Oblivion then.

Not really. As we all know, Oblivion has too god damn many instances which break the immersion. And it does have a "story", so that leaves little space for larping.

And the older I get the less I am able to immerse myself in my own imagination.

 

[Destroid]

Oblivion is also a very explicit game - the graphics are designed to be completely show all there is, as opposed to older games like fallout where few characters have a face or even older games again where even less is shown. Those are the kinds of games that allow your imagination to fill the gaps. If everything is shown, this part of your brain does not activate. For RPGs less really can be more. It is why people are so easily able to become immersed in roguelikes and dwarf fortress, although engaging mechanics that distract the conscious mind to a high degree certainly help.

 

[zeitgeist]

If everything is shown, this part of your brain does not activate.

Very interesting point. Ambiguous looking sprites, text boxes with atmospheric descriptions of otherwise hard to see items, and so on. It's a level of abstraction between the game mechanics and the player that, as you said, gets filled in by the player's brain, and if done right, adds a lot to the entire experience. This can be done in practically all aspects of the game, not only the visuals. I'm afraid that we have lost this entire school of game design to "progress" for good though.

 

[Haba]

It is the same thing as reading books. Try reading a book that has occasionally large pictures in the midst of the text and see what happens.

 

[1eyedking]

Fucking LARPers.

 

[Unradscorpion]

DF adventure mode is a gimmick

 

[Tycn]

That, I can't see it competing with 'true' roguelikes even if it reaches a reasonable level of completion. I hope the damage model catches on however, it'd be perfect for a roguelike.

 

[MisterStone]

Yeah, I once suggested that Toady take all the wonderful mechanics from DF and make a simple roguelike out of it (damage system, combat, fluid mechanics, etc. etc.) since you could use this stuff to have super-awesome dungeons and the like. Of course fanboys started whining "but teh game will nevur get dun thennnn!!!". Not that I don't think Toady should finish his epic fantasy world generator... but is there any reason he can't use some of the stuff he's created here for less ambitious games as well?

 

[Destroid]

Yeah, I once suggested that Toady take all the wonderful mechanics from DF and make a simple roguelike out of it (damage system, combat, fluid mechanics, etc. etc.) since you could use this stuff to have super-awesome dungeons and the like. Of course fanboys started whining "but teh game will nevur get dun thennnn!!!". Not that I don't think Toady should finish his epic fantasy world generator... but is there any reason he can't use some of the stuff he's created here for less ambitious games as well?

Isn't that precisely what adventure mode is?

 

[MisterStone]

Sure, but the problem is it has to integrated into all of the other stuff involving civilizations, massive sites, world map region, history, relationships between hundreds of thousands of NPCs alive and dead, etc. etc.

I'm just saying he could make a game that uses some of the cool stuff such as wounds, combat, fluids, heat transfer, etc., but which takes place in a single dungeon like Crawl or Nethack, it would be finished into a playable game a lot sooner and could be a way to test out some of the features in the larger game.

 

[zeitgeist]

it would be finished into a playable game

This would be highly detrimental to the DF business model.

 

[MisterStone]

Yeah because Toady is getting rich continually developing a game that will never reach completion. Totally makes sense bro.

 

[L'ennui]

I've always preferred adventure mode in DF. It also makes me wish that other roguelikes (Dungeon Crawl, etc.) had such good combat systems. When (if) completed, this will be the best roguelike (with RPG elements) ever.

 

[MisterStone]

ITZ out now... anyone have time to play it? I'll def. give Adventurer Mode a whirl this evening.


(ITZ in this case refers to the latest version of DF)

 

[MisterStone]

Bros, anyone playing this yet? I just took a break and decided to try it out... First of all, villages are pretty nice, NPCs have more to say to you and sound less like retarded robots. There are lots of abilities to develop (although apparently most of the mental ones don't do much right now). I found that over-land travel is p. cool (it's zoomed in a bit from the older versions).

Also, someone told me not to travel around at night or the bogey-man will get me. I figured this was a dumb joke, so I went out walking outside of town and... a bunch of bogey-men ambushed me. I was only able to kill one by throwing a knife at it, they mobbed me pretty quick and killed me. So there is more out there to fight now besides the random wolf or elephant pack!

All in all, looking like a fun release so far...